Compensatory growth.

Limestone Cowboy

How much is it worth extra in weight gain lads. I sold a few year and a half old heifers yesterday that were out on the winterage and getting a small few nuts and I was disgusted with their weights. They weren't the best made animals ever produced but were stretchy bits of stores with a good fleece and a shine off them. 340kg, got 980 for them. They would have to turn inside out when the hit grass but I'm just wondering how much extra is it worth compared to cattle that would have been housed for the winter? They weren't the quietest either which probably held back the price a bit.

Count Mondego

Last year, stores in shed all winter with average silage and no nuts, bit of mineral thrown on. Out of the shed in late march and killed in August, grass only diet. Bullocks averaged between 1.5 (LimX)and 1.9kgs Lim/CH) a day. Heifers averaged in around the 1.5 too. Pumping nuts into them over winter would have been a complete waste unless you were killing them out of the shed.

They had the best grass on the land and there was no shortage of it last year.

keep going

Compensatry growth could pile 150 kilos and more onto an animal in 3 months but over the summer housed cattle will probably catch up.one thing to bear in mind is compensatery growth only lasts 100 days from mid feb so you should have them on grass early

ford 5600

Right, I suppose 340 kgs for 18 mts old mightn't be great, but the money you got was as good as most people for 450 kgs. So in my opinion, the buyer paid well for the compensatery growth element . Also, as you mentioned winter age, you don't have €1000 a head debt to service. You are at more financially, than a lot of people.

onyerbikepat

What the hell is Compensatory Growth anyway? Is it not more like Compensatory Condition? Animals still grow away over the winter months, but loose condition. When they hit the grass then, they put on savage weight (or condition) in the first 6 weeks or so.

freedominacup

Maintenance gr is .75kg/day. Below that an animal is actually going backwards.

cute geoge

freedominacup wrote: »

Maintenance gr is .75kg/day. Below that an animal is actually going backwards.

I cant see too many cattle in the country gaining .75kg per day over the winter unless there been stuffed with meal

_Brian

onyerbikepat wrote: »

What the hell is Compensatory Growth anyway? Is it not more like Compensatory Condition? Animals still grow away over the winter months, but loose condition. When they hit the grass then, they put on savage weight (or condition) in the first 6 weeks or so.

Tey don't all grow over the winter.
Many lads feed weanlings ****e silage with no meal and animals just survive with no meaningful growth.

onyerbikepat

_Brian wrote: »

Tey don't all grow over the winter.
Many lads feed weanlings ****e silage with no meal and animals just survive with no meaningful growth.

You mean the height of the animal, say at the withers, would stay the same. Jeez, that's starvation.

sh1tstirrer

freedominacup wrote: »

Maintenance gr is .75kg/day. Below that an animal is actually going backwards.

Maintenance is just to keep the animal alive if they are gaining .75kg/day that's maintenance plus production.

freedominacup

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Maintenance is just to keep the animal alive if they are gaining .75kg/day that's maintenance plus production.

Not for a growing animal. I must correct myself it should have been .7. Maintenance for an adult animal is just to keep the animal alive but what animal is supposed to be just kept alive. Suckler and dairy cows do actually lose weight annually for a period after calving but then would be expected to be gaining slowly.

Maintenance for a growing animal is gaining weight. If they aren't gaining around .7 they will be losing condition.

To answer another poster any dairy farmer who expects to calve heifers at two years old has to gain this on average and can't put it on in bursts as it effects their ability to milk later. Notions like compensatory growth and consequential finishing at three years old are at the heart of many of the inefficiencies inherent in the irish beef industry imo.

keep going

freedominacup wrote: »

Not for a growing animal. I must correct myself it should have been .7. Maintenance for an adult animal is just to keep the animal alive but what animal is supposed to be just kept alive. Suckler and dairy cows do actually lose weight annually for a period after calving but then would be expected to be gaining slowly.

