airline pilot-put down the dream?

TheBoss11

Hi guys, I'm just looking for some advice as I'm in very complicated situation and really need advice. I'm 19 currently doing a degree in accounting and finance, I done my leaving cert last year and didn't do as good as I'm capable of (280 points, capable of about 350) I wouldn't been the greatest academicly and never done any subjects the average pilot would (honours maths, Physics, applied maths ect) but that's down to my school not offering these as LC subjects.

I've always wanted to be a pilot for as long as I can remember. I have a job where I save every single penny I earn for my pilot training (120k) and hope to have this money in the next 4 years. Recently I've been considering giving up hope, the lack of jobs and opportunities for recent graduate pilots is frightening and definitely turns me off doing it. When I think about going through life without making an attempt to be a pilot it really saddens me, I never had a great up-bringing and my dream of being a pilot is all that kept me going really. Also the thought of when I'm 70-80 and thinking back to my life and it not at least chasing my dream upsets me. But then on the other hand I don't want to be in a situation where I'm in 60k debt and never having a pilot job.

So basicly I'm just looking for advice on what to do. I'm At the stage of my life where I need clarity. I've no idea what to do and need honest advice.

Cheers guys and sorry for the big essay. All advice is greatly appreciated.

pepe the prawn

TheBoss11 wrote: »

Hi guys, I'm just looking for some advice as I'm in very complicated situation and really need advice. I'm 19 currently doing a degree in accounting and finance, I done my leaving cert last year and didn't do as good as I'm capable of (280 points, capable of about 350) I wouldn't been the greatest academicly and never done any subjects the average pilot would (honours maths, Physics, applied maths ect) but that's down to my school not offering these as LC subjects.

I've always wanted to be a pilot for as long as I can remember. I have a job where I save every single penny I earn for my pilot training (120k) and hope to have this money in the next 4 years. Recently I've been considering giving up hope, the lack of jobs and opportunities for recent graduate pilots is frightening and definitely turns me off doing it. When I think about going through life without making an attempt to be a pilot it really saddens me, I never had a great up-bringing and my dream of being a pilot is all that kept me going really. Also the thought of when I'm 70-80 and thinking back to my life and it not at least chasing my dream upsets me. But then on the other hand I don't want to be in a situation where I'm in 60k debt and never having a pilot job.

So basicly I'm just looking for advice on what to do. I'm At the stage of my life where I need clarity. I've no idea what to do and need honest advice.

Cheers guys and sorry for the big essay. All advice is greatly appreciated.

It's a million dollar question. Plenty guys out there who took the leap and unfortunately 5 & 6 years later they still have no job, but conversely some of them do get jobs and I'm sure they will tell you that they don't regret it. I'm doing modular training at the moment and really don't know if I'll go all the way to MEIR with it, the cost versus jobs prospect is shockingly poor, but I'd rather have done it and got no job than not having tried it at all, an expensive gamble yes but one I'm prepared to continue with for the time being.

My advice would be to get your PPL and then re-evaluate your situation and the situation of the aviation market. It'll buy you another year and you'll still be progressing in the mean time. Plus, you've age on your side which is a major plus. Also, finish your degree, there will always be jobs to fall back on in finance, and will be well paid which will provide you with the means to fly even if only for fun.

TheBoss11

pepe the prawn wrote: »

It's a million dollar question. Plenty guys out there who took the leap and unfortunately 5 & 6 years later they still have no job, but conversely some of them do get jobs and I'm sure they will tell you that they don't regret it. I'm doing modular training at the moment and really don't know if I'll go all the way to MEIR with it, the cost versus jobs prospect is shockingly poor, but I'd rather have done it and got no job than not having tried it at all, an expensive gamble yes but one I'm prepared to continue with for the time being.

My advice would be to get your PPL and then re-evaluate your situation and the situation of the aviation market. It'll buy you another year and you'll still be progressing in the mean time. Plus, you've age on your side which is a major plus. Also, finish your degree, there will always be jobs to fall back on in finance, and will be well paid which will provide you with the means to fly even if only for fun.

I've been debating for a long time wheather or not to do the PPL. I'm in a fortunate enough situation where I have the financial resources to do it but if I do that will be all my savings gone. That means saving another 1-2 years just to get back to the position I'm in now. my preference would be to go integrated from a reputable school, literally anything to increase the odds of a job. As you said though I really don't want to regret not doing it when I'm older. It's a huge gamble.

cppilot98

First off forget your Leaving Cert and the number of points you got or didn't get and what subjects you did or didn't do. I know there is great emphasis on the Leaving in terms of getting the points and going to college. But believe me when you submit your application to some airline in the future they won't even look at them. All they'll be interested in is your college degree but more importantly your pilot qualifications. When you sit facing the interview panel they won't even mention whether or not you did physics. They'll be far more interested in your technical knowledge and experience in aviation. The reality is that the pilot exams aren't the most difficult. Nearly anyone can pass them. Remember they are vocational exams, there to impart knowledge not actual tests of ability.

