GPS + smartphone in competition

SeanF

So, I see there's been a lot of questions on this forum about DMDs and iPhones. A lot of the threads appear to be from a few years ago (e.g. here). But I think there's been some rule changes since then.

The reason I ask now, is because I've just downloaded an excellent GPS app to my iphone - hole19. Definitely the best I've seen so far (from a Portuguese startup). Has GPS, plus a multi-player scorecard with support for stableford. It even has Spanish Point on it, which no other app I can find has. And it's free. But, from looking at the old threads on boards, I was getting the impression that I can't use an iPhone in competition. However, according to hole19 (on this blog), it appears that we can.

As far as I can tell, the answer is on this page. Or to be specific, this diagram.

So, with the Hole19 app for example:
"Multi-functional (e.g. a mobile phone); with distance measuring application installed"
Yes....it's an iPhone with the Hole19 app.

"Is the distance measuring application capable of measuring conditions or providing information other than distance (e.g. wind speed, temperature or club recommendation)?"
No...it doesn't show any of these. In fact, the app can store club distances in the "bag" section of the app, but it does not show a recommended club. I actually emailed them to see if they would add a "recommended club" feature, but now I see why they don't.

"Does the device contain other applications or features which, if used in a specific way, could assist the player in his play (e.g. camera, video camera or spirit level)?"
Yes...as long as I don't use these in the competition.

The way I read it, the iPhone is allowed.

Is this a fair interpretation?

PARlance

No, you're not reading the full rule and that blog you've included is garbage tbh.

It's quite clear from the diagram that you cannot use your iphone.

Q. What about multi-functional devices, such as a mobile phone, with a distance-measuring application?

A. On the course, subject to any club or course regulations, a multi-functional device may be used to phone, text, email or to look up general information, provided the purpose is not a breach of the Rules, e.g. you cannot make a phone call to ask for advice.

When an application that measures distance has been downloaded to the device, the application must be restricted to providing only distance information in order to conform to the Local Rule. If there are other features or applications on the phone that can specifically gauge or measure conditions that might affect the player’s play, such as an anemometer or thermometer, this would render the device non-conforming for use as a distance-measuring device, regardless of the fact that these other features or applications are used or not.

SeanF

I disagree. The more I read that flowchart, the more it appears to me that we can use iPhone GPS apps on the course.

When an application that measures distance has been downloaded to the device, the application must be restricted to providing only distance information in order to conform to the Local Rule. If there are other features or applications on the phone that can specifically gauge or measure conditions that might affect the player’s play, such as an anemometer or thermometer, this would render the device non-conforming for use as a distance-measuring device, regardless of the fact that these other features or applications are used or not.

Note the word "specifically". The iPhone doesn't have an anemometer or thermometer.

I've had a look around for a more recent explanation. This is explanation of the rule from an Australian site. Which says we can use iPhone apps. (Another here).

Looking at the diagram again:

[1] Is the distance measuring application capable of measuring conditions or providing information other than distance (e.g. wind speed, temperature or club recommendation)?

In my example (Hole19) the app doesn't give wind speed, temperature or club recommendation. It only gives distance. So No is the answer to this.

[2] Does the device contain other applications or features that, if referenced at any time during a round, might assist the player in his play (e.g. anemometer, thermometer or club recommendation)?

As I said above, the iPhone doesn't have an anemometer or thermometer, and the app doesn't give give club recommendations.

But what about the compass and the spirit level on the iphone?

Q. My smartphone has an inbuilt spirit level as part of the functionality of the phone but it is not part of the distance-measuring app. Can I use the phone as a distance-measuring device?
Yes, provided that you do not use the level in a manner that might assist you in your play.
Q. My smartphone has a compass feature. Can I use the phone as a distance-measuring device?
Yes. A compass only provided directional information and does not gauge or measure variable conditions or assist the player in his play.

[3] Does the device contain other applications or features which, if used in a specific way, could assist the player in his play (e.g. camera, video camera or spirit level)?

Yes is the answer. But, this points to:

NO BREACH OF LOCAL RULE
Provided applications or features are not used during a round in such a way that might assist the player in his play e.g. videoing swing to analyse fault or gauging green contours

And at the bottom:

General Caveat: During a round, if the internet is used to find information or measurement tools which would assist the player in his play, e.g. to gauge current wind and temperature conditions at a precise location on the course, the player would be in breach of Rule 14-3.

So, you can use iPhone GPS apps. But if you google for exact wind speed or for advice on how best to play a flop shot, you're disqualified.

