Theft

Irish Traveling

Hi All,

My girlfriend's car was broken in to last night on the driveway of our house and her laptop was stolen out of the boot of the car. It is an encrypted work laptop so not a major cause for concern other than the obvious.

More of a concern for me is that there is no sign of forced entry and she is 99.9% sure she locked the car. It's rare that either of our cars are left unlocked. We've always had the habit of locking our cars.

Is it possible for someone to have unlocked an 2012 Audi A6 C7 without the keys and if so how (general details only)??

Thanks.

D.

bazz26

Any sign or forced entry to the car?

It is possible to program/clone the keys on some modern cars easily enough but I'd imagine if they managed to clone the key that they would have taken the car too. Or was there another car blocking the A6 from getting out of the driveway?

BTW there is a good bit of information on the web that covers security issues around hacking and cloning key fobs on certain makes of cars including Audi, BMW, etc.

Renegade Mechanic

Your keys omit a radio signal to your car when you press the button to unlock/lock the doors. Was any vehicles that didn't belong, parked nearby recently? It's possible for a dedicated device to capture the sent signal (it travels very far) and replicate it, unlocking the car. Some manufacturers use "rolling codes" to help combat it but I'm not sure which. There was a big furore over it a small few years back, concerning bmw iirc.

Irish Traveling

I didn't see anything unusual around with regards to strange cars in the area. It's a very sleep country road so I would have noticed.

I find it strange that it's so easy to clone the signal. Is there no encryption used I wonder for the open / lock signal?

pippip

Is she definite the laptop was in the car when she got home? could it have been taken earlier? in a petrol station or somewhere she stopped.

You hear of thieves checking for unlocked doors on estates where they check loads at a time but on a isolated country road sounds odd.

Any theft devices for blocking or copying signals would have to be close to the car when she locked it which makes me think you would have seen something.

As mentioned if they had to tech to clone a key the car would have been gone.

bazz26

There is no 100% hack proof security system especially when it comes to modern technology. Where there is a will there will always be a way.

Special Circumstances

The "rolling code" is the encryption - the last code that was broadcast is no good the next time unless you know the algorithm to generate the next code. Entirely possible that someone has a legitimate product for restricted use that has been copied or stolen or just plain sold without responsible vetting.

I think (don't know for definite) that remote central locking system "lock/unlock" is separate to the immobiliser/ignition "start".
So being able to clone or generate one signal doesn't necessarily mean you can clone or generate the other signal.
But it doesn't make much sense to have one without the other in fairness. A 5euro safety hammer will have you into into any car if you just want to grab laptops or handbags.

I'd invest in some extra security around your house.
Does your car have deadlocks? If so use them (won't help if there was a cloned key though).
Get a separate aftermarket alarm?

Check door jambs for scratches, thats where I saw them after a car I had was broken into. (passenger door).
Guards will send a scene of crime unit out to dust for prints. If they find a lot of glove prints ( if you get what I mean) then I would think they broke in mechanically rather than some fancy electronics.

Hachiko

what security is on the A6? surprised its so easy to get into. , must have a Thatcham C1 alarm?

ironclaw

Out of curiosity what does your OH do? It would be rare to go to the bother of opening a car and not actually steal it, considering the boot on the A6 (I'm assuming a saloon) is not visible to the outside (Why open a car if you don't know whats in it?) That your OH is being watched leaving a laptop in the boot, which is more concerning.

Irish Traveling

ironclaw, thar is my concern too. We are on a small country road and the car is parked off the road but yet some went to the trouble of breaking in!!

My OH is an engineering manger in a large construction firm.

Do Audi use "rolling codes"??

Special Circumstances

Irish Traveling wrote: »

ironclaw, thar is my concern too. We are on a small country road and the car is parked off the road but yet some went to the trouble of breaking in!!

My OH is an engineering manger in a large construction firm.

Do Audi use "rolling codes"??

Apartment car gates use rolling codes at this stage. I'm pretty sure Audi don't just bash out the same code day in day out.

Irish Traveling

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Apartment car gates use rolling codes at this stage. I'm pretty sure Audi don't just bash out the same code day in day out.

