Iron Shirt Chi Kung

Bujinkan

Does anyone know anybody teaching Iron Shirt Qi Kung in Dublin please?

Niall Keane

There are many many types:

Most External stlye have their own Iron Shirt version, some have Golden Bell, considered better than Iron Shirt. (not as easily countered)

In the internal styles like my own you have nei gung:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK_bada5dys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W7zqk7oduI

Iron Shirt can be easily countered using diagonal attacks through the body, nei gung cannot. This is commonly known in China.

however, it has to be said that the main purpose of the above nei gung is not the ability to receive blows. Thats more a side effect that can usually be achieved after 100 days practice, hence the other name for it: 100 Day Gung.

It is a set of 12 yin and 12 yang exercises that are used to condition the body to coordinate breath, movement and develop greater awareness. The exercises themselves have martial application and from the core of Nei Jia application.

In other words and this holds true for other gung systems too, there's no point in using such as an appendage, this is the 100 blades none of them sharp philosophy. In gung systems this particularly true. SO above we don't use the abs at all, we use a developed and powerful diaphragm and conditioned organs to receive the force and dissipate it. Some styles (external) like to use the abs and major muscle groups and tense up to receive force. The Internal views such as impractical, as we rarely get to chose when to receive force, if the opponent is any good anyway, if he isn't it hardly matters? and tensing up restricts movement setting us up like a hanging bag for more punishment.

I#m being brief, very brief here, the receiving of power and power generation methods of Chinese Gung Fu are stlye specific, sometimes refered to as "shen fa". Nei Gung trains this to a large extent. It allows the style to function properly and efficiently. Put it this way, if you practice a movement 1000000s of times, 111 minimum every day, some 3000 a day, that is what you will do. if one twin practices to pull back into a boxing guard after punching, that is what he will do, if the other develops a defensive shape to the strike allowing a follow through to a throw, that is what he will do. Styles have tactics and strategy, hardwired in training. At low level, where most spend their entire existence, in or below mediocrity, then this is irrelevant, if you seek to perfect your art well...

One can borrow from other arts, for sure, and make what you like your own, using your own styles flavor to execute the borrowed method. That takes a thorough understanding though, as I 'm sure you can appreciate. Gung on the other hand is the foundation, and mixing materials in an adhoc fashion at foundation level leads to cracked crumbling structures. Its not that one way is better than the other, just that some material works better together then others.

My advice would be to seek something related to your own art. Ask your coach, either there is one, he has one from outside that works well, or knows another instructor of your style who does.

Its a serious undertaking, daily practice ON TOP of usual training, it does become a habit and so normal enough. The 24 system I practice involved 13 a day - 12 yin and 1 yang one day, and the next 12 yang and 1 yin... and so on. They take from 30 minutes to practice at the first level, 1.5 hours at fighter level and up to 6 hours at master level. Clearly to practice 6 hours a day nei gung demands a retreat of some sort, hence the reason many sought out places like Song Shan (Shaolin), Wudang Shan, Emei Shan, Hua Shan and KunLun Shan etc. to practice..... "Mountiain High, Emperor Far". ;-)

cletus

As a personal trainer and,P.E. Teacher I have never come across any scientific method for conditioning the internal organs, with the exception of the heart, which is muscle (albeit a specific type of muscle).

I would be interested to hear how, for example, you would condition the small intestines

Niall Keane

cletus wrote: »

As a personal trainer and,P.E. Teacher I have never come across any scientific method for conditioning the internal organs, with the exception of the heart, which is muscle (albeit a specific type of muscle).

I would be interested to hear how, for example, you would condition the small intestines

I am not a doctor, it is beyond my knowledge. I am a Martial Artist, as such "condition", to me, means being able to withstand blows or to programme a response. I understand this is different to the meaning in health sciences.

I have provided evidence of the results of certain martial training. Such tests would leave average Joe in hospital sitting blood for a week. (this has happened when the untrained have attempted the jump)

Whether it's using the diaphragm as an airbag and conditioning the response, or strengthening the connective tissue or whatever, it clearly works.

Shots into the liver, pancreas and solar plexus are common targets, this type of training allows one to accept such blows and many others. Perhaps in error we say condition the organs meaning protecting these targets.

It is not a system of getting used to blows but sets of exercises that do not involve striking the body that develop the ability.


There's no woowoo chi bs involved.

These systems are very rare, the ones that have demonstrative effects, I have never heard of anyone scientifically studying such. Certainly there's lots of pseudo science about chi gung relating to chi as a jedis force. But that's another thing, again actually unrelated to martial arts, where chi has a different and practical meaning.