SeanF

After some more searching (it's surprisingly difficult to find a clear interpretation on the web), I've found another explanation here, on the iTunes page for the fairly pricey Expert Golf app:

100% RULES COMPLIANT! The use of iPhones as distance measuring devices has been permitted in tournaments since 1.1.2014, on the condition that the golf club allows distance-measuring devices in the Local Rules. (Please note: Many GPS apps give advice on club selection and are therefore still banned. However “Expert Golf” complies with the rules as per the R&A and USGA.)

Unless this company have been lying to everyone (100,000 users apparently) and fraudulently misrepresenting their app, then it's fairly clear to me that iPhone DMD apps are okay to use.

...which means I shouldn't have bought that Bushnell 2 years ago.

Golfgraffix

Do make sure that the club have actually created a local rule, you would be surprised how many have not done it .

J

Golfgraffix

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Q. My smartphone has a compass feature. Can I use the phone as a distance-measuring device?
Yes. A compass only provided directional information and does not gauge or measure variable conditions or assist the player in his play.

So.

This is not nesecarily true, the default compass on iOS devices does give you slope and inclination. As this app cannot be deleted it is there and according to the wording whether or not you use it is irrelevant.



The wording in the rule is creating a very grey area.

J

SeanF

Golfgraffix wrote: »

So.

This is not nesecarily true, the default compass on iOS devices does give you slope and inclination. As this app cannot be deleted it is there and according to the wording whether or not you use it is irrelevant.



The wording in the rule is creating a very grey area.

J

Hold on, the readings in that image comes from the spirit level (via the accelerometer) in the iphone, which is covered by the other quote:

Q. My smartphone has an inbuilt spirit level as part of the functionality of the phone but it is not part of the distance-measuring app. Can I use the phone as a distance-measuring device?
Yes, provided that you do not use the level in a manner that might assist you in your play.

Keano

Wouldn't trust any blog written by app developers tbh.

This is what you need to read here

Golfgraffix

From RANDA

If there are other features or applications on the phone that can specifically gauge or measure conditions that might affect the player’s play, such as an anemometer or thermometer, this would render the device non-conforming for use as a distance-measuring device, regardless of the fact that these other features or applications are used or not.

PARlance

See the note on the flowchart.
It's a breach even if the phone has such applications.

The Q&A's do nothing to clarify but that note holds the key.

We'll know when they're legal. Garmins share price will fall and Hole19 will no longer be free

Golfgraffix

I should add that I am the CEO of two companies that produce apps for golfers and believe you me there are very few people out there who would like to see more clarity on this but right now the rule is not clear enough.

In my home club we do not allow them ( I am on the committee and voted in favour of the ban)

J

SeanF

Keano wrote: »

Wouldn't trust any blog written by app developers tbh.

This is what you need to read here

...which is what I've been quoting in the above posts.

SeanF

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I should add that I am the CEO of two companies that produce apps for golfers and believe you me there are very few people out there who would like to see more clarity on this but right now the rule is not clear enough.

In my home club we do not allow them ( I am on the committee and voted in favour of the ban)

J

Which is fair enough, but as far as I can tell, if a club allows GPS devices (which is quite a lot), then iPhones are okay (unless the club specifically bans iPhones).

SeanF

Golfgraffix wrote: »

From RANDA

If there are other features or applications on the phone that can specifically gauge or measure conditions that might affect the player’s play, such as an anemometer or thermometer, this would render the device non-conforming for use as a distance-measuring device, regardless of the fact that these other features or applications are used or not.

I think you're misinterpreting that. The iPhone doesn't have an anemometer or a thermometer. Plus it states referring to apps that can "specifically gauge or measure conditions that might affect the player’s play" which is different from looking up a weather forecasting site to get wind direction.

The final quote is the key:

NO BREACH OF LOCAL RULE
Provided applications or features are not used during a round in such a way that might assist the player in his play e.g. videoing swing to analyse fault or gauging green contours

Golfgraffix

SeanF wrote: »

Which is fair enough, but as far as I can tell, if a club allows GPS devices (which is quite a lot), then iPhones are okay (unless the club specifically bans iPhones).

Not sure what part of the RANDA quote leaves the door open to allowing the iPhone to be used as a DMD.

The compass gives slope, it can't be deleted so therefore according to the wording it can't be used legally.

It is the players responsibility to follow the rules, the club can allow smartphones as long as they are conforming and the iPhone isn't.

J

SeanF

PARlance wrote: »

See the note on the flowchart.
It's a breach even if the phone has such applications.

The Q&A's do nothing to clarify but that note holds the key.

We'll know when they're legal. Garmins share price will fall and Hole19 will no longer be free

NOTE: Even if the additional information is not used or is disabled / switched off

I agree this note is misleading, but taken as a whole, the flowchart (imho) states that iPhones are legal.

