Infraction

LeeMajors

Hi Admin,
Regarding the Sinn Fein thread.
I'd like to have an infraction reversed if possible that I just received from johnnyskelton.
After a couple of hours 'debate' in which a poster made continual claims of criminality going 'without sanction' in Sinn Fein, to which I replied several times that people mentioned by said poster had been arrested and charged and served jail time and therefore hadn't gone 'without sanction' as claimed I posted the following....

"That wasn't the point or the question.
You know that and no amount of backtracking by yourself will change the stupidity of your earlier posts.
They're there for all to see."

I was infracted for 'personal abuse', but the post clearly refers to 'the stupidity of your earlier posts' not the stupidity of the poster in question.

I've asked the mod in question to reverse it but he told me to come here.

I might also point out that there were personal attacks on myself in that thread, which I reported as requested, yet no action was taken.

The thread was closed for a while and the end result was that the only sanction for the various exchanges was to infract my post above.

I'm trying to keep a clean record here, two other yellow cards were reversed too as they were given in haste.

Thanks in advance,

Adam.

Tokyo

Good evening Adam,

thanks for informing me that you've already spoken to the moderator in question - it will make this process that much quicker. I'll take a look into card in question - if you can be patient while I get in touch with all parties involved, and catch up with everything that led up to this card being issued, I'd appreciate it.

Regards,
Mike

LeeMajors

mike_ie wrote: »

Good evening Adam,

thanks for informing me that you've already spoken to the moderator in question - it will make this process that much quicker. I'll take a look into card in question - if you can be patient while I get in touch with all parties involved, and catch up with everything that led up to this card being issued, I'd appreciate it.

Regards,
Mike

Thanks Mike.
Appreciate it.

LeeMajors

Hi Mike,

The same moderator has now just banned me from politics for advising the poster mentioned earlier that there is no point in dealing with him.

Here's what was posted on the thread,

"Mod: banned for personal use for 24 hours. I only wish I did it sooner"


Here's my 'offending' post after continually asking that poster to back up the claims he was making.

"Is there something wrong with you?
You made claims here, again, and you want me to back them up for you.
I'm beginning to wonder exactly what I'm dealing with here.
Obviously, you have a problem of some sort and perhaps I shouldn't be exacerbating it by conversing with you.

Best to leave it at that I think"





Personal abuse johnny reckons, while still allowing that poster troll the thread wih accusations he can't or won't back up.

Something isn't right here.

Tokyo

Ok Adam,

considering the lateness of the hour, I suggest that we all take a step back while I look into this. I'll get back to you tomorrow when I have a better picture of what has transpired.

Regards,
Mike

LeeMajors

Hi Mike,
Any progress on this one.
I find it strange that with all that was posted on the thread yesterday, I was infracted and banned for 'personal abuse'.
The posts above aren't personal abuse, one was about someone's post and the other was me informing that poster that I wouldn't be conversing with him again because of his refusal to back up claims he was making.

I think the mod in question here has overstepped the mark, you can gather that from the tone of his on thread display after he imposed his ban, and indeed from his PM's to me regarding this.

I've also had PM's from 2 other posters, who would be classed as being on one side of the argument, who were infracted and banned by him too.

Surely, moderation should be impartial?

Thanks again,
Adam.

Tokyo

Hi Adam,


I appreciate your patience with this, however considering your history in the politics forum, plus the fact that you have posted under multiple accounts, you can appreciate that there is quite a lot of information to get through.

The two yellow cards that you mention have no bearing on the outcome of this DRP, but considering the manner in which you tried to introduce them - 'two other yellow cards were reversed too as they were given in haste' - I'm going to address them quickly in the interests of clarity.

I've taken a look at the cards in question, and they were not 'issued in haste' as you stated. The first was reversed because the moderator in question was unaware of your previous accounts and decided to cut you some slack as a new member. The second card was issued as the moderator in question had issues in applying a ban to your account on a mobile device. The card was to be reversed and a the ban applied, but after discussion with you via PM, they decided to put the ban on hold and see if your posting style improved. Where you see haste, I see an abundance of second chances where mod action was warranted.

Now to the moderator actions that you have raised here - the red card, and 24 hour ban.

