Conveyancing in Ireland - what's the reason for it taking so long?

noniej

Full disclosure first - I'm formerly BattyinNZ but am going home soon so I've created a new account.

Question (and I'd love an honest answer from a solicitor or real estate agent to this) WHY does conveyancing take so long in Ireland? You can buy a house in NZ and be settled and living in it within a month. The Title and all the bits that go with it have been checked, the mortgage is discharged and everything is legal and above board.

I've looked up the process in Ireland online and when you know what you're looking at it's a load of waffle that solicitors use to waste time and extract more money.

Also, if an offer is accepted that's obviously enough for the seller why does the agent keep advertising? Why do the buyers, and the sellers, allow this to happen? If buyers refused to put up with this behaviour then agents would have to start behaving properly.

Anyway, I'd love to know why conveyancing can't be completed in, say, a month. Seems entirely reasonable to me.

MarkAnthony

It can be done in a month. The problem is that people are in chains and string it along to suit themselves. There is nothing to stop you as the buyer making a condition that the sign comes down and the property comes off the website. That's how I went about it. You can also get contracts signed in good time which also prevents shenanigans in relation to better offers.

You've also got some solicitors firms that just plod along. Most work on a fixed fee so it's not about extracting more money - again it's an ill informed buyer that goes on a per-hours basis.

There are however a number of things that need to be resolved and Ireland doesn't have a laid back reputation for nothing, it genuinely is laid back with many of the institutions involved taking their sweet time over things.

noniej

Thanks MarkAnthony - good to know.

Uno my Uno.

MarkAnthony is pretty much on the money with his answer. Conveyancing can be done swiftly, less than a month in some cases but ultimately buying a house is a serious decision and comes with significant risks. It is worth taking the time to do it right and make sure everything is as it should be.

Sometimes delays can be put down to Solicitors being slow about their work (although they won't be increasing their fees by doing that) but in my experience most delays are caused either, buyers having problems with their mortgage or sellers who do not have everything in order when they said they did. People sometimes try to reduce a conveyance to a simple function of the buyer gives money and the seller gives property it shouldn't take long, but in truth there is a lot more to it. I have seen sales delayed for weeks waiting for a simple piece of paper showing the Property Tax has been paid, it shouldn't take that long to get a hold of but sometimes it does.

Every time I deal with a buyer who is excited because the seller wants to complete a sale asap or within 3 weeks my heart sinks. Invariably when a seller is looking to complete quickly or with undue haste there is a problem coming down the road. Often it is an issue with planning permission which will mean it could be weeks or even months before the the contracts are signed. On other occasions the seller's mortgage is in arrears and bank consent is required before closing, typically this is only discovered by the buyer days before close when the consent has not arrived as promised and the closing has to be put back a week or two.

The Good news is that the days of retrieving stacks of deeds and having to check them are almost fully behind us thanks to compulsory registration. Conveying registered land is very straightforward when it comes to title and that takes much of difficulty out of the process.

noniej

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

People sometimes try to reduce a conveyance to a simple function of the buyer gives money and the seller gives property it shouldn't take long, but in truth there is a lot more to it.

I think the process needs to be regulated - I've worked in real estate in New Zealand for 6 years and it really is that simple here. You don't buy a house unless you have your finance in place (seems pretty obvious to me) but you can put a condition that the purchase is subject to finance but maximum I've seen has been two weeks for this. There are conditions attached to the purchase by the purchaser (building inspection etc) and once those have been fulfilled the contract goes unconditional - usually within 10 working days. Neither party can pull out at this stage. A date for settlement is agreed when the offer is accepted and interest is charged on either party if they delay. It only takes more than a month by mutual agreement.

Sounds attractive doesn't it?

Uno my Uno.

noniej wrote: »

I think the process needs to be regulated - I've worked in real estate in New Zealand for 6 years and it really is that simple here. You don't buy a house unless you have your finance in place (seems pretty obvious to me) but you can put a condition that the purchase is subject to finance but maximum I've seen has been two weeks for this. There are conditions attached to the purchase by the purchaser (building inspection etc) and once those have been fulfilled the contract goes unconditional - usually within 10 working days. Neither party can pull out at this stage. A date for settlement is agreed when the offer is accepted and interest is charged on either party if they delay. It only takes more than a month by mutual agreement.

Sounds attractive doesn't it?

That is essentially the situation here currently, the process is heavily regulated with a well defined set of steps for each side to follow, the entire process should take no more than 6 weeks. Conditional contracts aren't typical here because they are of limited use.

As I said it's usually clients who cause the delay in one form or another, sellers will try and insist that a buyer take a property without proper opinions on planning (which the bank won't permit) or buyers are stuck in a chain etc.

There are certainly some improvements that could be made but my point is that the process isn't the problem per se, rather it is the people involved who cause the delays.

on_my_oe

Something that does need to be considered in this age of 'negative equity' is a requirement for sellers in NE to have formal permission in writing that the property can be sold without further delay subject to a sale price of €xxx,xxx. There is a long thread on boards of buyers getting screwed around for months - and in some cases, years - by sellers and banks playing games.

