Fixing my run... rookie

jank

My run is my far my weakest event in my Tri. I am not a natural runner it must be said. I have had a number of PT and physios comment to me that my body shape is not that conducive to endurance running. I am built more for hitting people in contact sports like Rugby or Kickboxing than being lite and lean.

My bike is by far my best event even though I never train for it. I jump on the bike and pass loads of people... yet on the run most of these pass me back
Kinda disheartening when I train 3 times a week in my running with zero training for the bike.

My 3 seasons are split between a 6k run which I try to keep at my 5k pace, which is at or below 6min per Km, another season at track which I do with a group. Generally speed work here which I do find I am getting faster and better at. We could be doing anything like 6-8 1 Km intervals, pyramids of 400m 800m 1200m 160m and back down to 400m again and so on. The last season of the week again with a group is more hill running, fast-slow-fast type training.

I suppose I lack endurance and that I struggle to get my pace up. When I go for my 6KM I am now finding that my first two km are always slower than my last two km. I kinda feel tight and tired but when I get into the rhythm of about 6 min a km, I can then push it a bit to 5:30 a km and keep going. I can't do this at the start though.

When I was racing over the weekend an OK swim, decent ish bike but could not push my run at all for the life of me. Heart rate monitor tells me that I am pushing it but maybe I need to push it more?

My weight does not help either I would gather. I am about 5'11" 91KG. Probably need to be very low 80's. Not going to happen over night but am working on it. 4 kgs gone the past 8-9 weeks.

Should I be going on longer but easier runs or do I need more hills? Bare in mind that I have not been running all that long either.

rooneyjm

If you want to fix it then there are probably no quick fixes. Sound like you might have the answer yourself, any extra weight(body fat) is going to hamper your efforts. Most run/tri coaches would advocate one longish run as part of your three runs. Maybe slow down your 6k run a bit and add 1k per week for 10-12 weeks. Long runs with a low heart rate will also help the fat burning, your heart doesnt have to be bursting out of your chest for all your running.

On the other hand I know a lot for guys who are v good at swimming or cycling, or both but not good at running. Mechanics or muscle memory from years at other sports, be what it may but they cant seem to get going when it comes to the run. One thing you will notice is most of the best runners are slim and trim so stay at it.

Keep it up.

tunney

jank wrote: »

My run is my far my weakest event in my Tri. I am not a natural runner it must be said. I have had a number of PT and physios comment to me that my body shape is not that conducive to endurance running. I am built more for hitting people in contact sports like Rugby or Kickboxing than being lite and lean.

My bike is by far my best event even though I never train for it. I jump on the bike and pass loads of people... yet on the run most of these pass me back
Kinda disheartening when I train 3 times a week in my running with zero training for the bike.

My 3 seasons are split between a 6k run which I try to keep at my 5k pace, which is at or below 6min per Km, another season at track which I do with a group. Generally speed work here which I do find I am getting faster and better at. We could be doing anything like 6-8 1 Km intervals, pyramids of 400m 800m 1200m 160m and back down to 400m again and so on. The last season of the week again with a group is more hill running, fast-slow-fast type training.

I suppose I lack endurance and that I struggle to get my pace up. When I go for my 6KM I am now finding that my first two km are always slower than my last two km. I kinda feel tight and tired but when I get into the rhythm of about 6 min a km, I can then push it a bit to 5:30 a km and keep going. I can't do this at the start though.

When I was racing over the weekend an OK swim, decent ish bike but could not push my run at all for the life of me. Heart rate monitor tells me that I am pushing it but maybe I need to push it more?

My weight does not help either I would gather. I am about 5'11" 91KG. Probably need to be very low 80's. Not going to happen over night but am working on it. 4 kgs gone the past 8-9 weeks.

Should I be going on longer but easier runs or do I need more hills? Bare in mind that I have not been running all that long either.

Either you are built like a brick sh1tehouse and have 4% bodyfat and LOADS of muscle. Or you are very very much overweight. If the former a hard choice whether you want to lose the muscle or not. If the latter, which is usually the case, you need to lose weight. 4 seconds a kilo a km. Thats the price of fat or non-functional muscle.

What were you swim/bike/run splits?

peter kern

at your weight not longer but more frequent runs.
ie double run 6 k am 6 k pm run of the bike run after a swim for short periods
and no rush its a long term process over 2-4 years.

jank

rooneyjm wrote: »

If you want to fix it then there are probably no quick fixes. Sound like you might have the answer yourself, any extra weight(body fat) is going to hamper your efforts. Most run/tri coaches would advocate one longish run as part of your three runs. Maybe slow down your 6k run a bit and add 1k per week for 10-12 weeks. Long runs with a low heart rate will also help the fat burning, your heart doesnt have to be bursting out of your chest for all your running.

