Best way to improve Endurance?

Itziger

So, a tiny bit of explanation first and then onto the question. Like many before me, I have a problem converting 10k/Half marathon times to Marathon time.

ON PAPER, (Oh, I know) I should be able to go sub 3 as my Half time is 1.22.xx Just last Sunday took it from .32 to .04. The 10k time is similar enough, 37.07 though I think I'd probably sneak into the high 36 minute bracket now. The pb is from 12 months ago. I normally run very few 10ks but this year I have one or two lined up for May/June.

The Question: What is the best way of adding endurance? More Long Runs? Longer Long Runs? More LRs with target pace segments towards the end? More Threshold stuff? and so on. I did try a P&D plan once and a Daniels (with very few really Long Runs). Neither really worked

I'd be interested to hear a few angles.

Clearlier

Itziger wrote: »

So, a tiny bit of explanation first and then onto the question. Like many before me, I have a problem converting 10k/Half marathon times to Marathon time.

ON PAPER, (Oh, I know) I should be able to go sub 3 as my Half time is 1.22.xx Just last Sunday took it from .32 to .04. The 10k time is similar enough, 37.07 though I think I'd probably sneak into the high 36 minute bracket now. The pb is from 12 months ago. I normally run very few 10ks but this year I have one or two lined up for May/June.

The Question: What is the best way of adding endurance? More Long Runs? Longer Long Runs? More LRs with target pace segments towards the end? More Threshold stuff? and so on. I did try a P&D plan once and a Daniels (with very few really Long Runs). Neither really worked

I'd be interested to hear a few angles.

Why do you think that you need endurance? I'm not saying that you're wrong but there's not a massive drop off in time between your 10k and half marathon times and certainly less than most people who clearly do require endurance work. With those two times on their own I'd see you as a borderline sub-3 candidate who would probably do it on a good day with a good build up but who might fall down on a day like DCM '14. I'd also think that you might go 2:55 with a subsequent 18 week P&D (or similar) plan that pushed their mileage a little if you had the level of fitness for those times at the start of a training plan.

average_runner

I would add some core work in there, core really shows over the longer distance.

Also add a 20 mile run 4 weeks out at your target pace, if you can do that it will give you confidence.

Keep up the speed work in the plan, do a few 5k races, even do a 15 mile run and then finish off with a parkrun!!

Itziger

Clearlier wrote: »

Why do you think that you need endurance? I'm not saying that you're wrong but there's not a massive drop off in time between your 10k and half marathon times and certainly less than most people who clearly do require endurance work. With those two times on their own I'd see you as a borderline sub-3 candidate who would probably do it on a good day with a good build up but who might fall down on a day like DCM '14. I'd also think that you might go 2:55 with a subsequent 18 week P&D (or similar) plan that pushed their mileage a little if you had the level of fitness for those times at the start of a training plan.

That would be because of this > 3:09 Marathon PB.

I know it's not as simple as 'do more long runs and you won't have a problem with endurance on the day'.

Itziger

average_runner wrote: »

I would add some core work in there, core really shows over the longer distance.

Also add a 20 mile run 4 weeks out at your target pace, if you can do that it will give you confidence.

Keep up the speed work in the plan, do a few 5k races, even do a 15 mile run and then finish off with a parkrun!!

Jeez, that sounds like an awful lot of miles at M pace! 'Twould want to give you confidence.

walshb

Your 10 k time is very good. I would think the only way to improve your endurance would be to knock out 15-20 k training runs regularly at varying paces. Your half marathon is very close to your PB for 10 in relative terms. Little more miles and you should see that 82 creep south.

pconn062

I would suggest your issue is not with endurance (a 1.22 half marathon shows you have good endurance compared to your 10k IMO). Have you ever completed a full cycle of 5/10k specific training before a marathon phase? A lot of people don't do this but the majority of elite runners max out there 5/10k potential before moving onto the marathon specific phase, even the good marathon runners on here preempt their marathon block with 5/10k work. If you could knock a minute of your 10k time it should help you get close to 80 mins for the 1/2.

Itziger

pconn062 wrote: »

I would suggest your issue is not with endurance (a 1.22 half marathon shows you have good endurance compared to your 10k IMO). Have you ever completed a full cycle of 5/10k specific training before a marathon phase? A lot of people don't do this but the majority of elite runners max out there 5/10k potential before moving onto the marathon specific phase, even the good marathon runners on here preempt their marathon block with 5/10k work. If you could knock a minute of your 10k time it should help you get close to 80 mins for the 1/2.

