Journey to a Sub 40

niamh.foley

So, Here it is my Training Log which i hope to aim towards my goal journey to get to a Sub 40 min 10k and a sub 20min 5k.
in the past i would run in the summer months and end up being like a bear ready to go into hibernation when it came to the winter months, doing zero milage or runs at that. but if i want to get my goal and keep it something has to change, that bear that wants to go into hibernate stage will have to go else where..

if my goal pace fails at the 10k mark i would be happy with a sub 45 min for a 10k but i really want to get to a sub 20 for a 5k..


Currently my PB are

24min - 5k
48min - 10k
43min - 5 miles
1hr 28 mins 10 miles

My Training week will be as follows

Tuesday - Speed Session
Thursday - Recovery Run 5 miles at 8:40 - 9 min Miles
Friday - Tempo 4 miles 7:50 - 8:30 min Miles
Sunday - Long Run... 5 - 10miles depending on people 8 - 9 min Miles

I am hoping with the Speed Session and Long Runs i should be able to drop under the 8 min mark more towards the end of the Run then at the start of the run.


so to kick it off

Tuesday;
i was set to do 12 x 400m at a pace of around 4:30 pace per km but i took it upon myself to speed things up alittle, as i though 4:30 pace was a bit slow.

so i did 8 x 400m at a pace of 4:00 next i did 2 x 400m at a pace of 3:45 per km and finally, just to drain the tank alittle more and to burn those god for saking mcvities Chocolate Digestive i had last night i did my last two sets at 3:38 per km

menoscemo

Fair Play for setting up a log and setting such a big goal.

First look at your training schedule would say to me that the main barrier to improvement at the moment is lack of overall mileage. 20ish miles a week over 4 runs is not really going to help you improve no matter how many speed sessions you are doing. So try to increase volumes and frequency. I would definitely look at getting your long run up well over 10 miles going forward.

Also your paces seem to be off based on current ability. Your 5 mile recovery run on Thursday is at you current 10 mile PB pace which is way off. It should be about 2 minutes/mile slower than that.

So basically add in more true easy/recovery runs, flesh out those sessions and look at increasing the long run.

Best of luck with it.

walshb

Hell of a goal there. Best of luck.

Ososlo

Best of luck with your goals!
How long do you think it'll take to achieve them?
Some of your times are similar to my own and I'm also concentrating on 5&10k distances so will follow with interest!
I'd be a hell of a long way off any of those targets though!
The pace you're doing your recovery runs is crazy though! Pace really shouldn't be a concern at all for those runs. I'd sometimes jog them up to 11 min mile pace if my legs were tired. I'd say slow them way down and you'll be much fresher for your fast sessions.
Good luck!

niamh.foley

Ososlo wrote: »

Best of luck with your goals!
How long do you think it'll take to achieve them?
Some of your times are similar to my own and I'm also concentrating on 5&10k distances so will follow with interest!
I'd be a hell of a long way off any of those targets though!
The pace you're doing your recovery runs is crazy though! Pace really shouldn't be a concern at all for those runs. I'd sometimes jog them up to 11 min mile pace if my legs were tired. I'd say slow them way down and you'll be much fresher for your fast sessions.
Good luck!

i dont know how long it will take, I think ill do the Limerick & Cork Half Marathon aim for 1:20 for Limerick and aim for a 1:30 for Cork see how i get on with that. but i think i do my Recovery at 10 - 11 min miles, that should bring me into the 55 min mark for a 5mile run which is not to bad.

Netwerk_Errer

niamh.foley wrote: »

So, Here it is my Training Log which i hope to aim towards my goal journey to get to a Sub 40 min 10k and a sub 20min 5k.
in the past i would run in the summer months and end up being like a bear ready to go into hibernation when it came to the winter months, doing zero milage or runs at that. but if i want to get my goal and keep it something has to change, that bear that wants to go into hibernate stage will have to go else where..

if my goal pace fails at the 10k mark i would be happy with a sub 45 min for a 10k but i really want to get to a sub 20 for a 5k..


Currently my PB are

24min - 5k
48min - 10k
43min - 5 miles
1hr 28 mins 10 miles

My Training week will be as follows

Tuesday - Speed Session
Thursday - Recovery Run 5 miles at 8:40 - 9 min Miles
Friday - Tempo 4 miles 7:50 - 8:30 min Miles
Sunday - Long Run... 5 - 10miles depending on people 8 - 9 min Miles


so to kick it off

Tuesday;
i was set to do 12 x 400m at a pace of around 4:30 pace per km but i took it upon myself to speed things up alittle, as i though 4:30 pace was a bit slow.

so i did 8 x 400m at a pace of 4:00 next i did 2 x 400m at a pace of 3:45 per km and finally, just to drain the tank alittle more and to burn those god for saking mcvities Chocolate Digestive i had last night i did my last two sets at 3:38 per km

I agree with the everyone else, You're running everything too fast. 8-9 minute miles for a long run is way too fast for your current ability. That would be a good range for someone who is in 42-43 minute 10k shape.