So does that discount the likelihood of someone close by "cloning the signal"?

Renegade Mechanic

Irish Traveling wrote: »

ironclaw, thar is my concern too. We are on a small country road and the car is parked off the road but yet some went to the trouble of breaking in!!

My OH is an engineering manger in a large construction firm.

Do Audi use "rolling codes"??

Most yokes do now, but back then they didn't. I'm gonna go out on a risky limb here and ask about the possibility of an opposing, equally large/larger firm being responsible. If a lot of trouble was gone to just get a single laptop which, as mentioned, must have been observed going into the boot if that's where it was broken into and no where else, was there important/sensitive information on it decryption tools are in common use too, unfortunately.

Irish Traveling

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Most yokes do now, but back then they didn't. I'm gonna go out on a risky limb here and ask about the possibility of an opposing, equally large/larger firm being responsible. If a lot of trouble was gone to just get a single laptop which, as mentioned, must have been observed going into the boot if that's where it was broken into and no where else, was there important/sensitive information on it decryption tools are in common use too, unfortunately.

The laptop is encrypted but there is little or no information on the laptop anyway. All work/data is stored on a cloud via citrix.

I'd be a little more comfortable if it had happened on a busy street in Dublin! The concern I have is someone went out of their way to find the car and it looks like they had the technology to get into the car!!!

Special Circumstances

Irish Traveling wrote: »

So does that discount the likelihood of someone close by "cloning the signal"?

Apparently not. I thought you would need high end gear. And you probably do to do it reliably or do it without being on hand when the person is locking the car. But it seems someone with some programming/electronic skills can make something that block the genuine signal, "record" it and play it back later. Blocking the signal while copying it properly would be difficult you'd think but it seems to be doable.

http://hackaday.com/2014/03/17/hacking-rolling-code-keyfobs/

How repeatable is the idea in theat link? You would imagine a high end car would use a longer key code than an apartment gate or whatever. Who knows for sure.

Renegade Mechanic

Irish Traveling wrote: »

The laptop is encrypted but there is little or no information on the laptop anyway. All work/data is stored on a cloud via citrix.

I'd be a little more comfortable if it had happened on a busy street in Dublin! The concern I have is someone went out of their way to find the car and it looks like they had the technology to get into the car!!!

Whoever they were, though it was worth getting, so I'd render it useless remotely if I were you, to be safe. Either that or they wanted to use it for something in which case I'd recommend handing it's serial number to the guards too.

Atlantic Dawn

Is it possible if the car is in range from the house to the car that the boot release button on the key was accidentally pressed at some stage opening the boot and then opportune thief took advantage of the open boot?

Special Circumstances

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is it possible if the car is in range from the house to the car that the boot release button on the key was accidentally pressed at some stage opening the boot and then opportune thief took advantage of the open boot?

Anything other than a random thief taking advantage of an accidently unlocked car or breaking in using mechanical tools sounds unlikely. But even that seems unlikely if there were no other incidents in surrounding areas - thief passed how many places on the wya and how many on the way back.
A strange one.

Atlantic Dawn

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Anything other than a random thief taking advantage of an accidently unlocked car or breaking in using mechanical tools sounds unlikely. But even that seems unlikely if there were no other incidents in surrounding areas - thief passed how many places on the wya and how many on the way back.
A strange one.

Yes I suppose could just be a general scummer out for a drive and noticed the book unlocked, has a quick look and spotted the laptop and took it, might not have been fully planned for that particular car.

mloc123

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Most yokes do now, but back then they didn't.

A three year old Audi doesn't use rolling codes? Seriously?

Renegade Mechanic

mloc123 wrote: »

A three year old Audi doesn't use rolling codes? Seriously?

Whoops, though it was a 07

Spook_ie

On the basis that

a. the laptop was not on display but hidden in the boot
b. no sign of forced entry
c. encrypted data on the laptop

I conclude the gf is a CIA undercover operative and the NSA did it, how well do you know her?

Sorry for a minute there I thought I was on Conspiracy Forum.