Take a look at the top box:

Multi-functional (e.g. a mobile phone); with distance measuring application installed.

This, written in 2014, is quite obviously referring to a smartphone such as an Android or iPhone. What else would it be referring to, unless everyone in the R&A owns old Nokias that just happen to have GPS installed? I don't think so. It then follows on with 3 questions that, to me, allow a smartphone/mobile phone/multi function device as long as you don't use the compass, the spirit level or the internet to assist you (unless you're checking a ruling).

Golfgraffix

SeanF wrote: »

I think you're misinterpreting that. The iPhone doesn't have an anemometer or a thermometer. Plus it states referring to apps that can "specifically gauge or measure conditions that might affect the player’s play" which is different from looking up a weather forecasting site to get wind direction.

The final quote is the key:

When they mention anemometer and thermometer they say "such as" rather than those two applications exclusively.

The main problem is in the wording, in the body it is clear that the slope indicator deems it illegal but in their quotes section they say as long as it is not used.

I some times think they have done this deliberately so as not to really make a decision. There is quite a large lobby against phones on the course let alone used as part of play.

If they want to engage younger golfers they will have to address this and properly.

J

SeanF

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Not sure what part of the RANDA quote leaves the door open to allowing the iPhone to be used as a DMD.

Pretty much the flowchart, but also the Q&A, especially this part:

Q. If a player uses his smartphone to look up a weather forecast, is the player gauging the conditions?
No. Accessing weather reports provided by a weather station through an app or internet browser, is not considered to be actively measuring or gauging the conditions and is permissible.
Q. My smartphone has an inbuilt spirit level as part of the functionality of the phone but it is not part of the distance-measuring app. Can I use the phone as a distance-measuring device?
Yes, provided that you do not use the level in a manner that might assist you in your play.
Q. My smartphone has a compass feature. Can I use the phone as a distance-measuring device?
Yes. A compass only provided directional information and does not gauge or measure variable conditions or assist the player in his play.

The compass gives slope, it can't be deleted so therefore according to the wording it can't be used legally.

The iPhone's compass does not give slope. The accelerometer does. The app simply combines them into one screen.

SeanF

Golfgraffix wrote: »

When they mention anemometer and thermometer they say "such as" rather than those two applications exclusively.

The main problem is in the wording, in the body it is clear that the slope indicator deems it illegal but in their quotes section they say as long as it is not used.

I some times think they have done this deliberately so as not to really make a decision. There is quite a large lobby against phones on the course let alone used as part of play.

If they want to engage younger golfers they will have to address this and properly.

J

I totally agree. In fact, even though I'm pretty convinced that the R&A's page does allow iPhone apps, I'd be very wary of pulling one out in a competition...unless iPhones are specifically stated as being legal in the local rules. After this thread, I don't think I'd be too bothered to have this same debate on the course. I'll debate it in the clubhouse all day long however.

Dtoffee

I have a Sony Xperia Z1 and theres no compass or accelerator on it, but I have just downloaded the Hole 19 app to have a look at it and I would assume it meets the criteria as set out by RANDA.

I thing is, the genie is long out of the bottle with mobile phones and they are never going to switched off for golf .... they have become an extension of peoples hands nowadays.

Tbh I doubt if it makes that much difference to the majority of golfers out there as they could have Butch Harmon walking alongside them issuing instructions and still not be able to execute the perfect shot. ;-)

spacecoyote

SeanF wrote: »

After some more searching (it's surprisingly difficult to find a clear interpretation on the web), I've found another explanation here, on the iTunes page for the fairly pricey Expert Golf app:
Unless this company have been lying to everyone (100,000 users apparently) and fraudulently misrepresenting their app, then it's fairly clear to me that iPhone DMD apps are okay to use.

...which means I shouldn't have bought that Bushnell 2 years ago.

a lot of splitting hairs & picking of words on here to suit an argument, the bigger question really being...

Why do you need to get into this messy grey area if you own a Bushnell already?

SeanF

spacecoyote wrote: »

a lot of splitting hairs & picking of words on here to suit an argument, the bigger question really being...

Why do you need to get into this messy grey area if you own a Bushnell already?

Good question. I like the Bushnell rangefinder, but sometimes it's very difficult for the laser to lock onto the flag. Especially if there's no wind. I'd honestly prefer to use a map-based GPS system, especially in a course I haven't played before.

cairny

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2014/01/amendments-to-decisions-on-rules.html

Looks pretty clear that they're ok now, news to me.

(Barry Rhodes blog is incredible on rules questions).