Maintenance for a growing animal is gaining weight. If they aren't gaining around .7 they will be losing condition.

To answer another poster any dairy farmer who expects to calve heifers at two years old has to gain this on average and can't put it on in bursts as it effects their ability to milk later. Notions like compensatory growth and consequential finishing at three years old are at the heart of many of the inefficiencies inherent in the irish beef industry imo.

I could never get satisfactory in calf heifers until I out wintered and availed of compensatory growth with early grass.down our way its almost a crime not to get bulling heifrrs out early but I can understand different strategies with farmers up the country

Muckit

freedominacup wrote: »

Maintenance gr is .75kg/day. Below that an animal is actually going backwards.

You mentioned thison more than one occasion. Pure balderdash as far as l'm concerned.

Once they don't stick the four legs up in the air and the weight goes up and not down you're doing alright.

Blackgrass

Muckit wrote: »

You mentioned thison more than one occasion. Pure balderdash as far as l'm concerned.

Once they don't stick the four legs up in the air and the weight goes up and not down you're doing alright.

There's a difference in growth and developement, to match maintenance would that not be to keep an animal the same as when it enters a shed in the autumn where as a young animal will still be growing it's frame but no filling it out is what i reckon Freedom is getting at.

Muckit

And what's wrong with growing frame? That's what the meat hangs off btw

49801

My view on compensatory growth is it is a cost saving to not feed nuts from Xmas or there abouts onwards.

There are more variables of course like the type of animal and BCS

freedominacup

Muckit wrote: »

You mentioned thison more than one occasion. Pure balderdash as far as l'm concerned.

Once they don't stick the four legs up in the air and the weight goes up and not down you're doing alright.

You might consider it balderdash and you're entitled to your opinion however the fact is that a for a growing animal .7kg/gr is maintenance. Not my opinion, researched fact. Young animals normal state of being is to be growing and fairly strongly growing at that. Maintenance for a young animal reflects this. The better farmers among the dairy fraternity on here would have heifer gr as one of their top five obsessions. They're always crowing when they're on target. Funnily enough their gr target works out at more or less .7kg/day. Surely no ones going to tell me that a premium beef animal could be growing at a lower rate than one of these useless (from a beef perspective) ho or jex heifers and be doing well.

Hershall

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

How much is it worth extra in weight gain lads. I sold a few year and a half old heifers yesterday that were out on the winterage and getting a small few nuts and I was disgusted with their weights. They weren't the best made animals ever produced but were stretchy bits of stores with a good fleece and a shine off them. 340kg, got 980 for them. They would have to turn inside out when the hit grass but I'm just wondering how much extra is it worth compared to cattle that would have been housed for the winter? They weren't the quietest either which probably held back the price a bit.

I like to buy them raggy this time of the year those hot cattle not much addition unless you intend to keep going with them.

mf240

Muckit wrote: »

You mentioned thison more than one occasion. Pure balderdash as far as l'm concerned.

Once they don't stick the four legs up in the air and the weight goes up and not down you're doing alright.

Theres a fine line though especially with younger stock and if they get stunted when there young they will never meet their potential.

I suppose theres a happy medium where cattle are not pushed but not stunted either.

Farmer Pudsey

Feeding ration cattle that convert at over 12/1 is a loss making venture. There is always one in a pen that cannot stretch his neck far enough. He comes out of the shed way behind the rest. he usuall has caught up by june to where he should be.

Stunting happens in general in first 3 months of live in cattle. After that they can survive setbacks. I would be very happy with 0.5kg LW gain over the winter. Feed only silage to stronger stores. This year I had about 18 out of 70 that were lighter these I fed about 2kg/day until mid February.

If I had good quality Contenintals I might be tempted to feed same but not dairy cross stores. One thing i noticed was the way the few AA, HE and better FR type store managed way better than the HO tyre on such treatment. Mind you I think they are even less profitable to be throwing 2-3kgs of rartion into over the winter.