You want clarity at this stage of your life? At 19? Good luck with that. Wouldn't we all like some clarity in our lives. You certainly won't find it here.

19 is too early to be panicking about whether or not you make it as a pilot. I was middle aged when I finally got a paid pilot job. Yet I read all over PPRuNe and elsewhere that it would be impossible. Yet I know of two guys recently who are in their late thirties, early forties who got into Stobart. Both of them highly successful in their own professions but who decided they wanted to be airline pilots at least for a time. I also hear about the lack of jobs and opportunities for graduate pilots. But meanwhile in the last couple of years four pilots friends of mine got flying jobs. One ended up in Flybe, another in Air Asia, yes that Air Asia, Stobart and another island hopping in the UK. Then of course there's all the Ryanair people I know all of whom found the money and put up with the BS.

None of them were put off. They simply got on with it. They compromised and they worked hard and they made it. On the way they were happy to do GA jobs, survey flying, para dropping etc and becoming Instructors. They didn't give up.

One other thing, all of them were good pilots, some very good plus without exception they all met that hard to define typical pilot personality. Self confident, type A personalities and good company.

Another thing they have in common is none were snobbish about General Aviation. Flying is flying. If you want to be a pilot you have to like flying. If you don't like flying in single engine puddle jumper you won't like flying at all.

You want honest advice so here it is. It'll cost you more in money than you expect. It will cost you more in angst than you expect. It will take longer than you want. You will be frustrated many times before you get the first job. Even when you finally get a paid flying job you'll sometimes wonder if it was all worth it. Many pilots come to hate their job but have nowhere else to go.

You may never become a professional pilot no matter how hard you work, no matter how dedicated you are or how enthusiastic you are. You may never get the breaks or may simply never be good enough. In that you take the same chances as everyone else taking this particular road.

But I think you've already answered you own question. You won't have to wait until you're 70 or 80 to regret not trying for it. That'll come sooner than you think. Once you commit yourself to the normal aspects of life, career, family, marriage etc. You won't be able to chase the dream anymore. I meet people like that all the time. They always have an excuse for not going for it. Usually money or too difficult. I've no sympathy with that attitude. Most pilots don't have the money but they find it. You have to make sacrifices to be a pilot and to stay a pilot the sacrifices never stop unless you are very lucky.

There is no hurry, you're 19 not 39. Just try and progress each year. Most pilots I know who didn't have the money or a cadetship got the job when they were in their late twenties and thirties or older. At 19, waiting six, eight or ten years seems like a lifetime. But in the scheme of things that's nothing.

Put some of that money your savings into a PPL and don't be in such a hurry. Finish your degree and get a well paid financial job while tipping away at the flying. Join a flying club and have fun with it. Flying is fun or it's supposed to be.

By all means take time out to consider your position, one year, two years. Stop putting pressure on yourself and lose the notion that it's dream like one of those saps you see on X factor and other stupid so called reality programes. It's not a dream it's a career, a job, no more no less. Treat it like any other career decision like becoming an accountant.

That's my two cents.

cppilot98

Oh and none of them did an integrated course. Some did it full time some in modules. Most of them paid for it with the money they made from working in good jobs and occasionally redundancies. So do your PPL. Once you're actually flying your perspective changes and you begin to meet other pilots and make friends and future contacts.

Integrated courses are great but not the great advantage they're made out to be.

pepe the prawn

Well said ^^^^^

Two points: to echo what you said about pprune, amongst some sound info, that site is littered with waffle and bullsh****rs who spout on about loads but in actual fact are wrong in a lot of what they say, it's all moaning moaning moaning.

Also, ryanair is not much of a viable option for irish pilots what with their apparent blockade of any cadet pikot possessing an irish passport. So in any future planning for a low hours pilot position, I think it would be wise to almost disregard any job prospects in ryanair until their recruitment policies change.

TheBoss11

cppilot98 wrote: »

First off forget your Leaving Cert and the number of points you got or didn't get and what subjects you did or didn't do. I know there is great emphasis on the Leaving in terms of getting the points and going to college. But believe me when you submit your application to some airline in the future they won't even look at them. All they'll be interested in is your college degree but more importantly your pilot qualifications. When you sit facing the interview panel they won't even mention whether or not you did physics. They'll be far more interested in your technical knowledge and experience in aviation. The reality is that the pilot exams aren't the most difficult. Nearly anyone can pass them. Remember they are vocational exams, there to impart knowledge not actual tests of ability.

You want clarity at this stage of your life? At 19? Good luck with that. Wouldn't we all like some clarity in our lives. You certainly won't find it here.