Mellor

Niall Keane wrote: »

I am not a doctor, it is beyond my knowledge. I am a Martial Artist, as such "condition", to me, means being able to withstand blows or to programme a response. I understand this is different to the meaning in health sciences.

I have provided evidence of the results of certain martial training. Such tests would leave average Joe in hospital sitting blood for a week. (this has happened when the untrained have attempted the jump)

Whether it's using the diaphragm as an airbag and conditioning the response, or strengthening the connective tissue or whatever, it clearly works.

Shots into the liver, pancreas and solar plexus are common targets, this type of training allows one to accept such blows and many others. Perhaps in error we say condition the organs meaning protecting these targets.

The jump video above shows evidence of the conditioning. As does even a glancing look at boxing, muay thai, grappling, etc.
I'm fairly sure that cletus wasn't questioning the fact that a body can be trained or conditioned to withstand impact.
But rather he was talking about this part specifically;

SO above we don't use the abs at all, we use a developed and powerful diaphragm and conditioned organs to receive the force and dissipate it.

You posted evidence of the results, but that in no way proves up your assertion that you "don't use the abs at all". That's probably precisely what you are doing, without realizing it. Not just your abs either, conditioning all the muscles of your core: abs, obliques, transverse muscles, erector spinae, and lats. About from movement, one of the functions of a lot of these muscles is to protect the organs.
Doing these kinda exercises improves the muscles tone, which is passive tension in a muscle, not "getting toned" for the beach as its commonly used ( incorrectly).
I think you were probably confusing the idea not using muscles at all with not fully contracting, tensing your abs. You are right that fully tensing, restricts movement, but there are degrees of tension between 0% and 100%, and it can be active or passive. In the stomach jump video, he is clearly preparing himself to receive the blow, simply because it’s a more extreme impact and needs close to full tension. He isn’t exactly fully mobile at that point but improving tension overall means at 20% tension, he can take harder hits yet still move.

As, extended periods of sitting, office work, etc cause us to have poor core tension. You should never have 0% tension, which is linked to bad posture. K.Starr (from Mobilitywod, unrelated to martial arts) says you should have constant hold enough core tension to take a light punch to the midsection. I sit a lot, and had bad posture previously, as such, I’ve a long standing rule with my GF, she has permission to punch my in the midsection at any time.

Just to clarify, I’m not suggesting it’s only muscle action. Your diaphragm plays a big role. It’s integral to the bracing your core and building intra-abdominal pressure. That’s the function of a weightlifter’s belt, not to provide direct support for the spine, but to provide opposing resistance to generate more force. You can test it my bracing you core, and relax. Then press your fingers into your mid section and brace again, you should be able to brace harder.
So thats condition to withstand blows as I see it. Afaik, organs themselves play no active role in the process. Apologies, that was a much longer post that intended.

Niall Keane

You could well be right, but we are straying into the usefulness of "modeling".

To teach this stuff, it is useful to say to the student not to use the abs, they may still be passively engaged.... But if I give him your description, of using them passively to 20% he will for sure engage them to 90%.

What I'm saying is from the martial arts perspective is like this...
One can use Newtonian physics to carry out calculations we need in everyday life. Travel times in our vehicles, for example. Now we know that this model isn't exactly accurate, at all, Einstein proved that with relativity. But for our purposes calculating how longbitbtakes to get to galway in a car, we don't really need to bring in relativity.

As such for the purposes of delivering results , practice is essential with clear guidance, that may well be factually inaccurate but helps us achieved be the goal.

BTW the model actually used to communicate the skill is 6 harmony , nei jin etc... Which again I'm sure can be ripped apart from a technical perspective but serves its purpose to achieve the goal better than over complicated accuracy..
This isn't unique to gung fu, many boxing coaches and champions have described punching without tension, exactly what you have pointed out is impossible. True?

As for modeling, one of my degrees is in architectural science, we studied loads, load bearing, heat, insulation, light levels and other such topics related to constriction. We never used string theory to carry out calculations. I'm sure the quantum reality is very different to the models we used.

Like let's not play silly beggars here, its common practice and seen as fair game to take a shot at gung fu etc. For the past 20 years or so. Mma revolution and all. Using a finer model to discredit an entire description is just so. It ignores the "usefulness" of a model of description.

This thread was started by someone seeking a particular gung fu practice, I'd guess neither of the "inquisitors" have the tiniest bit of experience with?