I've also lived in NZ and the property process is significantly quicker there. If a new build isn't delivered on time, a penalty is payable; this does mean that builders give long delivery dates but in exchange you don't get six different dates given withe first five a fairy tale.

The quickest my parents brought a house in NZ was nine days; viewed Wednesday night, contract subject to finance the Thursday, Land Information Memorandum (LIM report) the Friday, survey in the Monday, and collected the keys on the Friday to move in on the Saturday.
They also had to sell in NE in 1988 in the stock market crash; a meeting with the bank, permission granted, and we were moving out within a month as it was 'keenly priced', so it was completed quickly.

Uno my Uno.

on_my_oe wrote: »

Something that does need to be considered in this age of 'negative equity' is a requirement for sellers in NE to have formal permission in writing that the property can be sold without further delay subject to a sale price of €xxx,xxx. There is a long thread on boards of buyers getting screwed around for months - and in some cases, years - by sellers and banks playing games.

I've also lived in NZ and the property process is significantly quicker there. If a new build isn't delivered on time, a penalty is payable; this does mean that builders give long delivery dates but in exchange you don't get six different dates given withe first five a fairy tale.

The quickest my parents brought a house in NZ was nine days; viewed Wednesday night, contract subject to finance the Thursday, Land Information Memorandum (LIM report) the Friday, survey in the Monday, and collected the keys on the Friday to move in on the Saturday.
They also had to sell in NE in 1988 in the stock market crash; a meeting with the bank, permission granted, and we were moving out within a month as it was 'keenly priced', so it was completed quickly.

That is amazingly quick, what exactly is an LIM?

Clearly the sellers were ready to go, title in order, contract drafted before the house was ever on the market. Here it is not uncommon for sellers to wait until going sale agreed before contacting their solicitor.

As for the bank approval, that's a whole other ball game!!!

on_my_oe

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

That is amazingly quick, what exactly is an LIM?

It's basically a council report listing their knowledge of any local issues, planning arrangements, etc


About LIMs (taken from the Auckland City Council website)
http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/ratesbuildingproperty/propertyinformation/Pages/LIMhome.aspx
A Land Information Memorandum (LIM) report is a summary of information that we hold on a property.
When you apply for a LIM, we prepare a report that may include the following property information:
special land features or characteristics (including potential erosion, slippage or subsidence)
private and public stormwater and sewerage drains
any rates that may be owing in relation to the land
information concerning building, plumbing/drainage, and resource planning consents (including notice, order or requisition affecting the land or any building)
special conditions including NZ Historic Places Trust listings
any information which has been notified to the council by any statutory organisation in terms of any other act
network utility in relation to the Building Act 1991 or 2004.
Other useful property information includes:
council's complete property file
council district and regional plans
professional reports by companies e.g. a building inspection service.

on_my_oe

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

That is amazingly quick, what exactly is an LIM?

Clearly the sellers were ready to go, title in order, contract drafted before the house was ever on the market. Here it is not uncommon for sellers to wait until going sale agreed before contacting their solicitor.

As for the bank approval, that's a whole other ball game!!!

In NZ, the estate agent prepares the contract and it is signed by both parties before being sent to their solicitors; the agent usually includes the special conditions, most usually 'subject to finance, LIM report and satisfactory building inspection'. Usually there is a settlement date included at time of signing, commonly set on the Friday four weeks away (Friday is usually settlement day).

I'm not sure about Ireland, but in NZ estate agents must take a course in property law, ethics etc before applying for a licence, which also helps the process.

http://www.openpolytechnic.ac.nz/subjects-and-courses/real-estate

Uno my Uno.

on_my_oe wrote: »

In NZ, the estate agent prepares the contract and it is signed by both parties before being sent to their solicitors; the agent usually includes the special conditions, most usually 'subject to finance, LIM report and satisfactory building inspection'. Usually there is a settlement date included at time of signing, commonly set on the Friday four weeks away (Friday is usually settlement day).

I'm not sure about Ireland, but in NZ estate agents must take a course in property law, ethics etc before applying for a licence, which also helps the process.

http://www.openpolytechnic.ac.nz/subjects-and-courses/real-estate

Something like the LIM would be very useful and would certainly make the process easier, however it looks like it is prepared by the local council, I would have my doubts that the councils here would be in a position to provide something similar without a significant injection of resources.

Estate agents here are neither Licencsed nor are they required To sit any exams. Anyone with a bad tie and a cheesy grin can call themselves an estate agent, a lot of them have difficulties drafting ads never mind contracts.

noniej

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Something like the LIM would be very useful and would certainly make the process easier, however it looks like it is prepared by the local council, I would have my doubts that the councils here would be in a position to provide something similar without a significant injection of resources.

Estate agents here are neither Licencsed nor are they required To sit any exams. Anyone with a bad tie and a cheesy grin can call themselves an estate agent, a lot of them have difficulties drafting ads never mind contracts.

on_my_oe is correct in his/her comments. It's highly regulated here and highly publicised if anything untoward goes on. I like your comment about the agents over there. Well, I don't actually 'like' it but it's funny :-)