I agree with Freedom if I had valulable dairy heifers I would treat them different. But stores can survive away on silage. Much more important that ration is dosing twice for fluke and once for worms, minerals and calcium

Limestone Cowboy

The heifers I sold definitely weren't stunted anyway, they were scopey healthy cattle with a nice shine off them. I'd honestly say you wouldn't know them if they see 2 months of grass on good land.

Farrell

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Feeding ration cattle that convert at over 12/1 is a loss making venture. There is always one in a pen that cannot stretch his neck far enough. He comes out of the shed way behind the rest. he usuall has caught up by june to where he should be.

Stunting happens in general in first 3 months of live in cattle. After that they can survive setbacks. I would be very happy with 0.5kg LW gain over the winter. Feed only silage to stronger stores. This year I had about 18 out of 70 that were lighter these I fed about 2kg/day until mid February.

If I had good quality Contenintals I might be tempted to feed same but not dairy cross stores. One thing i noticed was the way the few AA, HE and better FR type store managed way better than the HO tyre on such treatment. Mind you I think they are even less profitable to be throwing 2-3kgs of rartion into over the winter.

I agree with Freedom if I had valulable dairy heifers I would treat them different. But stores can survive away on silage. Much more important that ration is dosing twice for fluke and once for worms, minerals and calcium

What calcium dose do you give?
With regard dosing twice, 4-6wk after housing, when next Dec/ Jan?

Farmer Pudsey

Farrell wrote: »

What calcium dose do you give?
With regard dosing twice, 4-6wk after housing, when next Dec/ Jan?

It depends on what you dose with. I dose after two weeks with something that will kill fluke from 6 week stage on. I will dose a second time about 6-8 weeks later for fluke. I give calcium in the form of agrical cubicle lime. I uses bagged minerals and this year I bought rock sale 70 stores used 250kgs of it in 100ish days.

AP2014

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It depends on what you dose with. I dose after two weeks with something that will kill fluke from 6 week stage on. I will dose a second time about 6-8 weeks later for fluke. I give calcium in the form of agrical cubicle lime. I uses bagged minerals and this year I bought rock sale 70 stores used 250kgs of it in 100ish days.

Pudsey, every year I just use Ivomec classic pour on. It seems to do the job and last years cattle thrived well. It was exceptional dry year and great grass growth.

Do you think this dose is sufficient or should I be mixing it up with something else?

freedominacup

AP2014 wrote: »

Pudsey, every year I just use Ivomec classic pour on. It seems to do the job and last years cattle thrived well. It was exceptional dry year and great grass growth.

Do you think this dose is sufficient or should I be mixing it up with something else?

For a man as cost conscious as yourself I would have thought you would be using one of the wide range of ivermectins available at a much lower cost.

AP2014

freedominacup wrote: »

For a man as cost conscious as yourself I would have thought you would be using one of the wide range of ivermectins available at a much lower cost.

Not cost conscious on this one. It's one of my biggest expenses along with vet testing fee. I will stick to Ivomec as getting good results last few years with it. Although I agree it is expensive but it's all I use.

Should I use a low cost drench for fluke in combination with it? Gotten away without until now.

Farmer Pudsey

AP2014 wrote: »

Not cost conscious on this one. It's one of my biggest expenses along with vet testing fee. I will stick to Ivomec as getting good results last few years with it. Although I agree it is expensive but it's all I use.

Should I use a low cost drench for fluke in combination with it? Gotten away without until now.

Ivomec Classic only treats worms. Many generic forms that are way cheaper. Bimectin and Animectin are branded generics but you can also get Turbomec, kilomec etc. Turbomec is available online for 32 euro gor 500mls.

https://www.agridirect.ie/p/turbomec_injection__500ml

However none of the above treat fluke. You have been lucky especially with the type of store you buy that you have not got an animal that is badly infected with fluke.

Drenches are the cheapest to treat fluke however Flukiver or trodax are good products and treat fluke from 6 week stage. An avermectin super will treat from two week stage.