On the other hand I know a lot for guys who are v good at swimming or cycling, or both but not good at running. Mechanics or muscle memory from years at other sports, be what it may but they cant seem to get going when it comes to the run. One thing you will notice is most of the best runners are slim and trim so stay at it.

Keep it up.

Yes, its going to be a long road I think. I have done years of Martial arts and Strength Training which was all very short bursts of effort, rather then a long continuous segment of work. Weight is obviously holding me back. The thing is though my speed work has improved quite a bit at the track yet my 5k times have not even remotely improved as much. You are correct, probably longer runs but slightly slower.

Spoke to the coach tonight about it and she recommended tempo runs. 10 min warm up, 20 min continuous hard, 10 min easy cool off. Add some hills in the 20 min...this should see an improvement over a few weeks. She knows her stuff so I think I will try that for a bit.
I suppose I find this training so hard I avoid it which is stupid I know but in the long run I have to do it. No quick fixes here.

pointer28

If you're able to run 6k at your 5k pace then your 5k pace can't be right.

StaggerLee

tunney wrote: »

Either you are built like a brick sh1tehouse and have 4% bodyfat and LOADS of muscle. Or you are very very much overweight. If the former a hard choice whether you want to lose the muscle or not. If the latter, which is usually the case, you need to lose weight. 4 seconds a kilo a km. Thats the price of fat or non-functional muscle.

What were you swim/bike/run splits?

Is that 4 seconds per kg applicable to people at any weight / body fat percentage?
If you're 3/4 kgs over weight or are carrying a bit too much body fat would dropping 3 kilos or 3 % body fat to get under 10 % say... Give you 12 seconds per km (if in good condition)?

tunney

StaggerLee wrote: »

Is that 4 seconds per kg applicable to people at any weight / body fat percentage?
If you're 3/4 kgs over weight or are carrying a bit too much body fat would dropping 3 kilos or 3 % body fat to get under 10 % say... Give you 12 seconds per km (if in good condition)?

its a rule of thumb with diminishing returns towards the leaner side.

desertcircus

OP: similar situation here (I'm five-nine and about 93kg). I joined a triathlon club about this time last year, having been a rugby player. The structured running sessions have helped hugely, and Tunney's 4s/kg/km formula provided a huge target for me - three kilos lost is potentially two minutes over the course of a 10k.

If you haven't been running long, it might be worth picking a local Parkrun and running it every few weeks: you'll be able to chart your progress with each result. Other than that, weight loss is realistically the primary longterm goal if you want to do as well as you can - being over ninety kilos and under six feet just doesn't work in an endurance sport.

desertcircus

tunney wrote: »

its a rule of thumb with diminishing returns towards the leaner side.

Does this hold true for muscle loss as well as fat loss?

tunney

desertcircus wrote: »

Does this hold true for muscle loss as well as fat loss?

Non functional muscle.

That is if you lose your VMOs, hamstrings and glutes thats no good.

But if you lose the massive pecs, biceps, lats and other muscles that look great but do nothing in running then yes.

Show me a kenyan distance runner with guns......

niamh.foley

just to jump in,

my run is also my weakest.. i pass people out on the bike and then on the Run its as what Enda would say Boom Boom my legs would be shouting out.

so to combat this, i went away and join my Local AC club running 3 - 4 times a week, and notice a big difference in my running.

you need to be doing some brick work aswell to get the muscles used to the Transition from bike to run.

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

just to jump in,

my run is also my weakest.. i pass people out on the bike and then on the Run its as what Enda would say Boom Boom my legs would be shouting out.

so to combat this, i went away and join my Local AC club running 3 - 4 times a week, and notice a big difference in my running.

The local running club is something most tend to do. Its also something I would advise against. Running well in a triathlon is not a function of being a good runner. Its a result of being a good bike-runner.

niamh.foley wrote: »

you need to be doing some brick work aswell to get the muscles used to the Transition from bike to run.

I also don't see this as import as some to. Very very targeted brick work yes. However what tends to be the case is after a long slow bike there is a run that is too long and too slow.

If you want to be run well off the bike you have to be strong on the bike. Otherwise what happens is the bike is overcooked, the run suffers, and then people tend to focus on their running to run better off the bike and neglect their biking and surprise surprise the next year there have been no gains.

Bike hard to run fast.

My 2c

ray o

tunney wrote: »

If you want to be run well off the bike you have to be strong on the bike. Otherwise what happens is the bike is overcooked, the run suffers.