19 is too early to be panicking about whether or not you make it as a pilot. I was middle aged when I finally got a paid pilot job. Yet I read all over PPRuNe and elsewhere that it would be impossible. Yet I know of two guys recently who are in their late thirties, early forties who got into Stobart. Both of them highly successful in their own professions but who decided they wanted to be airline pilots at least for a time. I also hear about the lack of jobs and opportunities for graduate pilots. But meanwhile in the last couple of years four pilots friends of mine got flying jobs. One ended up in Flybe, another in Air Asia, yes that Air Asia, Stobart and another island hopping in the UK. Then of course there's all the Ryanair people I know all of whom found the money and put up with the BS.

None of them were put off. They simply got on with it. They compromised and they worked hard and they made it. On the way they were happy to do GA jobs, survey flying, para dropping etc and becoming Instructors. They didn't give up.

One other thing, all of them were good pilots, some very good plus without exception they all met that hard to define typical pilot personality. Self confident, type A personalities and good company.

Another thing they have in common is none were snobbish about General Aviation. Flying is flying. If you want to be a pilot you have to like flying. If you don't like flying in single engine puddle jumper you won't like flying at all.

You want honest advice so here it is. It'll cost you more in money than you expect. It will cost you more in angst than you expect. It will take longer than you want. You will be frustrated many times before you get the first job. Even when you finally get a paid flying job you'll sometimes wonder if it was all worth it. Many pilots come to hate their job but have nowhere else to go.

You may never become a professional pilot no matter how hard you work, no matter how dedicated you are or how enthusiastic you are. You may never get the breaks or may simply never be good enough. In that you take the same chances as everyone else taking this particular road.

But I think you've already answered you own question. You won't have to wait until you're 70 or 80 to regret not trying for it. That'll come sooner than you think. Once you commit yourself to the normal aspects of life, career, family, marriage etc. You won't be able to chase the dream anymore. I meet people like that all the time. They always have an excuse for not going for it. Usually money or too difficult. I've no sympathy with that attitude. Most pilots don't have the money but they find it. You have to make sacrifices to be a pilot and to stay a pilot the sacrifices never stop unless you are very lucky.

There is no hurry, you're 19 not 39. Just try and progress each year. Most pilots I know who didn't have the money or a cadetship got the job when they were in their late twenties and thirties or older. At 19, waiting six, eight or ten years seems like a lifetime. But in the scheme of things that's nothing.

Put some of that money your savings into a PPL and don't be in such a hurry. Finish your degree and get a well paid financial job while tipping away at the flying. Join a flying club and have fun with it. Flying is fun or it's supposed to be.

By all means take time out to consider your position, one year, two years. Stop putting pressure on yourself and lose the notion that it's dream like one of those saps you see on X factor and other stupid so called reality programes. It's not a dream it's a career, a job, no more no less. Treat it like any other career decision like becoming an accountant.

That's my two cents.

Exactly the type of response I was looking for! It's not so much I want clarity it's just I feel like I need to be taking actions now if I want to pursue this career. I'd not no problem flying turbo props in africa for the rest of my life, it's not about what airline ill work for its about will I work for any! Instructing is something I wouldn't mind but long term no way.

My LC wasn't bad it just wasn't exceptional, I didn't fail anything. Just the subject choice worried me a bit. The selection process is so intense anything can decide whether you get a job or not.

Regarding modular or integrated, with tons of research It seems like integrated is preferred but modular isn't a bad thing. I've met modular pilots. id prefer integrated simply because I need as much as possible in my favour for landing the first job.


So you'd recommend I get my PPL done first? I suppose getting the ppl done any e joyous flying for a few years would be beneficial. I've already a handful of hours clocked in a cessna

TheBoss11

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Well said ^^^^^

Two points: to echo what you said about pprune, amongst some sound info, that site is littered with waffle and bullsh****rs who spout on about loads but in actual fact are wrong in a lot of what they say, it's all moaning moaning moaning.

Also, ryanair is not much of a viable option for irish pilots what with their apparent blockade of any cadet pikot possessing an irish passport. So in any future planning for a low hours pilot position, I think it would be wise to almost disregard any job prospects in ryanair until their recruitment policies change.

What airlines are the likely ones then? Are there job website for low hour pilots you might know of?

Topper Harley

TheBoss11 wrote: »

I've been debating for a long time wheather or not to do the PPL. I'm in a fortunate enough situation where I have the financial resources to do it but if I do that will be all my savings gone. That means saving another 1-2 years just to get back to the position I'm in now. my preference would be to go integrated from a reputable school, literally anything to increase the odds of a job. As you said though I really don't want to regret not doing it when I'm older. It's a huge gamble.

I'd echo the others here and say that if you can afford to get a PPL now and only take 1-2 years to save that money again, it sounds to me like an extremely appealing option. 1-2 years is really not that long, especially at your age.

Building up to a frozen ATPL licence modularly can work out much cheaper and frees you up from committing to the full €120K in case you change your mind at some point down the road. And even if you do decide to give up on a career flying, you'll still have your PPL. You can still have a successful career in finance or elsewhere and fly as a hobby. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, there's a huge middle ground.