In my day science involved measuring and testing prior to pronouncements. And understood the value of modeling.

cletus

I wouldn't consider myself an "inquisitor", the question was asked on a public forum, and as suchis open to question and debate, and god knows there has been little enough of that on this forum of late.

I have no knowledge of gung fu, nor do I wish to take a shot at it. If a boxing coach told me he could train my internal organs I would pose the same questions.

I understand the use of modellingfor practical purposes, and I understand that sometimes we use a more heuristic approach to problem solving.

The aspect I question is that no other sport, activity or training methodolgy that I am aware of makes similar claims to the above, hence I asked for the reasoning behind such.

As you already stated Niall, there is much pseudo science surrounding gung fu, and other m.a.'s (sine wave in tkd comes to mind) so I would not consider it unusual that people with no direct knowledge of the teaining might question it

dubdamo

I am going to make a couple of assumptions here and I may very well be wrong on many of them.
1. I assume the OP is a bujinkan practitioner . I believe he may actually run his own dojo.
2. I assume that he wishes to continue training in Bujinkan and is looking for the iron shirt/ nei gung to supplement his own training. He is not going to fully embrace any gung fu system.
My question Niall is, if he finds someone to train him, would it be beneficial to incorporate the first level, which takes just over 30 mins each day into his training. Will anybody gain any martial benefit from that or would you have to put in 1.5 hrs nei gung practice in every day to achieve those results. Do people practise the shorter level purely for health benefits. I was at a physio 2 weeks ago myself, with ongoing knee problems. He commented on my shallow breathing and since then I have put aside some time every day to actually focus on expanding my (generous) stomach as I breath in which most adults seem to have forgotten.

smacl

Mellor wrote: »

You posted evidence of the results, but that in no way proves up your assertion that you "don't use the abs at all". That's probably precisely what you are doing, without realizing it. Not just your abs either, conditioning all the muscles of your core: abs, obliques, transverse muscles, erector spinae, and lats. About from movement, one of the functions of a lot of these muscles is to protect the organs.
Doing these kinda exercises improves the muscles tone, which is passive tension in a muscle, not "getting toned" for the beach as its commonly used ( incorrectly).

From memory, and Niall can correct me here, but nei gung and a lot of the associated tai chi conditioning are designed to lengthen abdominal muscles to increase the space available in the abdominal cavity. A lot of western ab workouts by comparison tighten abdominal muscles which provide a more desirable aesthetic to many, but also leave the abdominal cavity more compressed. While longer and looser abdominal muscles give the impression of a belly, they provide a significant benefit in receiving percussive force. If you look at the jump video from about 30 seconds in, you'll notice the guy on the ground has a relaxed and slightly convex belly. If your conditioning involves a large number of sit-ups and crunches, you'll notice that when you lie flat, your belly will tend to be more concave.

Just my 2c, not having done any nei gung for quite a few years now.

cletus

That's not really how the abdominal muscles work. They are essentially doing the same job for your abdominal cavity that you're ruins do for your thoracic cavity, offer support and protection.

They also support the lumbar curve of your spine, preventing too much curvature of the lower spine.

In fact a lot of lower back problems are actually caused by poor posture,a direct result of weak postural stomach muscles.

Hundreds of crunches are no longer considered the way to train a strong core.

The idea that you create more space in the abdominal cavity leads me to believe, and correct me if in wrong, that the idea is there is more source for the organs to move in, therefore they can avoid the blow?

smacl

cletus wrote: »

The idea that you create more space in the abdominal cavity leads me to believe, and correct me if in wrong, that the idea is there is more source for the organs to move in, therefore they can avoid the blow?

That was always part of my understanding of it; the less rigid an object is when you apply a percussive force to a small area, the better that force is dispersed. The nei kung demos would seem to support this. While it is an imperfect metaphor, I compare it to the difference between trying to burst a partially inflated balloon with a pin versus bursting a fully inflated one.

cletus

I get the idea, but your organs can't move around in your abdominal cavity the same way air can be displaced in a balloon

Niall Keane

dubdamo wrote: »

I am going to make a couple of assumptions here and I may very well be wrong on many of them.
1. I assume the OP is a bujinkan practitioner . I believe he may actually run his own dojo.
2. I assume that he wishes to continue training in Bujinkan and is looking for the iron shirt/ nei gung to supplement his own training. He is not going to fully embrace any gung fu system.
My question Niall is, if he finds someone to train him, would it be beneficial to incorporate the first level, which takes just over 30 mins each day into his training. Will anybody gain any martial benefit from that or would you have to put in 1.5 hrs nei gung practice in every day to achieve those results. Do people practise the shorter level purely for health benefits. I was at a physio 2 weeks ago myself, with ongoing knee problems. He commented on my shallow breathing and since then I have put aside some time every day to actually focus on expanding my (generous) stomach as I breath in which most adults seem to have forgotten.