He's right. I was that soldier. Some very disappointing olympic distance runs as a result of not putting the work in on the bike.

niamh.foley

ray o wrote: »

He's right. I was that soldier. Some very disappointing olympic distance runs as a result of not putting the work in on the bike.

So where do you go from putting the work on the bike and still being S**it on the Run ?

i can cycle 90km + no problem at around avg of 35km per hour

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

So where do you go from putting the work on the bike and still being S**it on the Run ?

i can cycle 90km + no problem at around avg of 35km per hour

Suggests that at least one of the following is true:
1) You are overweight
2) Your rule volume is too low
3) Your biking isn't as strong as you think and you cannot cycle 90km at 35kpg no problem.

Personally I call bull on "i can cycle 90km + no problem at around avg of 35km per hour". Do feel free to prove me wrong with a Garmin file from a training spin with low HR, or a half ironman result with a good run off it.

tunney

tunney wrote: »

Suggests that at least one of the following is true:
1) You are overweight
2) Your rule volume is too low
3) Your biking isn't as strong as you think and you cannot cycle 90km at 35kpg no problem.

Personally I call bull on "i can cycle 90km + no problem at around avg of 35km per hour". Do feel free to prove me wrong with a Garmin file from a training spin with low HR, or a half ironman result with a good run off it.

Should clarify a 90km solo ride not one tucked in at the back of a group doing no work.
On Irish roads 35kph for a road bike would be about 280-290 watts, assuming a 0.8 as a half Ironman multiplier thats about an FTP of 360 watts.
On a TT bike maybe 250-260 maybe 315 as the FTP.

Yes I am to a certain extent making the numbers up but they have a firm grounding in reality. Unlike some other numbers

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

Should clarify a 90km solo ride not one tucked in at the back of a group doing no work.

most of my ride are with groups

solo would be

ime: 2:38:37 Moving Time: 2:37:57 Elapsed Time: 2:38:41 Avg Speed: 17.5 mph Avg Moving Speed: 17.6 mph Max Speed: 28.5 mph

Elevation
Elevation Gain: 1,201 ft Elevation Loss: 1,217 ft Min Elevation: -20 ft Max Elevation: 266 ft

sconhome

niamh.foley wrote: »

i can cycle 90km + no problem at around avg of 35km per hour

Is that a light training spin or are you talking about race pace?

niamh.foley

AKW wrote: »

Is that a light training spin or are you talking about race pace?

Training would be shot and hard over the week days, Weekends would be Long and light

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

most of my ride are with groups

solo would be

Time: 2:38:37 Moving Time: 2:37:57 Elapsed Time: 2:38:41 Avg Speed: 17.5 mph Avg Moving Speed: 17.6 mph Max Speed: 28.5 mph

Elevation
Elevation Gain: 1,201 ft Elevation Loss: 1,217 ft Min Elevation: -20 ft Max Elevation: 266 ft

The solo rides, or the ones if you drag the group, are the rides which would be indicative. That ride is 28kph for 70km. Which is respectable enough but not 35kph for 90km.

What would be your weekly run volume?

tunney

Also what height and weight are you?

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

The solo rides, or the ones if you drag the group, are the rides which would be indicative. That ride is 28kph for 70km. Which is respectable enough but not 35kph for 90km.

What would be your weekly run volume?

currently i'm doing

8-10miles on Sundays, my last run was 8miles in 1hr 07mins.

i would have speed workout and Tempo runs along with a Recovery 4mile run at a very slow pace. since joining my local AC i have notice a big drop in run times, so i am looking forward to upcoming races to see how i get on in the run,

haven't done a bike ride in about a month due to Cassette and chain needing replacement.

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

currently i'm doing

8-10miles on Sundays, my last run was 8miles in 1hr 07mins.

i would have speed workout and Tempo runs along with a Recovery 4mile run at a very slow pace. since joining my local AC i have notice a big drop in run times, so i am looking forward to upcoming races to see how i get on in the run,

haven't done a bike ride in about a month due to Cassette and chain needing replacement.

So running four times a week now. Assuming then based on previous comments you ran less frequently until recently?

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

So running four times a week now. Assuming then based on previous comments you ran less frequently until recently?

yes i would run about 10km on Sunday, with one speed session and some times i use to run 5km maybe on a friday.

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

yes i would run about 10km on Sunday, with one speed session and some times i use to run 5km maybe on a friday.

So being perfectly blunt, you didn't do any run training and were surprised that the run leg in a triathlon went badly?

Think we have found your problem.......