Also, keep an eye out for cadetships with the likes of Aer Lingus or if you were so inclined, the Air Corps. The educational requirements for these are usually simple enough, such as pass maths and a third language in the LC. Cadetships are usually hugely competitive, but if it's your dream, they are at least another option to try.

With the Aer Lingus cadetship, as far as I'm aware, you pay half the cost of your training up front and the other half is taken from your pay in the future. I'm open to correction on that though.

In an Air Corps cadetship, all training is in house so there's no cost to trainee, however, a career as a military pilot is very different from one as an airline pilot and so would need to be considered accordingly.

Good luck.

pepe the prawn

TheBoss11 wrote: »

What airlines are the likely ones then? Are there job website for low hour pilots you might know of?

For low hours pilots? If I Knew the answer to that i'd be a very wealthy man. Maybe Stobart but you will need to have done the ATR type rating and sit in the hiring pool for up to a year or two, after that it's very sparse. Even looking to africa you'd probably want 500 hours plus before your be considered employable. BA are doing a future pilot programme at the moment, have a look at that too. Remember ther are some fATPL's out there with 200-300 hours and some with up to 1000hours (instructing etc) who still can't get work. It's a tight market, training organisations etc say it's a growing market and that there's going to be a huge demand for pilots in the next few years, only time will tell.

As was mentioned, consider doing your ppl, you will make valuable contacts at a flying club or training school. What part of the country are you in?

endacl

Hey OP. A lad who grew up two doors down from me was in your position exactly. He actually spent about ten years as an accountant after college. Now flying for Aer Lingus. You'll get there.

Tenger

Topper Harley wrote: »

I'd echo the others here and say that if you can afford to get a PPL now and only take 1-2 years to save that money again, it sounds to me like an extremely appealing option. 1-2 years is really not that long, especially at your age.
.....
Good luck.

I can't refute any of the advice above. It is all spot on.
But this stands out for me. It may seem like a huge thing but at the age of 19 you have the advantage of time. The 2 year hiatus mentioned above is not as much as you think it is.

Irish Steve

Before you even think of going for a flight, the most important thing to do it make sure that you can get a Class 1 medical, as without it, you won't be doing anything commercial. The standard for a Class 1 is high, and there can be issues that you have never even considered, so get that hurdle out of the way before you spend any other money.

I spent a lot of time and money getting to the point where I could have flown commercially, and at just the wrong time for me, the Gulf War happened, and totally killed all airline flight deck recruitment, and by the time it recovered, I was getting to be too old for an airline entrant, but I don't regret the time and money spent, I did a lot of single pilot multi engine flying building the hours, (instead of using scheduled flights) and as well as being part of the plan, it was FUN!

I subsequently also got to be involved with a lot of work on PC based simulators, which I hadn't expected to do, and the licence was a fundamental part of being able to do that work, as it provided the background and skills that allowed me to make sure that the end product we produced was a valid contribution to the projects I was involved with.

Only you can make the decision about going for it, by the sound of it, the dream is real, and if you don't give it a go, you will never know what might have been possible.

Hope that helps

TheBoss11

Hey guys thanks for all the reply I really appreciate it. I applied for the last Aer Lingus cadet programme but didn't get it. The BA programme requires 5 leaving cert Bs so that's out of the question, I genuinely think self funding is my best bet to make it.

I'm totally confidant in passing a class 1 medical I'm very healthy. Again in regards to the PPL do you recommend do it in a club or a flights school? After all this is my foundation of flying so I'd like it to be a high standard of training.

endacl

TheBoss11 wrote: »

Hey guys thanks for all the reply I really appreciate it. I applied for the last Aer Lingus cadet programme but didn't get it. The BA programme requires 5 leaving cert Bs so that's out of the question, I genuinely think self funding is my best bet to make it.

I'm totally confidant in passing a class 1 medical I'm very healthy. Again in regards to the PPL do you recommend do it in a club or a flights school? After all this is my foundation of flying so I'd like it to be a high standard of training.

The lad I mentioned applied for the cadet programme too. Didn't get it.

TheBoss11

endacl wrote: »

The lad I mentioned applied for the cadet programme too. Didn't get it.

do you know where he went to flight school? Modular or integrated?

endacl

No idea. I'll ask when I see him again. Might take a while, but I will update.

TheBoss11

endacl wrote: »

No idea. I'll ask when I see him again. Might take a while, but I will update.

Thank you very much!

smurfjed

Please remember that none of us can read the future, it will take you 4 years to train, if in that time we encounter GW3 over ME oil, then you will find yourself in the same situation that Irish Steve and I found ourselves.... No jobs for love nor money.
Lots of schools talk about the huge need for pilots, but they forget to add that the need is for EXPERIENCED PILOTS.