Red Card:

LeeMajors wrote: »

That wasn't the point or the question.
You know that and no amount of backtracking by yourself will change the stupidity of your earlier posts.
They're there for all to see.

The red card I am going to overturn - my role in DRP is to assess the situation from the point of view of the poster raising the DRP, and I can put forward a reasonably strong argument for your post being an attack on the post, rather than the poster. Though I will note that almost all of your posts yesterday up to that red card are needlessly antagonistic, and involve accusations of flaming and subtle belittling of any poster who tries to argue with you. I also note that a number of your posts were amongst those deleted in the afternoon, for descending into nothing more than a slagging match and backseat modding. One could argue that the moderator in question was unfortunate more than anything else in the post he decided to infract, considering the choices at his disposal, but nonetheless, the red card is overturned.

24 Hour Ban:

LeeMajors wrote: »

Is there something wrong with you?
You made claims here, again, and you want me to back them up for you.
I'm beginning to wonder exactly what I'm dealing with here.
Obviously, you have a problem of some sort and perhaps I shouldn't be exacerbating it by conversing with you.

Best to leave it at that I think.;)

In this instance you did cross the line from attacking to the post to attacking the poster, and the line highlighted in your quoted post above is nothing more than a thinly veiled dig at the poster in question. That constitutes personal abuse in my eyes, and this goes against not only the forum rules, but the sitewide rules, and as such is upheld.

As to the length of the ban, my opinion is that you are getting off light. As part of this DRP, I have reviewed the three accounts that you have posted under in the Politics forum since September, and when one needs an excel spreadsheet to keep track of a poster's warnings and infractions, something is seriously amiss. 30 moderator actions in a single forum is a concerning statistic. 30 moderator actions in a single forum over the course of just five months is an appalling record, and it's with some amount of difficulty that I'm not increasing the 24 hour ban to something far more substantial.


If you are satisfied with this outcome, let me know, and I will take the necessary steps to reverse the red card. Alternatively, you may appeal this decision with an admin.

LeeMajors

mike_ie wrote: »

Hi Adam,


I appreciate your patience with this, however considering your history in the politics forum, plus the fact that you have posted under multiple accounts, you can appreciate that there is quite a lot of information to get through.

The two yellow cards that you mention have no bearing on the outcome of this DRP, but considering the manner in which you tried to introduce them - 'two other yellow cards were reversed too as they were given in haste' - I'm going to address them quickly in the interests of clarity.

I've taken a look at the cards in question, and they were not 'issued in haste' as you stated. The first was reversed because the moderator in question was unaware of your previous accounts and decided to cut you some slack as a new member. The second card was issued as the moderator in question had issues in applying a ban to your account on a mobile device. The card was to be reversed and a the ban applied, but after discussion with you via PM, they decided to put the ban on hold and see if your posting style improved. Where you see haste, I see an abundance of second chances where mod action was warranted.

Now to the moderator actions that you have raised here - the red card, and 24 hour ban.

Red Card:



The red card I am going to overturn - my role in DRP is to assess the situation from the point of view of the poster raising the DRP, and I can put forward a reasonably strong argument for your post being an attack on the post, rather than the poster. Though I will note that almost all of your posts yesterday up to that red card are needlessly antagonistic, and involve accusations of flaming and subtle belittling of any poster who tries to argue with you. I also note that a number of your posts were amongst those deleted in the afternoon, for descending into nothing more than a slagging match and backseat modding. One could argue that the moderator in question was unfortunate more than anything else in the post he decided to infract, considering the choices at his disposal, but nonetheless, the red card is overturned.

24 Hour Ban:



In this instance you did cross the line from attacking to the post to attacking the poster, and the line highlighted in your quoted post above is nothing more than a thinly veiled dig at the poster in question. That constitutes personal abuse in my eyes, and this goes against not only the forum rules, but the sitewide rules, and as such is upheld.

As to the length of the ban, my opinion is that you are getting off light. As part of this DRP, I have reviewed the three accounts that you have posted under in the Politics forum since September, and when one needs an excel spreadsheet to keep track of a poster's warnings and infractions, something is seriously amiss. 30 moderator actions in a single forum is a concerning statistic. 30 moderator actions in a single forum over the course of just five months is an appalling record, and it's with some amount of difficulty that I'm not increasing the 24 hour ban to something far more substantial.