The part I have highlighted above leads me to believe you have a coach, Yeah? The scheduled workout would be a perfect one for where you are in fitness level. Making it as fast as you did takes away any benefit that the workout had. Running workouts too fast has nearly as much benefit as not running it at all.

The idea of a workout is to get you comfortable at an effort and pace just above your current fitness level.

I know you have this sub-40 goal but that's a bit far away as of yet. Patience is the key to making gains in running. Running the 400's at 4.30km is where you should be running them right now. Trust in the plan and the results will come.

walshb

Would her mile PB be about 6.15-6.30 based off 3.50 for 1000 metres

8-9 mins would be fairly handy for her?

Ososlo

walshb wrote: »

Would her mile PB be about 6.15-6.30 based off 3.50 for 1000 metres

8-9 mins would be fairly handy for her?

??? Her 5k pb is 24 mins so how could 8 min mile be handy?

walshb

Ososlo wrote: »

??? Her 5k pb is 24 mins so how could 8 min mile be handy?

I didn't notice that. Her 1 k is pretty decent. 6 mins 25 pace for a mile. Needs major endurance training then.

Would 2-3 miles recovery runs be pushing it at 9 mins pace?

niamh.foley

walshb wrote: »

I didn't notice that. Her 1 k is pretty decent. 6 mins 25 pace for a mile. Needs major endurance training then.

i can do 400 / 800 at a very nice pace,

but as you said its the endurance long runs 8 + miles is the key for me, i can feel the inner parts of the legs burning after 9mile mark.

I am coming from a Cycling and Swimming background.

Netwerk_Errer

walshb wrote: »

I didn't notice that. Her 1 k is pretty decent. 6 mins 25 pace for a mile. Needs major endurance training then.

Would 2-3 miles recovery runs be pushing it at 9 mins pace?

Yes, In fact, I'd go as far as saying that would be too fast for an easy run right now.

Netwerk_Errer

niamh.foley wrote: »

i can do 400 / 800 at a very nice pace,

but as you said its the endurance long runs 8 + miles is the key for me, i can feel the inner parts of the legs burning after 9mile mark.

I am coming from a Cycling and Swimming background.

I know it's nice to do 400/800s as fast as you can but it's not the way to run workouts if you want to improve.

You mentioned you were scheduled 12x400 at 4.30 per km. The reason it was scheduled at that pace was because it's slightly faster than your current 5k pace. You want to get comfortable at that pace so you run a total of 4800m(12x400m) at 4.30 pace to get more efficient and used to the effort level. Running workouts above that pace creates too much lactic acid. Believe it or not, in a workout like that, you want to run the repeats while only gaining the least amount of lactic you can.

It's all about remaining smooth throughout the workout. When you run them too fast, you are teaching your body too tense up and that wastes energy.

menoscemo

walshb wrote: »

Would her mile PB be about 6.15-6.30 based off 3.50 for 1000 metres

8-9 mins would be fairly handy for her?

OP's 10 mile PB is 1:28 which is 8:48/mile.
Doing a 5 mile run at 8;40-9minute/ mile is effectively doing half of a 10 mile race. In anyone's langauge that is a tempo run, not a recovery run. In fact if training for a 10 miler, running 5 miles@ goal pace would probably be as hard as the peak session for the target race.

Recovery and easy runs should always be a fair bit slower than (theoretical) Marathon pace which in the OP's case would probably be around 9:30/mile, so we are talking in the 10-11 minute mile range.

Given the ability to run tempos and intervals above racing ability; endurance is clearly the limiter here which means in order to improve more aerobic (i.e truly easy) miles are needed.

Bungy Girl

niamh.foley wrote: »

I think ill do the Limerick & Cork Half Marathon aim for 1:20 for Limerick and aim for a 1:30 for Cork see how i get on with that.

I may have misunderstood, in which case apologies, but are you aiming for a 1:20 half marathon this year ? Even a 1:30 is sub 7 min/mile pace

There is a lot of good advice from the other posters about slowing things down to improve your endurance. Best of luck with your training.

Murph_D

Hi Niamh. What's the attachment in your first post about?

Best of luck with the goals - certainly ambitious. Does your coach feel they are realistic in the shorter term or is this a longer term project?

walshb

menoscemo wrote: »

OP's 10 mile PB is 1:28 which is 8:48/mile.
Doing a 5 mile run at 8;40-9minute/ mile is effectively doing half of a 10 mile race. In anyone's langauge that is a tempo run, not a recovery run. In fact if training for a 10 miler, running 5 miles@ goal pace would probably be as hard as the peak session for the target race.