I'd be looking to do both of those, that is get the 10k into the 36 mins and the Half down towards 1.20.xx. What I'm not so confident of is the bleedin' 42.2k distance!

RayCun

It's only one marathon where you've gone for sub 3 and missed, isn't it?

Itziger

RayCun wrote: »

It's only one marathon where you've gone for sub 3 and missed, isn't it?

Yeah, Ray. Before that I was aiming for 3.10 and had similar problems achieving that. I have a history of cramping in the marathon. Ranging from lying on road in pain (15 to 20 minutes lost) to keeping the cramp at bay and adapting stride to ward off full blown version (2 minutes or so lost in second half of 'best' marathon).

I agree I should do more on core strength.

demfad

Itziger wrote: »

Yeah, Ray. Before that I was aiming for 3.10 and had similar problems achieving that. I have a history of cramping in the marathon. Ranging from lying on road in pain (15 to 20 minutes lost) to keeping the cramp at bay and adapting stride to ward off full blown version (2 minutes or so lost in second half of 'best' marathon).

I agree I should do more on core strength.

Your times do suggest the endurance side needs to be worked on.

If you're cramping and having leg trouble then your issue is most likely muscular endurance, but most likely you would run out of fuel also at your potential pace.

(You need to give more background otherwise we are only speculating.)

What are your mileage levels?
What long runs did you do?
What specific runs did you do?
Fueling during specific runs and the race?

High mileage is the number one requirement for a marathon.

Most marathoners overtrain on the speed side (> MP) and under train on the endurance side (< MP).

The marathon has a lot more in common with a 50k ultra than with a half.

If you want to run a 50k fast you would need a lot of miles right?
Same for a 42.2k.

average_runner

Itziger wrote: »

Jeez, that sounds like an awful lot of miles at M pace! 'Twould want to give you confidence.

I wasn't a fan of it, but a coach at the club insisted on it and the lads who did the work, flew through it and had a great marathon!

Clearlier

average_runner wrote: »

I wasn't a fan of it, but a coach at the club insisted on it and the lads who did the work, flew through it and had a great marathon!

I'd be thinking that 15 is plenty, perhaps even too much depending on the runner. IME 20 @ marathon pace is too much and will have a detrimental effect on race performance. However we're just talking about one run and as always it would need to be put in the context of the overall plan.

Itziger

Demfad, I didn't really want this to turn into a 'How can I go sub3' thread, but rather, how can an average runner improve endurance if that is what seems to be the problem.

From what I've read on here over the years, there are more people who have trouble with converting Half times into decent Full equivalents than there are people who have good Half times (and Marathon times) but who are correspondingly 'slow' at 10k. I do know of one or two of the latter but quite a few of the former!

Itziger

Clearlier wrote: »

I'd be thinking that 15 is plenty, perhaps even too much depending on the runner. IME 20 @ marathon pace is too much and will have a detrimental effect on race performance. However we're just talking about one run and as always it would need to be put in the context of the overall plan.

I've seen 15 miles mentioned in a few places, blogs and such like but never 20. I'd be wary, personally. Before my last I did 14 miles @ MP.

There is a Garmin (Advanced) plan that suggest a 3 hour run with the last at MP. First two Easy.

Next up for me is NYC Nov 1st. Not sure yet what target will be or whether to go for it in another race a few weeks earlier and leave New York for the experience.

average_runner

Itziger wrote: »

I've seen 15 miles mentioned in a few places, blogs and such like but never 20. I'd be wary, personally. Before my last I did 14 miles @ MP.

There is a Garmin (Advanced) plan that suggest a 3 hour run with the last at MP. First two Easy.

Next up for me is NYC Nov 1st. Not sure yet what target will be or whether to go for it in another race a few weeks earlier and leave New York for the experience.

I did New York two years ago, its not a course for a PB. I would just go out and enjoy the experience, which is something. You will have a great time

dublin runner

I would only recommend this for a highly trained experienced runner and even at that that approach is questionable. It's risk vs. reward. I would suggest that people who can run 20 miles @MP relatively comfortably either have a soft marathon target or may price the price come race day.

I did the Athlone 3/4 a few years ago @MP. Did it feel ok? Yes. I went on the run the Dublin marathon a month later at the same pace. I really don't think Athlone helped in any way. In truth my marathon target was a touch soft.

