Not sure if I have a case after walking out of a bar

Tazer

Hi guys,

Not really sure if this is the right forum for this discussion, if not, apologies.

So basically yesterday, Paddys day, I came into work in a large hotel and bar in the city at 10am in the morning after working until 5.30am, 4.5 hours before my shift. I came in and went along with my normal duties of setting up the bar etc. When I returned to another bar within the establishment, I was made fun of by the senior manager in front of 2 colleagues which to me, was humiliating and very annoying, especially being very tired from the night before.

So I let it go and tried not to think about it and went on serving. After this, the same manager tells me to go get the till from downstairs and commenting in a demeaning matter that it's "the first bit of work I've done all week". This is after working a 12 hour shift the night before from 6pm to 5.30am and returning to work 4 hours later only getting 1 hour of sleep (I live in Swords, which is a 1 hour bus journey from the city). Before this, on Sunday, I worked from 12pm to 6.30pm without a break and finished at 10.30 that night. Along with this, I've worked 40 hours that week.

So after hearing this, I lost my temper and told my manager to f*** off and returned to the bar, not wanting to leave my colleague on her own on a busy day. I decided in my head that I would finish my shift when I'm supposed to at 3pm so as to not leave the staff short. Shorty after this I was called down for a meeting with my 2 managers.

They asked me why I told him off and what my problem is. I told them that his comments were as good as bullying as I was overworked and felt like **** working for such a person. They then teamed up on me saying that "I'm not a professional bartender" and that "I was lazy and not a good member of the team". I was there on my own and it felt like they were teaming up on me. A supervisor was walking by behind us and I wanted him to be present but they threatened to not get him involved. I didn't really want him either as I didn't want to put his job in jeopardy, he's in his late 40s...has kids etc. Whereas I'm 24 and don't see a career in bartending in my future, just working through college which I'm finishing this year at the end of April.

After this they told me to leave for the day and that we will have a meeting on Thursday. I received an email from HR requesting the meeting today.

My question is, do I have any rights here as I'm not sure if I can be fired and I don't want to go back to work in this place again under these conditions. Money is tight at the moment with rent etc. and I need to work. Do I have any argument when I meet with them tomorrow or can they just suggest that I don't come back thus making me leave off my own accord? Any advice would be greatly appreciated and if this is the not the right place to ask sorry. Regards.

Pro Hoc Vice

You need proper legal advice which is not allowed on this forum. Google constructive dismissal.

MarkAnthony

Get proper legal advice. An employment solicitor won't be expensive in the scheme of things and will set you right in relation to what you can expect at the hearing. Most companies hoist themselves by their own petards in these cases.

Unfortunately losing then rag won't have helped (as understandable as it was); this just underscores the need to run all this by someone.

mountain

The gap between your working hours seems to be very short as well,

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/rest_periods_and_breaks.html

Little CuChulainn

Arrive at your HR meeting with a solicitor.

MarkAnthony

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Arrive at your HR meeting with a solicitor.

There's no need to do this unless the solicitor thinks it's necessary. You're better off not putting them on notice that you have legal advice. The other issue is at €250+VAT per hour an employer that wants to piss you about will do if they know you're on the clock making it way more stressful for you.

Follow the solicitors advice and make sure they're contactable on the phone during your hearing.

Stheno

How long are you working there? If its less than a year you've very little comeback

mada82

I'm no expert but if you report that manager for bullying they are obliged to investigate.

I used to have to deal with managers with bad attitudes years ago when I worked part time while in school.

Threatening the manager in question worked on that occasion.

I certainly wouldn't let anyone away with forcing me out the door.

Tazer

Stheno wrote: »

How long are you working there? If its less than a year you've very little comeback

I'm working there since the 2nd week of December 2014, so just over 1 year and 3 months.

I'm no expert but if you report that manager for bullying they are obliged to investigate.

I used to have to deal with managers with bad attitudes years ago when I worked part time while in school.

Threatening the manager in question worked on that occasion.

I certainly wouldn't let anyone away with forcing me out the door.

I might try this, I have no care left for the establishment and imagining the smug look on both of their faces makes me want to do this, however I'm not really the type that normally does stuff like this.

Does anybody know how I could just try conclude this on the day of the meeting and what I may be entitled to in terms of pay? Maybe 2 weeks work payed for after I leave or something? I just want to move on. Thanks for all of the replies.

Stheno

Tazer wrote: »

I'm working there since the 2nd week of December 2014, so just over 1 year and 3 months.


Does anybody know how I could just try conclude this on the day of the meeting and what I may be entitled to in terms of pay? Maybe 2 weeks work payed for after I leave or something? I just want to move on. Thanks for all of the replies.

Do you mean 2013?

If you quit at the meeting you are entitled to be paid what you are owed

deise08

If you quit you won't be able to claim the dole.