Xpro

Just take your time and plod along slowly. At your age you'll have plenty of time to do things over and over again and eventually make your dream come true if your try hard.

I was in your boat too, and still am. Doing my modular for a few years now, spending every penny I have and not sure if I'll ever see the light, but hey at least I tried it and it was a hell of a good experience. ( Costly tho:D)

Calina

OP,

other people can advise you more practically on the specifics of becoming a pilot and where anyone identifies different routes to doing so, I would look at them.

We don't serve our young people very well in this country sometimes by implying that choices and decisions made at 17/18 might mark you for life completely. They are experiences, and they feed into decisions and choices later. What you're doing now opens doors which may help your life later. One thing you could do is set the choice a side for a couple of years and priorities something else that would enable you to fund a dream a little later. A dream isn't less of a dream because you take a longer road to follow it and what you learn on the road is very often of benefit.

You're young. You're less than half my age and while you probably don't want to hear this right now, the truth is life has an odd enough way of turning out and turning back on itself.

I'm a great fan, when decisions need to be made, of making the ones that are likely to open the biggest number of doors.

TheBoss11 wrote: »

.... I wouldn't been the greatest academicly and never done any subjects the average pilot would (honours maths, Physics, applied maths ect) but that's down to my school not offering these as LC subjects.

I really wanted to highlight this because while the applied maths side of things does not totally surprise me, I am horrified that there are schools in this country still not making higher level maths and physics available. In this day and age, that really, really should not be happening. Arghh.

TheBoss11

Calina wrote: »

OP,

other people can advise you more practically on the specifics of becoming a pilot and where anyone identifies different routes to doing so, I would look at them.

We don't serve our young people very well in this country sometimes by implying that choices and decisions made at 17/18 might mark you for life completely. They are experiences, and they feed into decisions and choices later. What you're doing now opens doors which may help your life later. One thing you could do is set the choice a side for a couple of years and priorities something else that would enable you to fund a dream a little later. A dream isn't less of a dream because you take a longer road to follow it and what you learn on the road is very often of benefit.

You're young. You're less than half my age and while you probably don't want to hear this right now, the truth is life has an odd enough way of turning out and turning back on itself.

I'm a great fan, when decisions need to be made, of making the ones that are likely to open the biggest number of doors.



I really wanted to highlight this because while the applied maths side of things does not totally surprise me, I am horrified that there are schools in this country still not making higher level maths and physics available. In this day and age, that really, really should not be happening. Arghh.

That's the thing I'd literally do anything to be a pilot, I'd devote my life to becoming one. I'd rather be a pilot then get married and have children it's just something I really want that bad. But to make this dream A reality I need to act now for 5-6 years, 100k for someone in my position is a life changing amount of money and for me to save this will take years of dedication.

Regarding the education system, I attended a very very very disadvantaged school with lack of resources. We had no science subjects we could do and limited higher level (3-4) all which I done. Out of 60+ students I'm the only one who went to 3rd level. Very appalling indeed.

cppilot98

Couple of points. You seem rather dedicated to the idea of doing an integrated course because of the perceived advantage it might give you. But have you thought it through?

So you need €100k, so you'll have to save €10k a year for ten years or €20k a year for five years. That is heavy duty saving and implies you'll have a very well paid job and or you'll have live like a hermit. It also means you won't be flying much if at all for all those years. Can you manage that?

As for devoting your life to becoming a pilot to exclusion of all else, well let me tell you from experience, life has a way of getting in the way of plans and dreams. Stuff happens. Plus don't underestimate the advantage of having a good woman at your side. It was my wife who encouraged me back into flying and I can think of a number of friends who managed to combine a personal life including having children and managed to succeed in their ambition. If anything there is no greater incentive to succeed in that case.

Do not turn into a nerdy pilot. Pilots are by and large gregarious, self confident individuals. There is no room for introverts. Employers tend to look for a certain type of person as a pilot. This is not IT, geeks and nerds need not apply. Get out there and start flying for your PPL and meet other pilots and have fun.

By all means hang onto the dream but your approach to becoming a pilot has to be business like as well. It is just a job as you'll find when you get there.

Try and leave emotion out of it. Be practical.

endacl

TheBoss11 wrote: »

That's the thing I'd literally do anything to be a pilot, I'd devote my life to becoming one. I'd rather be a pilot then get married and have children it's just something I really want that bad. But to make this dream A reality I need to act now for 5-6 years, 100k for someone in my position is a life changing amount of money and for me to save this will take years of dedication.

Regarding the education system, I attended a very very very disadvantaged school with lack of resources. We had no science subjects we could do and limited higher level (3-4) all which I done. Out of 60+ students I'm the only one who went to 3rd level. Very appalling indeed.

Well done.

eatmyshorts

TheBoss11 wrote: »

That's the thing I'd literally do anything to be a pilot, I'd devote my life to becoming one. I'd rather be a pilot then get married and have children it's just something I really want that bad.