Regarding cramp. It's is not always fatigued related. I know for me is not.

dna_leri

Itziger wrote: »

Yeah, Ray. Before that I was aiming for 3.10 and had similar problems achieving that. I have a history of cramping in the marathon. Ranging from lying on road in pain (15 to 20 minutes lost) to keeping the cramp at bay and adapting stride to ward off full blown version (2 minutes or so lost in second half of 'best' marathon).

I agree I should do more on core strength.

Itziger wrote: »

Demfad, I didn't really want this to turn into a 'How can I go sub3' thread, but rather, how can an average runner improve endurance if that is what seems to be the problem.

I know nothing about running a marathon so I will not give you advice. But...

Maybe there are two different questions here.
1. how can an average runner improve endurance?
2. how can I avoid getting cramps in the marathon?

Don't assume the answer is the same and while core-strength is a good thing (so is apple pie) it is unlikely to be the answer to either question.

I'll leave the replies to the experts but you probably won't get there without answers to the questions posed by demfad.

Clearlier

dna_leri wrote: »

I know nothing about running a marathon so I will not give you advice. But...

Maybe there are two different questions here.
1. how can an average runner improve endurance?
2. how can I avoid getting cramps in the marathon?

Don't assume the answer is the same and while core-strength is a good thing (so is apple pie) it is unlikely to be the answer to either question.

I'll leave the replies to the experts but you probably won't get there without answers to the questions posed by demfad.

I think that DNA is hitting the nail here.

As a general guide to improving endurance it's run more, run more often, run long (2 hrs+) more often. That's pretty generic but will work (assuming appropriate progression) for most beginner to intermediate runners. The closer a runner gets to their limits though the more individualised the training plan needs to be to generate further improvements.

average_runner

dublin runner wrote: »

I would only recommend this for a highly trained experienced runner and even at that that approach is questionable. It's risk vs. reward. I would suggest that people who can run 20 miles @MP relatively comfortably either have a soft marathon target or may price the price come race day.

I did the Athlone 3/4 a few years ago @MP. Did it feel ok? Yes. I went on the run the Dublin marathon a month later at the same pace. I really don't think Athlone helped in any way. In truth my marathon target was a touch soft.

Regarding cramp. It's is not always fatigued related. I know for me is not.

They are all mainly sub 3 runners or sub 3:10. Different strokes for different folks.

Itziger

Just to clear up a couple of the obvious questions. For the last marathon (Frankfurt, pre-riots) I did a Daniels 2Q plan which meant approx 6 days a week running but, strangely, only 2 Longies of about 20 miles. Weekly mileage peaked at about 70 IIRC, I haven't got the book here to check.

Previous preps were slightly lower mileage. I'm thinking of designing my own plan for this Autumn. Vaguely thinking of breaking it up into 4 week blocks where the Sunday run would be (Long Easy, L.E, L. but with MPM, Slight step back) x 4.

Other Quality midweek session to be decided.

menoscemo

This may be purely personal but for me the only way that my full times started to line up with my other times was when I started training for a few ultras. That involved lots of back to back long runs (20+20, 25+15, 30+10 etc). None of the long runs involved anything other than time on feet and were generally run more than a minute slower than MP.

I went from being a 1:32 half runner with a 3:32 marathon to being a 1:29 half runner with a 3:10 marathon in one conn ultra cycle a few years ago. Since then I haven't trained for ultras again but have maintained this 'endurance'.

So basically I think that lots of slow miles and long runs rather than specific MP/LT work are the key to improving marathon endurance.

ger664

+1 to menoscemo. I was the same until I started doing back to back long runs. Took 20 mins off my marathon PB while my 10K only came down by a minute over the same cycle last year.

PaulieYifter

I'm no expert.
My half PB is 1:25:30 and my marathon PB is 2:58:06.
I've 'raced' more marathons than 1/2s though.
Don't think my mileage has ever got to 70 miles a week.
Having said that all of my training since I've started this running lark has been basically training for marathons viz. 3 to 4 month cycles training for 2 to 3 marathons a year only interrupted by injury.

Lots in my club would be well faster at all distances up to the 1/2 but not at the marathon.

For me I think the experience of racing marathons coupled with consistent training and a proper preparation the week before the marathon and decent conditions on the day along with a good dose of self belief make it happen.