I would be very worried about your working hours and breaks between them. I don't think they're right. I would research that also.

I would have my information ready going in to the meeting. I would have points written down on paper so that you are prepared.

good luck in the meeting.

KKkitty

AFAIK you're meant to have an 11 hour rest period between shifts.

Tazer

Stheno wrote: »

Do you mean 2013?

If you quit at the meeting you are entitled to be paid what you are owed

Yes, sorry I meant 2013. No I did not quit at the meeting, I agreed to come in and have a chat in the near future (which is looking like Friday now). I'm going to bring a colleague and friend with me to the meeting. He was with me at the bar when the original comments were made.

Soilse

Depends if you want to keep you job if you do go down the Im really sorry etc but completely overworked and need your support

If you going in all guns blaring (see how its going)
Request the the meeting be minuted, and signed by everyone present. Make sure the minutes are correct and truly representative of the meeting before signing anything, and if it's not satisfactory, then don't sign.and get a copy before you leave

Dont know but if you allowed bring a witness do not sure if this can only be an internal person or not

As previously said write down a couple of points just some words not big long sentences to remind you of the points you want to make

Acknowledge your mistake swearing at managers then list reasons why you were so fatigued by long hours and insufficient break between shifts. Is there an official record of hours worked if you have that bring it in
Do you have an employment contract read it

If you want record on mobile in your pocket if you feel you cant trust them

berger89

It's hard to know..
First off, you're supposed to leave at least an 11hour break between shifts.
Second, they sound like complete wnakers.

but look, i think in all honesty, you could have been fired on the spot for telling him to f*ck off.
if i were you, i would probably leave, but see how the meeting goes.
there is going to be tension there from now on…i don't see how a way back could be found.

see what happens in the meeting. i think you could have a case for bullying.

mada82

Leave on your terms not theirs. Try and get yourself another job lined up before quitting.

If the manager was making smart comments in front of other staff members then I think they can forgive your "**** off" back. You were provoked.

Another angle and it's probably not a good one would be to say your "**** off" was a joke back at the manager, you assumed his comments to you were a joke too and if they weren't then you would consider them out of order and bullying. If he really thought you were lazy then you should have been called into the office for a review and not humiliated in front of other staff.

I'm sure other people would have better suggestions than me though

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Rhys Essien

OP,join up mandate straight away.They will give advise.You will get no more bull$hit in work.

http://www.mandate.ie/About.aspx

The_Minister

There are many solicitors firms that deal with employment law and a vibrant employment Bar, but think carefully before you go down that road - it can permanently sour relations.

MarkAnthony

The_Minister wrote: »

There are many solicitors firms that deal with employment law and a vibrant employment Bar, but think carefully before you go down that road - it can permanently sour relations.

There's absolutely no reason not to have one's cake and eat it though. Get proper advice and don't tell the employer you've done so. It can be most effective mid disciplinary hearing if they think you're just another employee without a clue.

rock22

Rhys Essien wrote: »

OP,join up mandate straight away.They will give advise.You will get no more bull$hit in work.

http://www.mandate.ie/About.aspx

Strongly support this advice.
i would suggest you try to get support from a trade union rather than a solicitor.

MarkAnthony

rock22 wrote: »

Strongly support this advice.
i would suggest you try to get support from a trade union rather than a solicitor.

I'm open to correction but my impression of unions were that they don't like blowins. The other issue is that unless the rest of the workforce is unionised you've essentially a guy sat there with you who, although is usually quite knowledgeable, is not legally trained. You've the added issue that the employer may simply decide you're more trouble than you're worth. Obviously that will never be said directly but you catch my drift I'm sure.

The final issue is there's nothing covert about a union rep sat next to you in a hearing. I know I'm labouring this point (no pun intended) but showing your hand isn't always the best strategy.

234

rock22 wrote: »

Strongly support this advice.
i would suggest you try to get support from a trade union rather than a solicitor.

Union reps can be a double edged sword. Some of them know their stuff. Some of them combine dogmatic passion with a lack of actual knowledge, so that if things progress to tribunal proceedings it can have hampered your case to have followed their advice rather than going to a solicitor earlier on.

That said, it's unlikely that you actually need to have a solicitor present at a disciplinary hearing at this level. However, you would be well advised to take legal advice.

circadian

Seek legal advice, inform them of the situation in full and collect any evidence of your working hours and interactions with the management.

Pat Mustard

berger89 wrote: »

but look, i think in all honesty, you could have been fired on the spot for telling him to f*ck off.

Mod:

No legal advice.

Tazer

Thanks for everything guys, I'm going in to the disciplinary tomorrow at 3pm with a colleague and friend from work. He is a senior member of staff and well liked and respected. I have everything written down in notes that I will try bring up including bullying, hours worked, the law and points in their handbook that they, themselves have not followed.