I'd go with the accidental unlocking ( does the boot spring up if you unlock it, would be like a flag to a causal passing thief ) or the gone before you even got home theories

ironclaw

@Spook_ie, corporate theft and espionage is a lot more widespread than you think. Its mega business both on the criminal and prevention side. If you are talking about tenders and contracts, perhaps worth millions, it starts to get interesting if you even have a remote edge on the competition. Its something I actively research and monitor as part of my daily job.

Its worthwhile considering the possibility, even briefly, if the person targeted is of a suitable managerial level and the nature of the theft. Granted, in this case, we have ascertained its highly unlikely but the question should be asked all the same. Its not in the realm of tin foil.

Irish Traveling

I'd still like to get a definite as to whether "signal cloning" is a possibility for a 2012 audi. This is what is really bugging me! I am still vulnerable if that is the case!!

Renegade Mechanic

Irish Traveling wrote: »

I'd still like to get a definite as to whether "signal cloning" is a possibility for a 2012 audi. This is what is really bugging me! I am still vulnerable if that is the case!!

See here.

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Apparently not. I thought you would need high end gear. And you probably do to do it reliably or do it without being on hand when the person is locking the car. But it seems someone with some programming/electronic skills can make something that block the genuine signal, "record" it and play it back later. Blocking the signal while copying it properly would be difficult you'd think but it seems to be doable.

http://hackaday.com/2014/03/17/hacking-rolling-code-keyfobs/

How repeatable is the idea in theat link? You would imagine a high end car would use a longer key code than an apartment gate or whatever. Who knows for sure.

beauf

I've heard of a few cars being stolen lately locally without the keys. If you google it, theres lots of articles about it.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2812962/How-car-thieves-use-hi-tech-scanners-reprogramme-electronic-keys-steal-luxury-cars.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/gone-in-24-hours-one-bmw-stolen-every-day-30621193.html

Might be time to go back to the 90's with all the steering wheel locks and chains.

mloc123

beauf wrote: »

I've heard of a few cars being stolen lately locally without the keys. If you google it, theres lots of articles about it.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2812962/How-car-thieves-use-hi-tech-scanners-reprogramme-electronic-keys-steal-luxury-cars.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/gone-in-24-hours-one-bmw-stolen-every-day-30621193.html

Might be time to go back to the 90's with all the steering wheel locks and chains.

Well known issue with BMW but not Audi.

Somebody posted on here a month or two ago about their A5 going missing, no keys stolen etc..

beauf

The article mentions Audi too no?

Spook_ie

Irish Traveling wrote: »

Hi All,

My girlfriend's car was broken in to last night on the driveway of our house and her laptop was stolen out of the boot of the car. It is an encrypted work laptop so not a major cause for concern other than the obvious.

More of a concern for me is that there is no sign of forced entry and she is 99.9% sure she locked the car. It's rare that either of our cars are left unlocked. We've always had the habit of locking our cars.

Is it possible for someone to have unlocked an 2012 Audi A6 C7 without the keys and if so how (general details only)??

Thanks.

D.

Just doing some googling and reading, would you have advanced keyless locking as per

and is there a possibility the car was parked within range of the fob? similar to TopGear in USA about 3.30 in

Hachiko

A car with a thatcham 1 alarm would be hard to steal by all accounts.

Special Circumstances

Hmm keyless entry angle is interesting. I wonder what the range is? Bit of an oversight if anyone can unlock the car by touching a door handle while your keys are in the drawer in the hall.

Move keys further away, or put in a metal box?

Irish Traveling

Nope , no keyless option on my car (I'll double check)!!

Is it looking more and more likely that the car was left unlocked and coincidentally some scumbag decided to check the door in my driveway on a sleepy quiet road on a random Thursday night!

El Horseboxo

I leave my work stuff in the trunk all the time while out driving. But I take it out when I get home. Anyways my point being, if somebody took my stuff it could of happened anywhere before I got home. Gym, gas station, the store, etc.

I got lucky once when I pressed the trunk release instead of the lock button. They make the same click noise. I was only running into the dry cleaners so was about 1 minute max. Any longer and the laptop, id and some powerful firearms could have walked which would have posed a lot of problems for me. Even within the minute there were 2 shady dudes looking nearby. Could something similar have happened your wife's car?

