Re-planting a Forrest that has been cut down.

Big Davey

I am looking for land for forestry and have come across several plots that were forests and were cut down going VERY cheap.
It has made me wonder if forestry is really a good investment as the land I am looking at is €1500 per acre for a cut down forest.
I had thought about buying land at €6000 per acre just ordinary land to plant in forestry
IF
I had bought the land for €6000 per acre and planted it when I would harvest the trees if the land was only then worth today's equivalent of €1500 after harvest it would make the whole idea worthless and I would loose not make money !
Any ideas ?

fergus1001

Big Davey wrote: »

I am looking for land for forestry and have come across several plots that were forests and were cut down going VERY cheap.
It has made me wonder if forestry is really a good investment as the land I am looking at is €1500 per acre for a cut down forest.
I had thought about buying land at €6000 per acre just ordinary land to plant in forestry
IF
I had bought the land for €6000 per acre and planted it when I would harvest the trees if the land was only then worth today's equivalent of €1500 after harvest it would make the whole idea worthless and I would loose not make money !
Any ideas ?

Give us more details where is this land and how much is in it

About a grand a hectare to replant maby more if it's not windrowed but you will not receive a grant !

Big Davey

fergus1001 wrote: »

Give us more details where is this land and how much is in it

About a grand a hectare to replant maby more if it's not windrowed but you will not receive a grant !

It's in Cavan and about 20 acres.
Don't know any more about it except if there is no grant it seems pretty useless.

Nekarsulm

Without the tax free grant, there would probably have been no private planting in this country. And once land is planted once, it will remain in forestry for ever. The grant is just an incentive to to get the national forest acreage up nearer European average. Anyway, in a real world private forestry scenario, you plant for your children's and grandchildren' s benefit.

Big Davey

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Without the tax free grant, there would probably have been no private planting in this country. And once land is planted once, it will remain in forestry for ever. The grant is just an incentive to to get the national forest acreage up nearer European average. Anyway, in a real world private forestry scenario, you plant for your children's and grandchildren' s benefit.

I can imagine maybe a hundred acres being worth it but without the grant I am wondering would 20 acres be worth it.

Nekarsulm

Big Davey wrote: »

I can imagine maybe a hundred acres being worth it but without the grant I am wondering would 20 acres be worth it.

In reality buying land at 6000 per acre is madness.the forestry companies usually aim to pay less than 3000 acre, and as you say, the real price should be less than 2000. Most private planting takes place on land already owned and of lower quality. If you have twenty acres of land that needs continual investment and giving a low agricultural return, then the grant looks attractive.

blue5000

If you buy it now, do you have to put forestry back into it again? As already said above the reason it's so cheap is because the person who clear felled it has no choice but to re-plant it without a grant.

fergus1001

blue5000 wrote: »

If you buy it now, do you have to put forestry back into it again? As already said above the reason it's so cheap is because the person who clear felled it has no choice but to re-plant it without a grant.

That's exactly it they or who ever buys that land HAS TO replant it with a viable forest crop

accidental forester

The seller should have replanted using the profit from the clearfell. There are a lot parcels out there in the same situation as you mention. The current grants for 10% diverse are 3150 euro per hectare. First you wouldn't qualify for a grant to replant and, second, most of the plantation companies only do it for that price to catch the gov. money. Private planting will likely cost more. You would want to subtract at least 1275 euro per acre just to cover above cost. Depending on the condition it was left in, the plot may have to be cleaned up. There are biofuel companies that will come in and collect the rubbish if it's still viable for their purposes. Otherwise, that's a further expense. If it's only average quality land, it wouldn't be out of the question to offer less than a 1000 per acre (more like 500) considering the costs you are going incur. Keep in mind the first income you'll see will be a pittance from thinnings in 12 to 15 years. There'll be no significant income for nearly 30 years.

You'd be better off watching out for semi-mature plots coming on the market. There are owners that want to get rid of plantations when the premiums run out at 20 years. Unwilling to sit on it for a further 15 to 20 years for the clearfell they just want out. These are usually neglected plots needing a good bit of work but are ready to start a healthy stream of thinnings which are useful if not potentially profitable. Prices from 2500 to 4500 per acre are common.

SILVAMAN

I've heard talk about a push to partially grant aid replants after clearfelling-whether it's something that would ever come to pass in these straightened times I doubt.
What might factor is the future cost to the economy of NOT getting a refor up to standard as is happening. Maybe something like covering the cost of dipped trees could be a runner.

NancyG

Who says you have to replant? What are the penalties for not replanting? Would it be worthwhile (if the land was fairly good) just to turn it back into grazing and suffer the consequences (assuming the consequences are 'only' financial)........are there legal implications to not replanting? Does anyone know if the government are being approached to somehow finance replanting?