There is also an issue of being made to work in the club where the noise level is too high (up to 115db sometimes) and the fact that I have tinitus and warned the manager previously that this was the case. Wish me luck. Any more advice before going in? I'm dying to see what evidence of whatever they have on me and will deal with that when I come.

J Mysterio

I anxiously await your report.

MarkAnthony

Tazer wrote: »

Thanks for everything guys, I'm going in to the disciplinary tomorrow at 3pm with a colleague and friend from work. He is a senior member of staff and well liked and respected. I have everything written down in notes that I will try bring up including bullying, hours worked, the law and points in their handbook that they, themselves have not followed.

There is also an issue of being made to work in the club where the noise level is too high (up to 115db sometimes) and the fact that I have tinitus and warned the manager previously that this was the case. Wish me luck. Any more advice before going in? I'm dying to see what evidence of whatever they have on me and will deal with that when I come.

If it's the disciplinary hearing you're going into and not an investigatory hearing prior to the disciplinary hearing proper then you should already have all the evidence against you and have had time to review it.

If you've not already sought legal advice you should do so prior to the interview.

Tazer

Hi guys, is it illegal to record the meeting without stating it first?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

MarkAnthony

Tazer wrote: »

Hi guys, is it illegal to record the meeting without stating it first?

Inadmissible rather than illegal. That said there are employment cases where one party consent/covert recordings have been let in. They serve as a useful aide-mémoire in any case.

The thing that also always gets me is although people watch way too much TV in relation to criminal cases, the same imagination is never used in how a settlement might be arrived at in civil cases. Frankly I'll take Denny Crane over Jack McCoy any day :pac:

Kelly06

Op have a look at the rights commissioner website

http://www.lrc.ie/docs/Rights_Commissioner_Service/744.htm

You can refer a grievance against your employer here. I personally know of two employees who referred a grievance with their employer to the rights commissioner and they both were awarded compensation. One used a solicitor and one represented themselves. The latter however was extremely knowledgeable on employment law. Of course if you want to keep that particular job until you finish your course then this is a non runner.!

Super hoop

Any update OP?

Tazer

Super hoop wrote: »

Any update OP?

Hi guys, currently out for a few pints with aforementioned colleague, will update tomorrow on what happened today as I'm on the phone at the moment. Meeting went well and sai everything I wanted to say. The manager found out I was recording the meeting without consent at the very end and threatened to call the guards and getting his solicitor involved after he found out. I didn't even get a written warning at the end and he apologised for his comments at the bar.

Stheno

Tazer wrote: »

Hi guys, currently out for a few pints with aforementioned colleague, will update tomorrow on what happened today as I'm on the phone at the moment. Meeting went well and sai everything I wanted to say. The manager found out I was recording the meeting without consent at the very end and threatened to call the guards and getting his solicitor involved after he found out. I didn't even get a written warning at the end and he apologised for his comments at the bar.

Good for you glad it worked out
Enjoy the night out

MarkAnthony

Tazer wrote: »

Hi guys, currently out for a few pints with aforementioned colleague, will update tomorrow on what happened today as I'm on the phone at the moment. Meeting went well and sai everything I wanted to say. The manager found out I was recording the meeting without consent at the very end and threatened to call the guards and getting his solicitor involved after he found out. I didn't even get a written warning at the end and he apologised for his comments at the bar.

One thing that occurs to me only now is, recording the interview might be grounds for it's disciplinary proceeding if it's against company policy. But then I assume you checked all random internet advice with the solicitor before going in?

Anyway - my own slap on the wrist for giving, on reflection, what could have been construed as legal advice aside; really glad to hear it worked out for you OP. You still need to seek proper professional advice ref the hearing damage.

sparkling sea

If there are any further episodes or you just want to get some advise on what has happened to you up till now ring NERA (National Employment Rights Authority) here's a link to there site.

http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Workplace_Relations_Bodies/National_Employment_Rights_Authority/

A union will not act if the action has already happened, but you could still ask before joining one. You employers don't have to engage with the union rep either.
You are entitled to bring someone with you to any meetings you may have with your manager, its a good idea too.

Diary everything that has happened, times, who was there, who said what
etc.
And remeber you wouldn't and don't have to accept a verbal warning, most of all ring NERA in anything else happens

MarkAnthony

sparkling sea wrote: »

And remeber you wouldn't and don't have to accept a verbal warning, most of all ring NERA in anything else happens

Care to elaborate on that?

Are you saying that once an employer has adhered to fair procedures and done the same with an appeal there is some other mechanism for disputing a warning. Are you suggesting proceeding to the EAT?

J Mysterio

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Are you suggesting proceeding to the EAT?

He wont be having any supper at all if he doesn't pull his socks up.