Recovery and easy runs should always be a fair bit slower than (theoretical) Marathon pace which in the OP's case would probably be around 9:30/mile, so we are talking in the 10-11 minute mile range.

Given the ability to run tempos and intervals above racing ability; endurance is clearly the limiter here which means in order to improve more aerobic (i.e truly easy) miles are needed.

Thanks.

I am not all that up on recovery runs. I suppose it's not an exact science as many runners are different. It's done to get the legs stretched and recovered from the hardship of a training session or race that was tough?

I remember after a 4 mile race my legs were very sore. I ran the next day to "recover" or what I thought was recover. I ran at about 7 min 30 mile pace for 3 miles. My race pace the previous day was 6 mins 15 average for 4 miles. Was I probably running the recovery too fast?

Apologies for posting a question on me in your thread, Niamh. Just the one.....

niamh.foley

Murph_D wrote: »

Hi Niamh. What's the attachment in your first post about?

Best of luck with the goals - certainly ambitious. Does your coach feel they are realistic in the shorter term or is this a longer term project?

I was giving it as part of Athletics Ireland Workshop its a plan of action for The Year, i havent spoke to my running coach about it, it is more a longer term project slowly knock the Mintues per mile off my runs.

niamh.foley

So from taking in what people said,

My New layout will be

Monday -> Swimming 2k AM, with a 3mile Slow Recovery Jog around Race Track @ 10min Mile

Tuesday -> Cycling indoor / Spinning,

Wednesday -> Speed Session

Thursday -> Cycling indoor / Spinning AM, With 3mile Recovery Jog 4mile @ 10min Mile

Friday -> Weights Training AM, Tempo Run PM pace 8 - 8:30 min per Mile depending on who shows up on the night.

Saturday -> either a Cycle or Swim AM, PM hoping to get out for a Recovery 2-3 mile run.

Sunday -> Long Run again distance can vary depending who shows up 5 - 12 miles at 8 - 9 min mile.

Tigerandahalf

That is a very full on week you have.
As someone who is learning to swim at the moment I am finding it is taking a lot out of me when I go running. It seems you are heading down the triathlon route given that you are combining all 3 in the week.
I don't know what base you are coming off but that is a very hectic week unless you have a very solid base under you. You will burn out, get run down and lose the enjoyment.
While it is nice to set ambitious targets it is more important to get enjoyment out of your running. Set a goal of running at least 30 miles a week with the majority being run at 9 min/m pace or slower. Forget about speed sessions for the moment. If there is a parkrun near you use that for your tempo run.
I was running a year before I did any speed sessions and I think looking back it helped me to build up a good base and avoid injury.
Best of luck with it.

annapr

niamh.foley wrote: »

So from taking in what people said,

My New layout will be

Monday -> Swimming 2k AM, with a 3mile Slow Recovery Jog around Race Track @ 10min Mile

Tuesday -> Cycling indoor / Spinning,

Wednesday -> Speed Session

Thursday -> Cycling indoor / Spinning AM, With 3mile Recovery Jog 4mile @ 10min Mile

Friday -> Weights Training AM, Tempo Run PM pace 8 - 8:30 min per Mile depending on who shows up on the night.

Saturday -> either a Cycle or Swim AM, PM hoping to get out for a Recovery 2-3 mile run.

Sunday -> Long Run again distance can vary depending who shows up 5 - 12 miles at 8 - 9 min mile.

Based on Meno's comments above, that still seems too fast for your long run...?

Dubgal72

Hi there, glad to see you have taken the plunge and started a log here, welcome! Lots of good advice here so far. Did I see Ironman mentioned in that spreadsheet :eek: ?
My tuppence worth would be to keep as much running as you can on grass, or at least mix it up with grass, road/Tarmac and trail. Have a chat with your coach too about a core and general strengthening routine. If you like, we can point you in the direction of a few here. I know that seems to be adding to your already hectic schedule but it's really worth it.
Most of all, listen to your body and don't be afraid to pull back if a) you are getting stale and 2)if you are not enjoying it. I know a lot of people incorporate a 'pull back' week into their schedule every four-five weeks, it keeps you fresh and benefits you more than ploughing on like a steam train

Best of luck, I'll be following with interest!

Dubgal72

walshb wrote: »

Thanks.

I am not all that up on recovery runs. I suppose it's not an exact science as many runners are different. It's done to get the legs stretched and recovered from the hardship of a training session or race that was tough?

I remember after a 4 mile race my legs were very sore. I ran the next day to "recover" or what I thought was recover. I ran at about 7 min 30 mile pace for 3 miles. My race pace the previous day was 6 mins 15 average for 4 miles. Was I probably running the recovery too fast?

Apologies for posting a question on me in your thread, Niamh. Just the one.....

Walshie...where's your own log?! Don't tell me you left it at home again....oh, the dog ate it again did it?

walshb

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Walshie...where's your own log?! Don't tell me you left it at home again....oh, the dog ate it again did it?