Unfortunately, its people with that attitude accepting borderline criminal terms & conditions and the dreaded pay-to-fly schemes that has driven the benefits of the job through the floor for the rest of us.

MarkAnthony

It's a real shame you folks don't have anything like the Air Cadets here. I know, I know, one AEF in the UK is probably better kitted out than the Irish airforce so not really practical.

Anyway - point I wanted to make was three of my pals from the Cadet days are now pilots I've lost touch with one, the other works for Monarch the other for an Air Ambulance service. Just pointing out Airline isn't the only way to go.

Best of luck, if it's your dream you'd be mad not to try and get it.

TheBoss11

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Unfortunately, its people with that attitude accepting borderline criminal terms & conditions and the dreaded pay-to-fly schemes that has driven the benefits of the job through the floor for the rest of us.

you make it sound like having a bit of ambition and determination is a bad thing.

eatmyshorts

TheBoss11 wrote: »

you make it sound like having a bit of ambition and determination is a bad thing.

Not at all, ambition and determination is definitely required to male it in the industry these days..
Just be wary of "selling your soul" for it.

Reoil

You could knocked down by a bus tomorrow. Go for it.
Better to try and fail than not try and regret.

TheBoss11

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Not at all, ambition and determination is definitely required to male it in the industry these days..
Just be wary of "selling your soul" for it.

Paying to fly wouldn't be an option for me. I don't come from a wealthy family and even if I did it's still not something I'd do. I would pay for a TR though

EI-DOR

Taken from PPRuNe. Some of you's need to read this!

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/557803-do-not-put-down-dream.html

Do NOT Put Down The Dream

Too many negative stories on here giving no positive advice to people starting out. So here is my story to date.

I left school with next to no qualifications. I managed to get into uni but hated every minute. So while i was there, back in 2011, i started to chase my dream of becoming a pilot.

I started my PPL at uni and worked non stop to fund it. I would be in uni 9-5, leave uni to go to work from 6-10pm, then i would leave that job and go work in a night club from 11-3Am. In the house for 4AM and got up to go to uni at 8Am. I did this for three years to fund my flying.

It almost killed me but i was determine.

Just as i finished uni, i managed to finish my PPL and i enrolled in ATPL ground school where i studied non stop for 14 months and continued the work schedule as mentioned above PLUS i was employed by my flying club and worked in Flight Ops on the weekends. Instead of taking payment in cash, i took flying hours and this covered ALL my hour building. It was a great job and i appreciate the opportunity. I learnt lots but more importantly, i met so many good contacts and even better friends!

I was getting closed to death by this point, but i was even more determined. I forgot what sleep was.

When i was finishing my ATPLS and about to start my CPL, MEP/IR, i was offered a job with the airfield that i flew from. I was taken on as Airfield Operations which included Fire Crew and Air/Ground Operator. Another fantastic opportunity. Ive met some fantastic people and contacts and folk on the airfield were so generous in offering me incredibly cheap flying on their aircrafts. I even got some free twin time, more on that later.

I finished my CPL, MEP/IR in the minimum time, all that was left was my MCC which i completed at CRM Aviation in White Waltham. Can't recommend them enough! Fantastic organisation.

So that was me. The very start of 2014 and i had my Frozen ATPL in hand and only just spent over £30,000.

Seriously.

For the last year i have been working at the airfield in my Operations role. Flying regularly with people on the airfield. The fantastic contacts i gained from my aviation jobs led me to fly for a local parachute organisation where i built almost 300 hours over the summer. I also had paid flying jobs doing pipeline survey, aerial mapping, forestry survey and aerial photography and as mentioned before, the twin time. Unbelievably lucky. This took me to just over 500 hours.

My first airline interview finally came along late in 2014. Literally the last week of the year and for a regional turboprop airline. Alas, it wasn't to be. The week following my rejection, i was offered two more interview. One was for one of Europe's largest carriers and the other was for an English cargo company. Would you believe the interviews were to be on the same day?! A tough decision lay ahead but i went with my heart.

One very long interview processes later, i have been offered my dream job with my dream airline flying heavy passenger jets around Europe (not Ryanair) and even better, no type rating cost and i'll be going onto the 737.

Yes, I'm incredibly lucky, but i believe that one thing made me stand out from the crowd. My CV. Everyone has the same little blue book with the same bit of paper inside it. The hardest thing in getting a job is getting the interview and i believe that me working jobs that were the lowest rungs of the ladder made me stand out. My passion for aviation and to fly is put across in my CV.

So if you want to get ahead in this industry and you're just starting out, my advice is to make yourself stand out:
Do jobs that show you're keen. Do flying that is voluntarily and that will build your skill like parachuting, tug flying, ANYTHING!
Get a job that will get you contacts. Meet people, learn the industry. DONT GET A BAD NAME FOR YOURSELF! That interview for the cargo company came about because two pilots for the outfit came to my airport during their rest period. The captain was the fleet manager and he gave me his number and email and told me to email him my cv etc. I did, and i was offered the interview a week later!