TUBBY

AP2014 wrote: »

Not cost conscious on this one. It's one of my biggest expenses along with vet testing fee. I will stick to Ivomec as getting good results last few years with it. Although I agree it is expensive but it's all I use.

Should I use a low cost drench for fluke in combination with it? Gotten away without until now.

if ya only use an ivermectin without change to another active, it might lose its effectiveness. A resistance can be bilt up to it. If you on dry land, you mightn't suffer with fluke too bad unless they have it when bought in. Any oral fluke dose very cheap though.

Farmer Pudsey

TUBBY wrote: »

if ya only use an ivermectin without change to another active, it might lose its effectiveness. A resistance can be bilt up to it. If you on dry land, you mightn't suffer with fluke too bad unless they have it when bought in. Any oral fluke dose very cheap though.

The issue is treating it at bought in stage. Had a Ch bull about 8 years ago taht never thrived. looking back at it I had treated him for both fluke and worms. Suspect now that it was stomach fluke. Was not highlighted then.

AP2014

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The issue is treating it at bought in stage. Had a Ch bull about 8 years ago taht never thrived. looking back at it I had treated him for both fluke and worms. Suspect now that it was stomach fluke. Was not highlighted then.

Thanks will look at something cheap for fluke. Are there any pour ons for it? Or is it cheap drench and a bottle down the neck job?

It is crucial for me as although land not wet I buy in all and all from west so potential for fluke. I have dodged a bullet up until now. As I don't meal it's crucial to get a healthy animal and keep him that way with grass in front of him.

Farmer Pudsey

AP2014 wrote: »

Thanks will look at something cheap for fluke. Are there any pour ons for it? Or is it cheap drench and a bottle down the neck job?

It is crucial for me as although land not wet I buy in all and all from west so potential for fluke. I have dodged a bullet up until now. As I don't meal it's crucial to get a healthy animal and keep him that way with grass in front of him.

Not a fan of pour-on's Flukiver or trodax injections.

AP2014

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Not a fan of pour-on's Flukiver or trodax injections.

Thanks I splashed out on this at Xmas.

https://www.agridirect.ie/p/ivomec_classic_pouron

I will get a bottle of this now. Should do me for the year.

https://www.agridirect.ie/p/flukiver_injection_250ml

smokey-fitz

AP2014 wrote: »

Thanks will look at something cheap for fluke. Are there any pour ons for it? Or is it cheap drench and a bottle down the neck job?

It is crucial for me as although land not wet I buy in all and all from west so potential for fluke. I have dodged a bullet up until now. As I don't meal it's crucial to get a healthy animal and keep him that way with grass in front of him.

A generic brand ivomectin super ie animec super will probably do the job. If you are buying and they are coming out of a shed, if any fluke is present it will be mature fluke. Also if they werent dosed properly by privious owner a worm dose wouldnt be a bad idea. Albex drench will do both too and its cheap only downside is its a drech. Hatefull job :P

AP2014

smokey-fitz wrote: »

A generic brand ivomectin super ie animec super will probably do the job. If you are buying and they are coming out of a shed, if any fluke is present it will be mature fluke. Also if they werent dosed properly by privious owner a worm dose wouldnt be a bad idea. Albex drench will do both too and its cheap only downside is its a drech. Hatefull job :P

Thanks, I have Ivomec classic pour-on got already. Will get this fluke drench or the injection pudsey recommends. Got away with it last year it seems.

Will look at this next year as it does worms and fluke.

https://www.agridirect.ie/p/ivomec_super

Nekarsulm

Has anyone heard from Conor from Monaghan lately?

tanko

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Has anyone heard from Conor from Monaghan lately?

I think he was last sighted in the Squealing Pig:D

Nekarsulm

The Pig or the Paragon, either would do!

I said

tanko wrote: »

I think he was last sighted in the Squealing Pig:D

Is that place still on the go got twisted in it around 15yrs ago work related session