If you are satisfied with this outcome, let me know, and I will take the necessary steps to reverse the red card. Alternatively, you may appeal this decision with an admin.

Hi Mike,
The above is a fair enough summary ok.
Can I just point out one thing though, the final ban I got as DeJa VooDoo included a warning to change my posting style upon my return.
As you can see the accounts, you can see that the amount of moderator actions dropped to near zero under the LM account.
In nearly 900 posts now there were damn all communications from any moderators until K9 discovered that it is a re-regged account.
Once he discovered this, the warnings, infractions started coming thick and fast last week, indeed I even received this by PM,


"That's twice you've sneakily re reged to avoid bans. You think your above the rules everybody else abides by or something?

Quite the trail blazing achievement in the cafe. You are nowhere near changing and aren't wanted in the cafe. We are trying to get a relaxed, friendly environment there and you just ruin it."

and when I questioned him as to whether he was modding the poster or the posts I got this one,

Again you seem to be the only person feeling you are singled out, do you not wonder how you seem to be on your own in a Lee Majors/Deja VooDoo world that doesn't reflect reality!


This suggests to me that some moderators are infracting the poster rather than the actual substance of any posts and the message above could even be considered a personal attack on myself.
To me this seems to be an unfair way of moderating.

Yesterday I reported personally abusive posts aimed at myself and I also reported the poster RecordStraight for not backing up the numerous claims he made on thread with anything in fact.
That is trolling by anyone's standards, yet no action was taken against it.

Look, all I'm asking for is a fair crack at the site and for the moderation to be even handed and not one sided, the 2 mods in question here both post on the threads in question and it's quite obvious what their position is regarding that.

It seems I'm just going to have to put some posters on ignore, however if I see their posts quoted by others and they include any personal attack on myself I will be reporting them as per the forum charter, ok?

I accept your decision in this and thank you for your time in dealing with it.

Regards,
Adam.

N.B.
Could I just say that I've just looked at the threads in question and the same lads are on there, calling other posters posts gibberish etc etc and just posting in a most condescending / passive aggressive tone to others, which really could only be considered flaming and baiting for a fight.

And I'm not even there, so obviously these people are only out to cause trouble with whoever disagrees with them at any particular time.

Maybe you could have a look at that Mike and give me your thoughts on it?

Tokyo

Hi Adam,

the purpose of DRP isn't to debate the finer points of moderating the forum, however I will take your points on board, and bring them to the attention of the Politics mdoerators. That being said, I have taken a look at all cards issued to the LeeMajors account, and being blunt, there's nothing there that I wouldn't have issued myself - one instance of personal abuse in particular would have earned you an immediate ban from me rather than the yellow card assigned to it. I say this not to drag up the past, but to illustrate that despite your presumptions, the post, rather than the poster, is being infracted here.

Alternate points of view are not the issue here - the general consensus amongst the moderators is that if posters such as yourself are willing to post constructively, then you have the potential to add positively to the Politics Café. Whether you do that or not however, is entirely up to you. And personally, I hope that you do.

LeeMajors wrote: »

Yesterday I reported personally abusive posts aimed at myself and I also reported the poster RecordStraight for not backing up the numerous claims he made on thread with anything in fact.
That is trolling by anyone's standards, yet no action was taken against it.

I would suggest that rather then just telling posters that they are wrong, you instead post your reasoning as to why you think they are wrong. Debate is more than welcome, taking potshots at other posters' opinions is not.

LeeMajors wrote: »

It seems I'm just going to have to put some posters on ignore, however if I see their posts quoted by others and they include any personal attack on myself I will be reporting them as per the forum charter, ok?

If you feel that interracting with certain posters is only having a negative outcome for you, then this would be a good approach to take. Additionally, if you see a post that you think breaches the frum rules, then report it and let the mods decide whether it's actionable or not. And bear in mind, just because you don't see an action in-thread, doesn't mean that action wasn't taken.

LeeMajors wrote: »

I accept your decision in this and thank you for your time in dealing with it.

You're welcome. With that, I'll arrange for the red card to be reversed and we'll consider this matter resolved. Please bear in mind that the card reversal can take anything up to a few hours, depending on which admin is online.