The protective effect can be gained through 100days of the basic level.
It trains a different way of moving though, specifically martial recovery and counter that may or may not support other systems ?

Niall Keane

cletus wrote: »

I get the idea, but your organs can't move around in your abdominal cavity the same way air can be displaced in a balloon

He's not really suggestibg they do. See the protective effect is almost a biproduct and not the primary benefit of the training. Noone has to my knowledge actually sat down to figure out how it works , it is different in mental focus and almost opposite to how I've seen iron shirt used or for that matter the method used by many top international combat sport athletes I know.

There's a lot of strange stuff that seems counter intuitative at first in the system.

There's also huge reference to daoist alchemy and philosophical concepts and visualisations that aid the proper transmission.

Although I think Neil Rosiak has written an article on the net somewhere from a sports science perspective on the 24. Decoded it a bit anyway. I'll try find it again.

Mellor

smacl wrote: »

From memory, and Niall can correct me here, but nei gung and a lot of the associated tai chi conditioning are designed to lengthen abdominal muscles to increase the space available in the abdominal cavity. A lot of western ab workouts by comparison tighten abdominal muscles which provide a more desirable aesthetic to many, but also leave the abdominal cavity more compressed. While longer and looser abdominal muscles give the impression of a belly, they provide a significant benefit in receiving percussive force. If you look at the jump video from about 30 seconds in, you'll notice the guy on the ground has a relaxed and slightly convex belly. If your conditioning involves a large number of sit-ups and crunches, you'll notice that when you lie flat, your belly will tend to be more concave.

Endless cruches can lead to short tight ab muscles, that's True. But it's not really considered a good approach at all. Not for proformance or aesthetics. A proper approach would strethening through full range and also working opposing muscles. This is a western approach. It's also what I believe you are describing in relation to gung fu.
But the idea of creating space around the organs doesn't hold up. What would occupy this space.
I would imagine that the reason his belly is convex is because he has a very strong diaphragm, and it is forcing its way into the ab cavity, taking in more air, and increasing pressure. As I mentioned above, a weight lifter uses the same principle. Breathing "into your belly" to brace your core and spine.
Or in martial arts, Rickson Gracie a well know for his diaphragm.

Mellor

Niall Keane wrote: »

To teach this stuff, it is useful to say to the student not to use the abs, they may still be passively engaged.... But if I give him your description, of using them passively to 20% he will for sure engage them to 90%

That's absolutely fine. In order to get him to focus on one aspect, say diaphragm breathing, you ask him to forget about his abs. Pretty common approach in a huge number of area, and I've no
Issues with it.
But once the student learns the technique, do you not think he would increase his potential by being fully aware of what's happening.

FWIW, in the belly jump video, he'd need close to 100% tension, not 20%.

One can use Newtonian physics to carry out calculations we need in everyday life. Travel times in our vehicles, for example. Now we know that this model isn't exactly accurate, at all, Einstein proved that with relativity. But for our purposes calculating how longbitbtakes to get to galway in a car, we don't really need to bring in relativity.

Unless you are driving to Galway at light speed, Newtonian is hardly inaccurate.
Regardless, It's not really comparable. We aren't talking about muscles on a cellular level.
It's simply "not using muscles" vrs "using muscles"

This isn't unique to gung fu, many boxing coaches and champions have described punching without tension, exactly what you have pointed out is impossible. True?

I'd guess they are refering to punching without opposing tension, or tensing up statically. So that's not impossible.

As for modeling, one of my degrees is in architectural science, we studied loads, load bearing, heat, insulation, light levels and other such topics related to constriction. We never used string theory to carry out calculations. I'm sure the quantum reality is very different to the models we used.

Funnily enough I've a similar degree myself, and do the same for a living. I never used string theory either.
Dont think it would have been very useful.

Like let's not play silly beggars here, its common practice and seen as fair game to take a shot at gung fu etc. For the past 20 years or so. Mma revolution and all. Using a finer model to discredit an entire description is just so. It ignores the "usefulness" of a model of description.