Irish Traveling

No, I certain the car was closed (if no locked!) and the theft happened while we were in bed.

El Horseboxo

Irish Traveling wrote: »

No, I certain the car was closed (if no locked!) and the theft happened while we were in bed.

So there is 100% no doubt that the laptop was in the trunk through visual confirmation when she pulled into your homes driveway and went into the house?

Does she usually leave the laptop there over night? If she does and it was taken from the driveway it's quite strange as it would appear that it was targeted. But you can run wild with any amount of theories if that's the train of thought. I'd be thinking it's less suspicious than it appears.

foambullets

Anything is possible I guess. I recall a few years ago that thieves were breaking into Subaru wrx's without any force and stealing the spare wheels and selling them on the likes of ebay. Most victims didn't even know they had been done until they checked or needed the spare wheel.

Irish Traveling

El Horseboxo wrote: »

So there is 100% no doubt that the laptop was in the trunk through visual confirmation when she pulled into your homes driveway and went into the house?

Does she usually leave the laptop there over night? If she does and it was taken from the driveway it's quite strange as it would appear that it was targeted. But you can run wild with any amount of theories if that's the train of thought. I'd be thinking it's less suspicious than it appears.

There is on doubt, it was definitely in the boot. Anywho, next step IP camera on the drive!!

Wibbs

Something similar happened in my friends suburban cul de sac a couple of years ago. A bunch of scum went down the road unlocking cars. None were stolen, just rifled through. My mate's van and his merc were opened. No sign of forced entry. The cops(when they finally bothered to show up ten hours later(not a typo) didn't seem at all surprised at any of this, or at least made no reference to it. The only car not touched was an older yoke with a third party alarm. So it seems some of the scum brigade have a way to open many modern cars without setting off alarms.

As mentioned earlier starting the car is a different ballgame. Though as the BMW experience showed not nearly an impossibility. More, when BMW finally responded to the public outcry in the UK and elsewhere they stated that this security hole was not confined to their cars(Merc vans were also a target). I also read of London metropolitan police stats(on Pistonheads IIRC) which again IIRC showed that of all cars stolen in the London area in 2012/13 just under half were taken without keys stolen in burglaries. Now unless half of Londoners are driving around in cars from the mid 90's that does seem worrying.

Indeed I also seem to recall in this very forum a thread where a guys dad's Audi was swiped in broad daylight from their driveway and they had both sets of keys?

In some ways it might be easier to steal some modern cars. In the bad old days of little security, people might fit a third party alarm, of which there would be many models from many different manufacturers. So if the scum did manage to bypass one type, the others would be still secure. Today with so many shared components and security systems, even across different ranges and manufacturers, once you crack the code many more cars are open for the taking. Plus such tech is much more readily available these days. Case in point the BMW key cloning robberies. The scums coder took around 30 seconds to clone the key whereas BMW's own in house systems at the time took something like 30 minutes.

Me being of a paranoid bent, would always fit a third party alarm regardless of the built in security, or how new the car was. I'd also add physical layers too. The more layers and the more the scum don't expect the more secure the car's gonna be.

Renegade Mechanic

^^^ 3M or similar tinting film. You don't even have to buy one with tint, just the adhesive film will do. It turns your side and rear windows into essential windscreens that are way more difficult to smash through. In short term contact, they're thrown projectile and melee proof, Ill find the demonstration video..

Renegade Mechanic

Found the video, this ones Llumar film. It absorbs and, importantly, distributes the impact force across the surface of the tensile glass. Now, I know, I know, I knoe, he goes a little easier on the protected window in the interests of marketing, but just observe what happens when the window actually breaks...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN1TnQtRUfw

The only problem is of course, a double edged sword. Should you find yourself trapped inside, getting out under your own steam will be nigh on impossible..

kirving

Though about putting the laminate on my car after seeing it as an unchecked option. To be honest I wouldn't be able to smash the window from inside the car myself without it anyway.

Working in automotive electronics, I'm certain that unlocking any modern car without they keys would certainly be possible, but would require a ridiculous level of inside knowledge and prohibitively expensive equipment. Of course one the unit is developed, that's game over.