Have you read Steve Magness - the Science of Running? There's lots of good stuff in there about marathon specific training the systems you need to train to support you during the races.

demfad

Itziger wrote: »

Just to clear up a couple of the obvious questions. For the last marathon (Frankfurt, pre-riots) I did a Daniels 2Q plan which meant approx 6 days a week running but, strangely, only 2 Longies of about 20 miles. Weekly mileage peaked at about 70 IIRC, I haven't got the book here to check.

Previous preps were slightly lower mileage. I'm thinking of designing my own plan for this Autumn. Vaguely thinking of breaking it up into 4 week blocks where the Sunday run would be (Long Easy, L.E, L. but with MPM, Slight step back) x 4.

Other Quality midweek session to be decided.

I think you should take head of what clearlier and menonesco etc have said.

You need to improve you're general endurance first. High mileage and long runs, or very long runs will do it. You'd need to do strides to counterbalance IMO. (15-35s x 6-18)

Anyway. Viewing the marathon as an ultra is the right mindset. It is.

If you want to improve specific endurance for the race then you need to work on the endurance side of race pace. ie 90-95% of race pace.

If you could get to running 2:45 @ 90% of your race pace this would have a serious affect on your PB.

If you could build to run 15+ miles @ 95% of race pace likewise.

You need to run fast for a long time. The above sessions achieve this.

A long interval session (up to 20k) @ HM pace will also help strenght endurance.

You dont have to run any faster then that just use relaxed aerobic strides (as above) to keep form in check.

I think you could target 2:50 by concentrating on endurance as follows:

Phase 1:

3 months to increase mileage into new territory. Keep general sessions (long intervals tempo-the usual) but :

shorten the sessions or
run them steadier AND
have an extra days recovery

Development Race every 3-4 weeks (5ks) for mind and soul. Start the race steady for development: eg first 1-2k @10k pace.

Use strides to help with form/pace in sessions and races/injury prevention

Phase 2. General training

Mix and match sessions to target all zones. Race as before pick the odd key race a 10k, maybe finsish this phase with a HM (youll PB)

Phase 3:

Marathon training concentrating on specific stuff (endurance training as above)

Thats what id reckon. Otherwise you'll just be improving your endurance by small amounts over several years.

Most of the improvement lies there. Target it by increasing mileage and doing long fast runs (or very long slow runs and double runs like menonesco or do both)

Itziger

Great stuff Demfad, thanks a lot. One question for ya. Would it be an idea to break up a 4 week cycle as follows. Weekend runs only:

Sat, medium long (20k) Sunday, Long (30k) Both Easy
Sat, med. long (22k) Sunday, Long (32) Both Easy
Sat, med long (22k) Sunday Long (32) Both Easy
Sat, rest, Sunday Long but with some kms @ MP or 90% of MP in there.

What does that sound like? I'm not saying I'd go straight into 20/30 weekend. I could build it up from a slightly lower starting point for the first few weeks.

Also, if I do the two longish runs on Sat and Sun, would I be better taking Mon and Fri rest and doing a bit of Threshold stuff on Wed and the other two days easy?

rom

Outline a sample week training with pace and distance for each sessions. If you can't translate half in full times then its not going long enough and or going too fast when doing so.

demfad

Itziger wrote: »

Great stuff Demfad, thanks a lot. One question for ya. Would it be an idea to break up a 4 week cycle as follows. Weekend runs only:

Sat, medium long (20k) Sunday, Long (30k) Both Easy
Sat, med. long (22k) Sunday, Long (32) Both Easy
Sat, med long (22k) Sunday Long (32) Both Easy
Sat, rest, Sunday Long but with some kms @ MP or 90% of MP in there.

What does that sound like? I'm not saying I'd go straight into 20/30 weekend. I could build it up from a slightly lower starting point for the first few weeks.

Also, if I do the two longish runs on Sat and Sun, would I be better taking Mon and Fri rest and doing a bit of Threshold stuff on Wed and the other two days easy?

I'm not an expert in the doubles stuff so youre best to ask the ultra guys for the doubles structure, paces time of day (evening/next morning etc).

You could intermix a double with a faster single the following weekend so that its not a massive change (injury).

First of all. Are you a fast oriented marathon runner or a slow twitch guy? What does your gut say? Fast or slow side for marathon? What sessions do you prefer?

The thing that will help you most is increasing mileage. I would do that first.