SO, if you're starting out, its not as bad as everyone says. True grit and determination will get you where you want to go. If you want it, go get it.

I've been qualified for just over a year. I spent 30K.I have nearly 600 hours and I'm going onto a 737 with NO typerating costs. The jobs are there. You just have to look.

EI-DOR

Regarding Ryanair, what's the story with having an Irish Passport?

Cessna_Pilot

TheBoss11 wrote: »

I'm totally confidant in passing a class 1 medical I'm very healthy. Again in regards to the PPL do you recommend do it in a club or a flights school? After all this is my foundation of flying so I'd like it to be a high standard of training.

First things first. Book the class one first and foremost, then make a plan.

cppilot98

Read and digest that post from PPruNe those of you who want to progress your career. So you're thinking that's Britain, more opportunities. But I can name three Irish lads who took a similar route. Two are flying for regional airlines, one for a smaller operator. Two years ago all three had ordinary jobs but like our friend in the post they hung around the airfields making contacts, flying and having fun and they did anything they could to progress.

They all say they're lucky too. But luck doesn't come into it.

They found the flying jobs that apparently don't exist.

pepe the prawn

EI-DOR wrote: »

Regarding Ryanair, what's the story with having an Irish Passport?

Unfortunately, I think it means you are exempt from their pikot recruitment process. What a joke.

TheBoss11

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Unfortunately, I think it means you are exempt from their pikot recruitment process. What a joke.

Apparently irish and Dutch both

EI-DOR

Wtf.. So how do Irish Pilots get in with them? I'm assuming DE?

Pinch Flat

I'd say go for it - if you have the cash and you're 19 with no commitments start chipping at that ppl but take heed to the importance of the medical.

I was in a similar position to yourself - dreamt of being a pilot from as early as I can remember - at 19 I had some money saved and took flying lessons while my mates were p!ssing it away down the pub. Cycled to and from the local airport, hung around digging in with all sorts of odd jobs. My aim was to have a ppl by mid 20's, work for a few years, save a bit more then add to it bit by bit. Eventually take the leap and borrow if necessary to get to the end game.

For me other things got in the way - mainly I ended up married with a mortgage. Earned a modest salary so never had the extent of spare cash to keep the show on the road and take expensive flying lessons. At that point the dream was over - there was no way my wife was going to consider me borrowing money on what was a huge gamble. Seriously considered moving down to waterford (originally from there so accommodation coats would have been minimal) and doing the atpl - I knew people that took the plunge, some in their late 30s, and for the majority it worked out - electrical technicians, a school teacher and a quantity surveyor - the day of jacking the job upon getting that elusive position in the right seat must have been fabulous. Then again I know of people living near me who borrowed the kitchen sink and got badly burned - €100k in debt and on the dole. Not much fun.

There's not a day that goes by that I do not regret pursuing my dream more seriously - I'm 43 now so for me it'll never happen. I work in an area that I have interest in but would much prefer to be flying - there'll be a lot of time to think of this as you get older and don't pursue it. The longer you leave it the harder it'll be.

TheBoss11

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I'd say go for it - if you have the cash and you're 19 with no commitments start chipping at that ppl but take heed to the importance of the medical.

I was in a similar position to yourself - dreamt of being a pilot from as early as I can remember - at 19 I had some money saved and took flying lessons while my mates were p!ssing it away down the pub. Cycled to and from the local airport, hung around digging in with all sorts of odd jobs. My aim was to have a ppl by mid 20's, work for a few years, save a bit more then add to it bit by bit. Eventually take the leap and borrow if necessary to get to the end game.

For me other things got in the way - mainly I ended up married with a mortgage. Earned a modest salary so never had the extent of spare cash to keep the show on the road and take expensive flying lessons. At that point the dream was over - there was no way my wife was going to consider me borrowing money on what was a huge gamble. Seriously considered moving down to waterford (originally from there so accommodation coats would have been minimal) and doing the atpl - I knew people that took the plunge, some in their late 30s, and for the majority it worked out - electrical technicians, a school teacher and a quantity surveyor - the day of jacking the job upon getting that elusive position in the right seat must have been fabulous. Then again I know of people living near me who borrowed the kitchen sink and hot badly burned - €100kvim debt and on the dole. Not much fun.

There's not a day that goes by that I do not regret pursuing my dream more seriously - I'm 43 now so for me it'll never happen. I work in an area that I have interest in but would much prefer to be flying - there'll be a lot of time to think of this as you get older and don't pursue it. The longer you leave it the harder it'll be.

the best advice I've ever gotten for this situation. I really don't want to be in my 60s and regreat never pursuing my dream. It's all I've ever wanted. I know an accountant is a very good job and probably pays more than a pilot but it's not a career id be happy with. The main initiative for not doing my ppl at this time is because that would be putting me on a modular track, this is something I've rather not do. Plus I can add onto my current savings to get a deposit for flight training.