The comments made about run and bike training being interlinked did assume training in both disciplines

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

So being perfectly blunt, you didn't do any run training and were surprised that the run leg in a triathlon went badly?

Think we have found your problem.......

The comments made about run and bike training being interlinked did assume training in both disciplines

Well i am hoping that is my problem.

currently since im not doing Bike Training on the Road, i am doing 2 Interval Training sessions using a Wattbike,

AirBreak gear Lever set to 2 or 3
Magnet Gear Tension would be set to 1.

so my RPM would be
Recovery 70-80 rpm
Easy 80-90rpm
Tempo - 95-100 rpm
hard 103+ rpm


wu:5 mins easy, 5x(30s hard, 30s easy).
main set: 4x (1 min easy, 2.5 mins steady, 5 mins tempo, 90s hard)
w. 2.5 mins recovery.
10 mins cool down

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

Well i am hoping that is my problem.

currently since im not doing Bike Training on the Road, i am doing 2 Interval Training sessions using a Wattbike,

AirBreak gear Lever set to 2 or 3
Magnet Gear Tension would be set to 1.

so my RPM would be
Recovery 70-80 rpm
Easy 80-90rpm
Tempo - 95-100 rpm
hard 103+ rpm


wu:5 mins easy, 5x(30s hard, 30s easy).
main set: 4x (1 min easy, 2.5 mins steady, 5 mins tempo, 90s hard)
w. 2.5 mins recovery.
10 mins cool down

Assuming that the AirBreak and Magnet business means a fixed level of resistance and you spin faster to increase perceived effort or wattage.

If this is the case I think you need to change your bike sessions.

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

Assuming that the AirBreak and Magnet business means a fixed level of resistance and you spin faster to increase perceived effort or wattage.

If this is the case I think you need to change your bike sessions.

isnt that the same effort of a Turbo Trainer ?

when you say you need to change your bike sessions what would you Recommend

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

isnt that the same effort of a Turbo Trainer ?

I've no idea. Turbo trainer can mean a Computrainer, Kickr, fluid traininer with adjustable resistance or a simple fan based one.

niamh.foley wrote: »

when you say you need to change your bike sessions what would you Recommend

Changing your cadence to change the effort is not a great idea. Change the load and maintain the same cadence that you will race at.

Also 4x (1 min easy, 2.5 mins steady, 5 mins tempo, 90s hard) even if you change the load rather than the cadence. Tempo efforts are normally maintained for an hour or so, steady is less than tempo so......... There isn;t much work there at all.

MojoMaker

This is turning out to be a very interesting thread. Thanks for jumping in Niamh.

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

Also 4x (1 min easy, 2.5 mins steady, 5 mins tempo, 90s hard) even if you change the load rather than the cadence. Tempo efforts are normally maintained for an hour or so, steady is less than tempo so......... There isn;t much work there at all.

when i use the wattbike i dont change the Load / make the gears to a higher level...

what i do is cycle harder .. up the Cadence / RPM

mossym

niamh.foley wrote: »

when i use the wattbike i dont change the Load / make the gears to a higher level...

what i do is cycle harder .. up the Cadence / RPM

which isn't the same thing as changing the load. out on the bike you don't ride in one gear and just vary your cadence(outside of a small range), you change the gears to adjust the load.

tunney is rightly saying change the load, not your cadence. although some cadence work is good too

68 lost souls

In my relative inexperience I would agree in changing the load not the cadence, although for the 90s hard I would up it.

For me on a turbo session I would try and sustain 90rpm throughout the session unless I am doing intervals of say 30 on 30 off, I would go up to 110-120rpm in the highest gear and then ease off and back to 85-90rpm.

Also repeating the same set consistently like that would not be ideal. Change up the length of intervals so your body doesn't get lazy, doing the same set again and again will show limited improvements.

Try add in a few sustained efforts with a run off it. A tough session I did recently was 5 minutes at 75% 5 minutes at about 78%, 6 minutes at 80%, 4 minutes at 83%, 7 minutes at 85%, 3 minutes at 87%, 8 minutes at 90%, 2 minutes flat out and then a short tun off the bike. A few sessions like that could help.

Would be interested in hearing Tunney's take on these types of sessions.

peter kern

niamh.foley wrote: »

when i use the wattbike i dont change the Load / make the gears to a higher level...

what i do is cycle harder .. up the Cadence / RPM

And this is wrong as tunny already pointed out

tunney

68 lost souls wrote: »

In my relative inexperience I would agree in changing the load not the cadence, although for the 90s hard I would up it.