If youre highest before was 70 miles, look at increasing your mileage to average that. That takes time that you may not have. But to improve general endurance the mileage you run should be high for YOU. That will make you faster.

If you want to make a breakthrough at any distance the answer for most of us here is to safely increase mileage. That promotes you to the next league up, simple as that.

menoscemo

Itziger wrote: »

Great stuff Demfad, thanks a lot. One question for ya. Would it be an idea to break up a 4 week cycle as follows. Weekend runs only:

Sat, medium long (20k) Sunday, Long (30k) Both Easy
Sat, med. long (22k) Sunday, Long (32) Both Easy
Sat, med long (22k) Sunday Long (32) Both Easy
Sat, rest, Sunday Long but with some kms @ MP or 90% of MP in there.

What does that sound like? I'm not saying I'd go straight into 20/30 weekend. I could build it up from a slightly lower starting point for the first few weeks.

Also, if I do the two longish runs on Sat and Sun, would I be better taking Mon and Fri rest and doing a bit of Threshold stuff on Wed and the other two days easy?

I was doing Back to back long runs at the weekend (all easy) and coming up to the marathon was getting in a midweek MP session (up to 12 -13 miles @ MP). I started the MP sessions with about 8 miles I think 6 weeks out. before that I was just doing a track session with the club during the week.

Surprisingly my Marathon results were much much better than my ultra results despite lack of taper for the marathons, I also managed to bag a 5 mile PB in this period which still actually stands

ThePiedPiper

Itziger, while meno's approach would likely work, it may not be feasible from a time perspective. I used to have issues with endurance, but have taken steps to address it. These are a few of the things that have made a difference.
1. A longer, long run: I push the boat out once every marathon cycle to 23 miles over a difficult route, usually time on feet close to 2:55
2. Long runs up to 20 miles run on total empty, no water, no fuel. No pace focus on these, but generally60-80 seconds a mile slower than target MP.
3. Building up to 14/15 miles consecutively at MP during a long run.
4. Long running streaks, solid 60-70 mpw for 3 months.
5. Higher mileage. I can't personally sustain 80-100 mpw for long periods, but at one stage did 325 miles on a 19 day block, felt it had huge benefits.
6. Running long on tired legs. That might take the form of 15-18 miles the day after a race, or consecutive long runs if possible.
6. More focus on 5-10k speed work, makes the marathon pace easier.
7. Smarter race strategy. All the above prepare you well, but appropriate fuel and pacing are the cherry on top.

These things have led to being able to achieve to within 1-2 mins of McMillan marathon predictions, 79:52 HM vs 2:49:00 full.

As with all things running, a lot of different ways to skin a cat, and most important thing is to adapt an approach that can fit in with your personal life in the long term. A happier, more relaxed runner maks a better runner.

Itziger

ThePiedPiper wrote: »

Itziger, while meno's approach would likely work, it may not be feasible from a time perspective. I used to have issues with endurance, but have taken steps to address it. These are a few of the things that have made a difference.
1. A longer, long run: I push the boat out once every marathon cycle to 23 miles over a difficult route, usually time on feet close to 2:55
2. Long runs up to 20 miles run on total empty, no water, no fuel. No pace focus on these, but generally60-80 seconds a mile slower than target MP.
3. Building up to 14/15 miles consecutively at MP during a long run.
4. Long running streaks, solid 60-70 mpw for 3 months.
5. Higher mileage. I can't personally sustain 80-100 mpw for long periods, but at one stage did 325 miles on a 19 day block, felt it had huge benefits.
6. Running long on tired legs. That might take the form of 15-18 miles the day after a race, or consecutive long runs if possible.
6. More focus on 5-10k speed work, makes the marathon pace easier.
7. Smarter race strategy. All the above prepare you well, but appropriate fuel and pacing are the cherry on top.

These things have led to being able to achieve to within 1-2 mins of McMillan marathon predictions, 79:52 HM vs 2:49:00 full.

As with all things running, a lot of different ways to skin a cat, and most important thing is to adapt an approach that can fit in with your personal life in the long term. A happier, more relaxed runner maks a better runner.

I remember you mentioning that tough 23 miler alright. Thanks for the tips. Of course you're right about the training having to fit in with your life (wife!) and what not. If I do try the doubles, at least one of em will have to be nice and early. As for your Half to Full times...... can only dream of that. Your Half is 2.12 seconds faster than mine, your Full 20 minutes.