I don't think anybody was taking a shot at gung fu. But If you want to stay on the back foot and assume they were that's your call.
FWIW, you clearly follow a practical application of gung fu. I don't think anybody denys the practical elements. At the top I said the technique works. It's not as if we are talking about the skin changing colour and turning into iron.

smacl

Mellor wrote: »

Endless cruches can lead to short tight ab muscles, that's True. But it's not really considered a good approach at all. Not for proformance or aesthetics.

No great background in modern western training methods, but doing Karate in the 80s we did one hell of a lot of sit ups. From fitness classes I've been to in recent years and still go to, there are still a fair amount of crunches and sit-ups, along with press ups, squats, burpees, stair climbers etc...

A proper approach would strethening through full range and also working opposing muscles. This is a western approach. It's also what I believe you are describing in relation to gung fu.

Many of the gung exercises I used to do were quite different to anything I've seen in a western gym. Lots of back bends and rolls emphasising a wide range of motion, particularly along the spine, which would tend to stretch out muscle groups in a way that exercises with a shorter range of motion would not.

Mellor

smacl wrote: »

No great background in modern western training methods, but doing Karate in the 80s we did one hell of a lot of sit ups. From fitness classes I've been to in recent years and still go to, there are still a fair amount of crunches and sit-ups, along with press ups, squats, burpees, stair climbers etc...

The 80s also sold a lot of ab crunchers devices. Usually seen these days left out for council collections.
They'll always be peddled to the masses though. 7-min abs, 5 min abs, etc. a quick fix.
No amount of ab work will burn excess belly fat, but they keep pretending it will.

A much better core work is planks, hollow holds, Bridges, etc

Many of the gung exercises I used to do were quite different to anything I've seen in a western gym. Lots of back bends and rolls emphasising a wide range of motion, particularly along the spine, which would tend to stretch out muscle groups in a way that exercises with a shorter range of motion would not.

I haven't done any gung exercises. But the above description would match pretty well with core work in BJJ, wrestling, yoga, Ido portal, crossfit/mwod, and bodyweight programs like convict conditioning.
From your comments gung sounds very similar that kind of stuff. I'd consider that sort of approach endlessly better that infinite crunches.

Niall Keane

Mellor wrote: »

The 80s also sold a lot of ab crunchers devices. Usually seen these days left out for council collections.
They'll always be peddled to the masses though. 7-min abs, 5 min abs, etc. a quick fix.
No amount of ab work will burn excess belly fat, but they keep pretending it will.

A much better core work is planks, hollow holds, Bridges, etc


I haven't done any gung exercises. But the above description would match pretty well with core work in BJJ, wrestling, yoga, Ido portal, crossfit/mwod, and bodyweight programs like convict conditioning.
From your comments gung sounds very similar that kind of stuff. I'd consider that sort of approach endlessly better that infinite crunches.

The major major difference is that gung exercises condition martial responses, and the other ancillary western stuff do not. Perhaps someone will reinvent the wheel and design a western system that simultaneously programmes martially relevant responses. Currently this is not the case. Planks etc. Have no martial application, they may aid martial ability and power but it inevitably ends up a choice, skill progression or power progression. Worse still as nerves thicken to basiclly process more info and act faster and as engrams are creatd in the movement cortex for repeated movement, of we practice martially irrelevant movement we waste opportunity to develop such and even worse of our exercises programme a bad martial response we could end up training to defeat ourselves.
Nei gung etc. Deals with this, and looks nothing like any western programmes I've seen, and I've worked with Olympic teams internationally on such.
It a obvious you think nei gung has nothing to offer that doesn't exist elsewhere. You're wrong. You liken it to exercises practiced as ancillary support for other martial disciplines, you couldn't be further off the mark. They do NOT deal with martial recovery and counter options. They take a linear mental approach to dealing with western strength and conditioning.
In other words they are extra, nei gung conversely is core to a system.
And I'm not wet behind the ears, I've seen a few national champs in UK and IRL in other combat sports who tried out the jump to their detrament.
Do not try this at home folks!

cletus

Nobody is suggesting that the training, whatever it may consist of, does not work. You have posted a video demonstrating that it does. The only dispute centers around how it may work.

I'm not sure what you mean by training martial responses, but I will say that if you are talking about responses to conditioning, then the body isn't aware why any form of conditioning is done

The basic physiological response to external stressors, or conditioning, is the same regardless, the body strengthens itself in order to better cope with that stressor in the future, but it is not aware, for example, whether your sprinting is to escape an enemy or win a 100 metre race, it just responds to the stress

Mellor

Niall Keane wrote: »

Currently this is not the case. Planks etc. Have no martial application, they may aid martial ability and power but it inevitably ends up a choice, skill progression or power progression.