Even at 43 it's still not too late. You'd get a modular course done for 35k and ive heard of 50 year olds getting FO positions in regional airlines, apparently they prefer the older guys as there more inclined to stay for the remainder of their careers.

pepe the prawn

TheBoss11 wrote: »

....//. The main initiative for not doing my ppl at this time is because that would be putting me on a modular track, this is something I've rather not do. Plus I can add onto my current savings to get a deposit for flight training......

Even if you have a ppl you can slot into an integrated course, you get credit for the hours you have done up to a maximum of 45 hours I think, plus obviously a financial discount also..

ilavela

I can't post a link but there is "Flight Training Exhibition" at Convention Centre, Dublin this Saturday if anyone interested.

pilottrainingexhibitions.com/dublin/

Alaba320

MarkAnthony wrote: »

All I need is a cure for Colour Blindness and I can abandon this silly legal career!

As long as you can pass a Holmes Wright lantern test or CAD test, then you can be issued with an unrestricted class 1.

The Ishihara test plates are only used as a 'quick reference'. Is a candidate correctly identifies the Ishihara plates, then the pilot has normal colour vision. If he does not pass IT DOES NOT mean that he is colour deficient, a secondary test must be conducted to determine if candidate is 'colour normal' or 'colour deficient'. IAA use the Holmes Wright Lanter test and CAA use a CAD test.

I can only pick out a handful of Ishihara plates, but aced the lantern test and the CAD test with no issue, I now have an unrestricted class 1 and a job. So if you are basing your colour 'blindness' on the Ishihara test, then you may be doing yourself out of a pilots career on wrong information.

L1011

Alaba320 wrote: »

So if you are basing your colour 'blindness' on the Ishihara test, then you may be doing yourself out of a pilots career on wrong information.

This was the case with me, unfortunately my eyes are screwed in other, expensive to deal with ways. One or two ishihara plates are invisible to me but I passed a more intensive test.

MarkAnthony

Alaba320 wrote: »

As long as you can pass a Holmes Wright lantern test or CAD test, then you can be issued with an unrestricted class 1.

The Ishihara test plates are only used as a 'quick reference'. Is a candidate correctly identifies the Ishihara plates, then the pilot has normal colour vision. If he does not pass IT DOES NOT mean that he is colour deficient, a secondary test must be conducted to determine if candidate is 'colour normal' or 'colour deficient'. IAA use the Holmes Wright Lanter test and CAA use a CAD test.

I can only pick out a handful of Ishihara plates, but aced the lantern test and the CAD test with no issue, I now have an unrestricted class 1 and a job. So if you are basing your colour 'blindness' on the Ishihara test, then you may be doing yourself out of a pilots career on wrong information.

Can I ask, and feel free to tell me to mind my own business but are you dyslexic? The reason I ask is although I'm colour deficient the main reason I can see very few of the plates is dyslexia, rather than the very mild deficiency.

Dyslexics also, generally, have great 3D perception skills hence make excellent pilots, again generally of course.

de biz

"No Problem"

Alaba320

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Can I ask, and feel free to tell me to mind my own business but are you dyslexic? The reason I ask is although I'm colour deficient the main reason I can see very few of the plates is dyslexia, rather than the very mild deficiency.

Dyslexics also, generally, have great 3D perception skills hence make excellent pilots, again generally of course.

No, I'm not dyslexic, I have a slight Red/Green colour deficiency, which makes 2 or 3 of the Ishihara plates a little difficult to make out. The lantern test is a simple process, where two LEDs within a box illuminate one of three colours (red, white, green) You simply have to say what colours the LEDs are. So provided your colour deficiency is mild or non-existent, then you should be fine, your dyslexia won't affect you in this test.

eatmyshorts

cppilot98 wrote: »

. Dyslexia is NOT a disqualifying condition for flying.

It can be depending on the jurisdiction.

lord lucan

Deep breaths everyone, the conversation has moved rapidly away from the OP's question and most of it has no relevance to the thread. It'll stay open but any more personal attacks and the thread is getting locked.

Tenger

cppilot98, I can understand your position, However a generalisation was posted, (and was stated as such so no foul there)
...this was then responded to. The responding poster based his response on his personal experience, which is that people with dyslexia may not be commercial pilots. This wasn't a slur on those individuals, it was a statement of fact pertaining to their location and legal jurisdiction. This poster was then jumped upon for his "lack of awareness"

So I'm deleting the off topic debate on dyslexia. This does not mean it is not a valid topic for discussion in another thread however.

I don't want anyone to take personal offence here. But it was getting a little heated,and obviously close to the bone for some posters.
In addition any provocative PM's are as susceptible to censure as personal attacks in thread, and as such should be reported.