For me on a turbo session I would try and sustain 90rpm throughout the session unless I am doing intervals of say 30 on 30 off, I would go up to 110-120rpm in the highest gear and then ease off and back to 85-90rpm.

High cadence work has its place but again you could increase the load or gearing and maintain cadence as well. I personally found this changed my build efforts and hard efforts quite a lot. I would do both types though

68 lost souls wrote: »

Also repeating the same set consistently like that would not be ideal. Change up the length of intervals so your body doesn't get lazy, doing the same set again and again will show limited improvements.

Agree completely. I am a firm believer that the turbo is not boring, just that sessions can be.

68 lost souls wrote: »

Try add in a few sustained efforts with a run off it. A tough session I did recently was 5 minutes at 75% 5 minutes at about 78%, 6 minutes at 80%, 4 minutes at 83%, 7 minutes at 85%, 3 minutes at 87%, 8 minutes at 90%, 2 minutes flat out and then a short tun off the bike. A few sessions like that could help.

Would be interested in hearing Tunney's take on these types of sessions.

What are were talking about here %MHR, %FTP ?

68 lost souls

I'm talking about %MHR.

I would also say that perhaps low cadence work is important as well, you're not going to be able to replicate exactly a climb but grinding out a high power low cadence can get pretty close. Should help build power and also will help on the road transitioning from uphill to flat.

tunney

68 lost souls wrote: »

I'm talking about %MHR.

I would also say that perhaps low cadence work is important as well, you're not going to be able to replicate exactly a climb but grinding out a high power low cadence can get pretty close. Should help build power and also will help on the road transitioning from uphill to flat.

Then I'd not be a fan to be honest. You really need to determine LTHR and base sessions off that. And if turboing and using HR you *need* a big a$$ fan.

68 lost souls

I have my LTHR, did a test a few weeks ago and also did a VO2max test last week. Should I be working as a percentage of that?

Normally on the turbo Im between to full length windows both open full with a breeze coming through.

tunney

68 lost souls wrote: »

I have my LTHR, did a test a few weeks ago and also did a VO2max test last week. Should I be working as a percentage of that?

Normally on the turbo Im between to full length windows both open full with a breeze coming through.

Thats not going to be enough I am afraid! You need a fan too! Trust me on this.

Read this for zones http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2009/11/quick-guide-to-setting-zones.html

niamh.foley

http://wattbike.com/uk/blog/post/pre_season_preparation_series_the_10_mile_time_trial

Yea or nay

For the above

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

http://wattbike.com/uk/blog/post/pre_season_preparation_series_the_10_mile_time_trial

Yea or nay

For the above

For the plan in there?

Do many of your races have a 16km cycle?

niamh.foley

tunney wrote: »

For the plan in there?

Do many of your races have a 16km cycle?

Sprint and olpymic tri
From 20km to 44km races

I was looking at it as an early spring fitness training where I can take 2 sessions and use on the wattbike and have a slow 25km per hour 70km + ride over the weekend

tunney

niamh.foley wrote: »

Sprint and olpymic tri
From 20km to 44km races

I was looking at it as an early spring fitness training where I can take 2 sessions and use on the wattbike and have a slow 25km per hour 70km + ride over the weekend

But I thought you were good for 90km at 35kph?

What I was saying with my last comment, which perhaps should have been in a different colour, was a mischievous comment intended to point out that not only are none of the bike legs that you will be doing as short as 10 miler time trial none of them will be cycling events.

Training should suit the event to be done, not the book/plan/notion had.

jank

OK, so an update. In the past number of weeks I have gone on to compete in two other Sprint Tri's.

Took some advice from here and from my coach. Incorporated tempo runs into my routine which seemed to have worked. It also helped that I have shed a good few kilos since the new year, about 7 kilos in all.

I banged out a 27:02 and a 27:10 5k in each. Better than the 30:00 or so when I ran in Wollongong. Progress but still want to break the 25 min bar.
The standard yesterday was particularly good. Many ran sub 20's with a few breaking 16 minutes. My bike is still my best event but I think I need to do some training on it so that I can reach my potential on the run.

Want to break the 1:20 in the Sprint, did 1:22:59 yesterday. Minutes to be gained on the bike and run still. Eyeing up a 70.3 as well next year pending I don't die during an Olympic. Have heard good things about Cairns, the bike course is meant to be stunning!

Its going on winter here so the plan is to lose more weight, hit the gym for strength training, get down to the low 80's kg and keep my running/cardio fitness while I do some off season training.

rooneyjm

Good stuff. One thing, i'd forget the strength training and do more of swimming, biking or running. Bit of core work a few times a week but other than that swim, bike, run, repeat repeat repeat.