That's a strange criticism. Planks aren't intends to be martial arts. It was a response to smcal's question about traditional core work.

It's a fair point about martial or sports application. However, not everything needs to be sports specific. Almost every professional athlete will incorporated strength and conditioning work. Wortg considering.

It a obvious you think nei gung has nothing to offer that doesn't exist elsewhere. You're wrong.

Strawman
I never said that tbh.

You really gone off on a tangent tbh. Nobody is trying to discredit Nei gung.
You were question on a specific statement you made. There's no need to turn everything into a style verses style debate, or play the you've never tried it card.

Niall Keane

cletus wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting that the training, whatever it may consist of, does not work. You have posted a video demonstrating that it does. The only dispute centers around how it may work.

I'm not sure what you mean by training martial responses, but I will say that if you are talking about responses to conditioning, then the body isn't aware why any form of conditioning is done

The basic physiological response to external stressors, or conditioning, is the same regardless, the body strengthens itself in order to better cope with that stressor in the future, but it is not aware, for example, whether your sprinting is to escape an enemy or win a 100 metre race, it just responds to the stress

You can't be serious?
So for example a boxer spending years training to snap punches back into guard is time wasted? Or its the same response "regardless" , amateur rookie is the same as a pro right?
The idea of conditioning a response is pointless?
May as well forget about martial arts so?
Its all about strength? And fitness?

In fairness that does seem to be the outlook of most. And it works to a point... A local level amateur point.

"The body isn't aware", I assume you mean the muscles etc. As the brain and what it controls the nervous system should be very much aware. Tactics needto be programmed if they are to happen automatically. That certainly can be done!
I guess the brain doesn't feature much in strength and conditioning land?
If you can get all the benefits from time consuming irrelevant exercises with excercises that also train or condition our responses to benefit our martial art, and out pursuit is martial arts, well? Do I have to cut it out of cardboard?

Niall Keane

This thread refers to a chinese martial art practice, as such conditioning in CMA means programming responses and strengthening the body.

If another definition is being utilised it needs to be defined first, otherwise the thread becomes meaningless jibberish.

cletus

Niall,I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse here. Nobody is discussing tactics.

What it comes down to is you made a claim that the internal organs can be conditioned to withstand blows. The fact is they can't be. They have no role in support, strength or protection of the body, unlike the musculo-skeletal system. They are not under the control of your voluntary nervous system.

You can believe the contrary if you choose, just as you can choose to believe in god, Buddha, pink unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters.

With regards to whether the body is aware of the reasons for your training. It is not. On a physiological level your body does not differentiate between running a marathon and running away from an attacker, it simply responds to the stress placed on the system and adapts.

You can place specific stresses on systems in the body to garner certain results. These are training outcomes.

None of this detracts from the fact that whatever body systems are being stressed in the training for your above video, it works. However you are doing your students a disservice by making claims about how it works that aren't true

cletus

Niall Keane wrote: »

This thread refers to a chinese martial art practice, as such conditioning in CMA means programming responses and strengthening the body.

If another definition is being utilised it needs to be defined first, otherwise the thread becomes meaningless jibberish.

There aren't multiple definitions. Basic human anatomy and physiology do not change just because your doing gung Fu

Niall Keane

cletus wrote: »

Niall,I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse here. Nobody is discussing tactics.

What it comes down to is you made a claim that the internal organs can be conditioned to withstand blows. The fact is they can't be. They have no role in support, strength or protection of the body, unlike the musculo-skeletal system. They are not under the control of your voluntary nervous system.

You can believe the contrary if you choose, just as you can choose to believe in god, Buddha, pink unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters.

With regards to whether the body is aware of the reasons for your training. It is not. On a physiological level your body does not differentiate between running a marathon and running away from an attacker, it simply responds to the stress placed on the system and adapts.

You can place specific stresses on systems in the body to garner certain results. These are training outcomes.