Nekarsulm

NancyG wrote: »

Who says you have to replant? What are the penalties for not replanting? Would it be worthwhile (if the land was fairly good) just to turn it back into grazing and suffer the consequences (assuming the consequences are 'only' financial)........are there legal implications to not replanting? Does anyone know if the government are being approached to somehow finance replanting?

Probably cheaper to buy land than dig out the stumps and dispose of them, and try and reinstate the soil structure. Massive amounts of lime needed to combat the acidity as well.

fergus1001

NancyG wrote: »

Who says you have to replant? What are the penalties for not replanting? Would it be worthwhile (if the land was fairly good) just to turn it back into grazing and suffer the consequences (assuming the consequences are 'only' financial)........are there legal implications to not replanting? Does anyone know if the government are being approached to somehow finance replanting?

You can get into trouble with the forest service for one and you would have to pay back the 20 year premium (if it got the grant)

Cork boy 55

Question
RE: Clear felled plantations
Is there a reason why coillte would not replant a clear felled plantation ASAP.
Just noticed in the Coillte forests near me, there are cleared felled sites of various timescales and still not replanted Some of them cut down recently but some are over 3 years
It is just management and manpower issues or is there a technical reason for delay.

blue5000

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I've heard talk about a push to partially grant aid replants after clearfelling-whether it's something that would ever come to pass in these straightened times I doubt.
What might factor is the future cost to the economy of NOT getting a refor up to standard as is happening. Maybe something like covering the cost of dipped trees could be a runner.

Maybe coillte know something the rest of us don't know yet;)

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Question
RE: Clear felled plantations
Is there a reason why coillte would not replant a clear felled plantation ASAP.
Just noticed in the Coillte forests near me, there are cleared felled sites of various timescales and still not replanted Some of them cut down recently but some are over 3 years
It is just management and manpower issues or is there a technical reason for delay.

SILVAMAN

Nekarsulm wrote: »

. Massive amounts of lime needed to combat the acidity as well.

Bull****

Cork boy 55

blue5000 wrote: »

Maybe coillte know something the rest of us don't know yet;)

Interesting lol grant shenanigans ;-)

/

Let me put it another way,
If I clearfell a plantation pine tomorrow can I replant straight away or do I have to do something with stumps and roots of old plantation or wait a period?

Townie

Reindeer

I do all the felling on our estate, and have the local mill send a lorrie with forewarder, and it is barely worth it for the effort vs firewood. So, we usually only do the blow downs. And this is in a mature forestry with logs in the 13'+ range at 18-20" width minimum. With a middle man like coillte', forestry isn't really an investment. You do it to have a forestry more than to have money.

tony007

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Bull****

Could you elaborate? Have you seen forestry land being reversed?

SILVAMAN

tony007 wrote: »

Could you elaborate? Have you seen forestry land being reversed?

Massive amounts of lime to reverse the acidity.....what on earth does that actually mean?

Nekarsulm

Well Silvaman, would you accept that the soil in a typical Sitka forest is acidic?
Around the 4.5 to 5 ph value?
Giving that a ph of 6.5 is considered optimal for productive grass production, that means that the soil in the average Sitka plantation is between 75 and 100 times more acidic than is considered ideal for grass growth.

Now I accept that heavy rain after de-forestation will leach acidity into the water courses, but I still contend that you will need to apply a lot of lime over a number of years to reverse this acidity and grow a grass crop again.

SILVAMAN

Generalisation.
Soil acidity is affected by the buffering capacity of the soil. Add to that the inputs of Na+, Ca++,Mg++,K+ from the atmosphere, esp since we are an island. Some inherently acid soils post SS removal may be acidic, and require liming, but as all soils tend towards acidity, why are we not liming all soils all the time?
Your argument is too sweeping.

Nekarsulm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Generalisation.
Soil acidity is affected by the buffering capacity of the soil. Add to that the inputs of Na+, Ca++,Mg++,K+ from the atmosphere, esp since we are an island. Some inherently acid soils post SS removal may be acidic, and require liming, but as all soils tend towards acidity, why are we not liming all soils all the time?
Your argument is too sweeping.

We are.
Or at least we should be.
In the counties around me, all land need liming. Its just they don't get it when they should.
But that's another generalisation ........

ganmo

its not that soils tend to acidity its that the action of plant growth(and decay) drives soils to acidity

there are soils that there is zero point in putting lime on due to their buffering capacity, mainly peat/bog type soils

SILVAMAN

ganmo wrote: »

its not that soils tend to acidity its that the action of plant growth(and decay) drives soils to acidity

sorry about not being clear-I meant that as a rule in Ireland all soils will naturally tend by weathering to be pushed towards acidity over time-however the underlying parent material that forms the soil can counteract this, as can plants.