I'd have no problem logging sh1t. The problem is running sh1t.:)

menoscemo

walshb wrote: »

Thanks.

I am not all that up on recovery runs. I suppose it's not an exact science as many runners are different. It's done to get the legs stretched and recovered from the hardship of a training session or race that was tough?

I remember after a 4 mile race my legs were very sore. I ran the next day to "recover" or what I thought was recover. I ran at about 7 min 30 mile pace for 3 miles. My race pace the previous day was 6 mins 15 average for 4 miles. Was I probably running the recovery too fast?

Apologies for posting a question on me in your thread, Niamh. Just the one.....

Sorry to butt in Niamh but I just saw this now.
Yeah Walshie, I would be in the same ballpark regards pace in 5-10k races and my recovery runs the day after a race would be about 9:30/mile (although to be fair that's not a choice, it'd be all I can manage!!).
It's not uncommon to hear of the top kenyan marathon runners running 9 min/miles before and after sessions/races and that would be double their Marathon Pace.

Getting back to the OP, I definitely agree with Anna that the proposed long run pace seems way too fast, again it is at or faster than 10 mile race pace so it will effectively become a race every week. It would be much more beneficial to slow down the long run and add a few miles to it, e.g. instead of 10 miles @ 9 min/mile do 13 miles @ 10 min/mile.

walshb

menoscemo wrote: »

Sorry to butt in Niamh but I just saw this now.
Yeah Walshie, I would be in the same ballpark regards pace in 5-10k races and my recovery runs the day after a race would be about 9:30/mile (although to be fair that's not a choice, it'd be all I can manage!!).
It's not uncommon to hear of the top kenyan marathon runners running 9 min/miles before and after sessions/races and that would be double their Marathon Pace.

Getting back to the OP, I definitely agree with Anna that the proposed long run pace seems way too fast, again it is at or faster than 10 mile race pace so it will effectively become a race every week. It would be much more beneficial to slow down the long run and add a few miles to it, e.g. instead of 10 miles @ 9 min/mile do 13 miles @ 10 min/mile.

Thanks for that. At least I have a time to aim for when I go out for a recovery run now.

niamh.foley

Dubgal72 wrote: »

My tuppence worth would be to keep as much running as you can on grass, or at least mix it up with grass, road/Tarmac and trail.!

I do alot of runs on a treadmill to keep the pressure off the knees as much i can

Dubgal72

niamh.foley wrote: »

I do alot of runs on a treadmill to keep the pressure off the knees as much i can

There are quite a few dreadmill threadmill :rolleyes treadmill users on this forum, mostly for convenience and last resort/atrocious weather conditions. I don't use it myself so can't really comment, but surely impact is impact is impact? Do you have an existing knee problem?
Personally I'd run in natural conditions as much as possible. Trail running is a great mobility strengthener.

niamh.foley

Dubgal72 wrote: »

There are quite a few dreadmill threadmill :rolleyes treadmill users on this forum, mostly for convenience and last resort/atrocious weather conditions. I don't use it myself so can't really comment, but surely impact is impact is impact? Do you have an existing knee problem?
Personally I'd run in natural conditions as much as possible. Trail running is a great mobility strengthener.

i dont have knee problems, i never done Trail before but might throw one session a month as a Trail..

Solobally8

niamh.foley wrote: »

i dont know how long it will take, I think ill do the Limerick & Cork Half Marathon aim for 1:20 for Limerick and aim for a 1:30 for Cork see how i get on with that. .

Super ambitious goals Niamh, fair play. I think I'm picking you up wrong though- are you hoping to run 1:20 for the half in Limerick in 6 weeks time? That would be excellent progress. But why would you want to run Cork 1:30 if you can do 1:20 in Limerick? Cork is in June yes?

niamh.foley

Looking at it when runnning 2 weeks ago, done damage to the toe, the pain is unreal when i put pressure on it so its after knocking me back some time..

Murph_D

So what's the adjusted goal now, Niamh?

niamh.foley

Murph_D wrote: »

So what's the adjusted goal now, Niamh?

the same just going to hit the Cork Half..

ended up only doing 2 runs last week Monday Recovery 4mile and Sunday 10.7mile

i might drop the pace down on the Long mile and aim to get 13miles this weekend.

Murph_D

niamh.foley wrote: »

the same just going to hit the Cork Half.

Still aiming for 1:20 there?

niamh.foley

I don't know is just over 6min miles abit to soon for a half..
I'll be doing a 11 - 12 mile on Sunday..

at 9 - 8:40 pace... once i get to about 14 miles drop back down to 10 miles and up again to 12 miles but start adding in pace..

get down to 8 min mile and work on my Tempo Sessions... if i can do the Cork in
1 hr 35 - 40

i think i be happy with that for the moment