None of this detracts from the fact that whatever body systems are being stressed in the training for your above video, it works. However you are doing your students a disservice by making claims about how it works that aren't true

Sorry but we are talking tactics etc. We are talking reprogramming psychological and related physical reactions to stress. You keep divorsing the body from the mind. Does a muscle know? Obviously not, but the nervous system and brain don't shut down either. My understanding is that muscles need a signal from tye brain and nerves to fire tyem? And that movement patterns can be developed and have specific engrams related to them. Indeed perfextion of movement is related to how much we train specific movements. To ignore the nervous system and mind is well, obtuse indeed.
You have revealed your agenda to come on and discredit the method and sell your own skill set.
This thread started as an appeal for info. Info on a subject beyond your knowledge and experience, yet as typical in this forum we get 2-3 pages of evangelical nonsense.
I explained the initial pre - inquisition statement about thw statwmemt - conditioning organs as modeling, ; believed we had alreadt covered this? But this whole parade continues despite my acknowledgements. That has agenda written all over it.
The op hasn't replied, I wonder why.

But fire away have the last say, illuminate me on Chinese martial arts.

cletus

Niall Keane wrote: »

we use a developed and powerful diaphragm and conditioned organs to receive the force and dissipate it.

You made the above statement

cletus wrote: »

As a personal trainer and,P.E. Teacher I have never come across any scientific method for conditioning the internal organs, with the exception of the heart, which is muscle (albeit a specific type of muscle).

I would be interested to hear how, for example, you would condition the small intestines

I asked the above question, directly relating to the claim you initially made

Niall Keane wrote: »

I am not a doctor, it is beyond my knowledge. I am a Martial Artist, as such "condition", to me, means being able to withstand blows or to programme a response. I understand this is different to the meaning in health sciences.

I doesn't have a different meaning, I accept what you understand as conditioning, I just dispute the concept of conditioning internal organs

Niall Keane wrote: »

Sorry but we are talking tactics etc. We are talking reprogramming psychological and related physical reactions to stress. You keep divorsing the body from the mind. Does a muscle know? Obviously not, but the nervous system and brain don't shut down either. My understanding is that muscles need a signal from tye brain and nerves to fire tyem? And that movement patterns can be developed and have specific engrams related to them.

This is true, but it doesn't detract from the two main points I was making; firstly the components of your body do not know what gung fu is, nor marathon training, nor football, nor any other activity. These components perform a specific job in your body. You may have a cognitive understanding of why you snap your punch back quickly after a jab, but the nerves, muscles and tendons involved in the action do not. They simply perform as the do because you have stressed them in a particular manner to induce the ability to do so. Secondly internal organs, not under the control of the voluntary nervous system, cannot be conditioned like the musculo-skeletal system. They do not have those functions

Niall Keane wrote: »

Indeed perfextion of movement is related to how much we train specific movements. To ignore the nervous system and mind is well, obtuse indeed.
You have revealed your agenda to come on and discredit the method and sell your own skill set.

cletus wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting that the training, whatever it may consist of, does not work. You have posted a video demonstrating that it does. The only dispute centers around how it may work.

cletus wrote: »

None of this detracts from the fact that whatever body systems are being stressed in the training for your above video, it works. However you are doing your students a disservice by making claims about how it works that aren't true

Twice I contend that your training, whatever it actually is, works, just not in the manner that you understand it, or perhaps the manner it was explained to you

Niall Keane wrote: »

This thread started as an appeal for info. Info on a subject beyond your knowledge and experience, yet as typical in this forum we get 2-3 pages of evangelical nonsense.

Chinese Martial arts are indeed outside my knowledge and experience, as to whether they are beyond it, I would have to practice for a while and see. Regarding my knowledge of Human biology, it is far from complete, but it is enough to be sure of the statements I made previously

Niall Keane wrote: »

I explained the initial pre - inquisition statement about thw statwmemt - conditioning organs as modeling, ; believed we had alreadt covered this? But this whole parade continues despite my acknowledgements. That has agenda written all over it.
The op hasn't replied, I wonder why.

I have no agenda here Niall, I have an issue with one particular claim made by you. I have not advocated any other form of training, I have not recommended against performing the exercises that produce the above results. In fact, I would have thought you to be one of the more considered trad martial arts posters on boards.

As regards the organ "modelling", thats not really the case. You are not simplifying a complex understanding for the beginner student that you will then expand upon as they develop a greater knowledge, it is simply an untrue statement.

Please feel free to link to my "inquisition statement"

Niall Keane wrote: »

But fire away have the last say, illuminate me on Chinese martial arts.

This is not about CMA. I would ask the same question of anybody in any given field making the statement you made

Niall Keane

Its pedantics then.

cletus

Grand

Niall Keane

cletus wrote: »

Grand

I did offer as my very first reply on page one:

"Whether it's using the diaphragm as an airbag and conditioning the response, or strengthening the connective tissue or whatever, it clearly works.

Shots into the liver, pancreas and solar plexus are common targets, this type of training allows one to accept such blows and many others. Perhaps in error we say condition the organs meaning protecting these targets.

It is not a system of getting used to blows but sets of exercises that do not involve striking the body that develop the ability.


There's no woowoo chi bs involved."


Lets reiterate..

"Perhaps in error we say condition the organs meaning protecting these targets."

Very first reply..... Very first!

Niall Keane

And I'm not using royal plural, its the way it is considered. There is a whole background .... And Chinese isn't as precise or should i say singular in definition in these or othwr areas, context is key, really in cma it means condition these target areas....
But then I have to get into a whole thesis of explanation about pictograms, language, use of metaphor , cultural references, all of thatvregardong martial arts in China. That will lead to the difference between the same terms in Chinese medicine and Chinese martial arts.
I feel such lqds to unnecessary complication. Perhaps by thats just me?
Unlike Mellor I don't believe it necessarybto know about the passive engagement of muscle culture and what percentage engagement is required to improve training. Just feckin train it. Did Tyson have to get a medical degree to achieve his skill, what about Saenchai? Would they achieve better results of they did medicine alongside martial arts?

I don't think so, and hence why I call it pedantic.

After all , once again, I clearly stated such at the first opportunity . I lead no one down any path.

Mellor

Niall Keane wrote: »

Unlike Mellor I don't believe it necessary to know about the passive engagement of muscle culture and what percentage engagement is required to improve training. Just feckin train it. Did Tyson have to get a medical degree to achieve his skill, what about Saenchai? Would they achieve better results of they did medicine alongside martial arts?

I never said you needed to know the exact "percent" that a muscle were engaged, I said it might help to be aware you were using muscle at all. THe belly jump isn't passive engagement.
And medical degree, lol. Sure because you need a 7 year degree to differentiate between squeezing your abs from your arse.

Look, you made a mistake. You acknowledged it by saying maybe you shouldn't have said condition the organs, and maybe it is the tissue/muscles. That's it. There's no agenda to target CMA or anything else. I honestly think you tried to make a mountain of out a mole here here.

Niall Keane

Mellor wrote: »

I never said you needed to know the exact "percent" that a muscle were engaged, I said it might help to be aware you were using muscle at all. THe belly jump isn't passive engagement.
And medical degree, lol. Sure because you need a 7 year degree to differentiate between squeezing your abs from your arse.

Look, you made a mistake. You acknowledged it by saying maybe you shouldn't have said condition the organs, and maybe it is the tissue/muscles. That's it. There's no agenda to target CMA or anything else. I honestly think you tried to make a mountain of out a mole here here.

Sorry but there is no conscious engagement of tensing the abs.

But keep insisting.

As stated before the "internal" can seem counter intuitive.

"Shaolin's principles reversed"

But keep on telling me, it's not like "yi " is important in nei jia.

Niall Keane

Mellor wrote: »

I never said you needed to know the exact "percent" that a muscle were engaged, I said it might help to be aware you were using muscle at all. THe belly jump isn't passive engagement.
And medical degree, lol. Sure because you need a 7 year degree to differentiate between squeezing your abs from your arse.

Look, you made a mistake. You acknowledged it by saying maybe you shouldn't have said condition the organs, and maybe it is the tissue/muscles. That's it. There's no agenda to target CMA or anything else. I honestly think you tried to make a mountain of out a mole here here.

Sorry but there is no conscious engagement of tensing the abs.

But keep insisting.

As stated before the "internal" can seem counter intuitive.

"Shaolin's principles reversed"

But keep on telling me, it's not like "yi " is important in nei jia.

Please explain to me how the yi is trained in nei. Gung?
Explain "rotational movement" in nei jia?
Explain how this facilitates counter and recovery?
Explain to me the dynamic difference between "reeling silk" type movement and typically defensive movement?
Explain the concept of cai lang and it's six methods of generating force?


But keep coming with more pedantics, demonstrate how you know everything about everything.

I used a Chinese understanding of a concept on a thread where somebody asked about a rare cma skill, I therefore assumed some knowledge in the subject, and then clarified in my first reply the error of stating such.

You guys have spun 3 pages out of that.

And you know zero about the subject.

Typical... a little bit of knowledge and suddenly you're expert in everything.

Two practitioners have stated that this stuff is quite unlike western methods, but still..
Condecendion ensues, the other lad must be only familiar with 1980's western methods, he wouldn't have the latest night course expertise in personal training.
Le bla bla habitual....