Two lane road = dual carriageway?

galah

Hi, this may be a stupid question, but has me wondering...

If i drive on a road with two lanes in each direction, and "my" two lanes ending in a roundabout, am i obliged to drive on the left until i come close to the roundabout or can i stay in whichever lane i need to be in for turning at the roundabout from the start? Do rules of over/undertaking apply?

This road is, as far as i know/ judging by the lack of signage not a dual carriageway, but i see a lot of other drivers acting like people in the right lane should move over, even if these people need to be in that right lane later to turn at the roundabout.

(For locals, I'm talking about bothar na dtreabh in Galway, westbound from Tuam road junction towards the menlo roundabout).

The ROTR are not clear on this, to me at least. My opinion (foreign drivers license though...:D) would be that i can stay in the lane i need to be in from the start, since it is not actually a dual carriageway.

If anyone could shed light on this I'd be delighted.

corktina

sounds like a dual carriageway to me...does it have a centre reservation?

If you are travelling slowly you should move to the left to allow faster traffic pass and indicate right when you near the roundabout and move to the right hand lane

_Brian

By the description your giving its a dual carriageway, what is the speed limit applied..

However, I would say that best driving practice would say you should drive in the leftmost lane until you need to move to the right lane.

So, on this current road would you suppose its OK to drive in the right hand lane at 35kph because eventually you'll need to be in the right hand lane, that could be 15Km's away ??

Sheldons Brain

If it has a central reservation it is a dualler, if it doesn't it isn't.

Spook_ie

It's 4 lanes of traffic (2 in each direction ) shouldn't even cause any concern because unless you are overtaking or turning right you should be in the left lane!

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Bothar+na+dTreabh,+Galway/@53.287074,-9.041712,3a,75y,252.75h,74.85t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1soRlFFxVFR946v-cJWz9Iwg!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x485b9135ae14b737:0x93ab6ff568f2f964

alias no.9

Does't matter if there's a central reservation or not, keep left unless you're overtaking. It's more than a decade since I lived in Galway but I traveled that road daily for a number of years and I presume the Tuam road junction (it was a roundabout in my day) and the Menlo Roundabout haven't moved any closer together which makes them about 2km apart. 200m before the roundabout is more than enough to be getting in lane for the roundabout unless there's tailbacks.

pa990

Dual = 2

Two lanes



Two lanes in same direction
=
Dual carriageway

Simples..


Anyway, the first rule of driving is.
DRIVE ON THE LEFT

slimjimmc

From Google Maps it doesn't look like a dual carriageway since there is no central divide, it's just a single carriageway road with dual lanes.

In either case you are required to stay left unless road markings/signs say otherwise or traffic conditions dictate.

CiniO

Generally roundabouts in Galway seem to be very confusing.
F.e. this one - which is at the end of motorway.

Two lanes marked for going straight ahead, but unfortunately on this roundabout you can either turn left or right. No road straight ahead.
So what are those markings for, and which lane should be used for going where?


Also Bodkin roundabot (now RIP luckily) was an utter nightmare. When I first saw it probaby in 2004, I thought to myself - how many pints of Guinness an road engineer had who designed this roundabout? Must have been over 20 I suppose.
You could stand there all day, and there wouldn't be a minute someone not cutting in front of someone else forcing them to brake emergency, or running a red light, or stopping or red light which wouldn't apply to them, and so on.

galah

Speed limit is 50, no central reservation ( just a white line separating the oncoming lanes). Hence the slight confusion.

I dont see why i should drive on the left if i clearly want to be in the right hand lane, and i'm not going slow (all presuming it's not a dual carriageway, i learnt how to drive on motorways etc properly, never fear!) - and if it isnt a dual carriageway then undertaking does not apply, and people on the left could go even faster if they wished.

There's no road markings, but obviously signs indicating which lane to take for which exit at the roundabout.

However, if the general consensus is to keep left, i'm happy with that (even if i learnt this differently abroad, but that's ok, i can adapt )

corktina

you seem to have poor grasp of traffic laws. there are very limited occasions when you may overtake on the left, and these apply to all roads. You should only get into the right lane shortly before the roundabout

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

galah

No i dont have a poor grasp of traffic laws, thank you very much. It's not overtaking when i stay at the same speed in the same lane (while the traffic around me is moving at the same speed or slower. This is a busy road at peak times - and it seems that under other circumstances (quintcentennial bridge anyone?) people get called queue jumpers for changing lanes too late.

Del2005

galah wrote: »

Speed limit is 50, no central reservation ( just a white line separating the oncoming lanes). Hence the slight confusion.

I dont see why i should drive on the left if i clearly want to be in the right hand lane, and i'm not going slow (all presuming it's not a dual carriageway, i learnt how to drive on motorways etc properly, never fear!) - and if it isnt a dual carriageway then undertaking does not apply, and people on the left could go even faster if they wished.

There's no road markings, but obviously signs indicating which lane to take for which exit at the roundabout.

It doesn't matter what's dividing the road or how many lanes it has if there's no other traffic keep to the left most lane till you need to move over, this could be 1m from the roundabout with no other traffic or several hundred metres if there is.

galah wrote: »

However, if the general consensus is to keep left, i'm happy with that (even if i learnt this differently abroad, but that's ok, i can adapt )

Each country has it's own traffic laws so you obey the ones for the country your driving in not the one you learned in, or else there'd be a lot of head on collisions when people travel in countries which drive on the opposite side of the road.

alias no.9

galah wrote: »

No i dont have a poor grasp of traffic laws, thank you very much. It's not overtaking when i stay at the same speed in the same lane (while the traffic around me is moving at the same speed or slower. This is a busy road at peak times - and it seems that under other circumstances (quintcentennial bridge anyone?) people get called queue jumpers for changing lanes too late.

I had a quick look at street view and it tallies with my memory of most major roundabouts in Galway having diamond roundabout warning signs at 200m and 100m before the roundabout.

Keep left unless overtaking and once you get to the sign 200m before the roundabout, change lane if you need to for the roundabout.

If the traffic is backed up, join the back of the queue in the lane you need at the roundabout, wherever it forms.

slimjimmc

galah wrote: »

Speed limit is 50, no central reservation ( just a white line separating the oncoming lanes). Hence the slight confusion.

I dont see why i should drive on the left if i clearly want to be in the right hand lane, and i'm not going slow (all presuming it's not a dual carriageway, i learnt how to drive on motorways etc properly, never fear!) - and if it isnt a dual carriageway then undertaking does not apply, and people on the left could go even faster if they wished.

There's no road markings, but obviously signs indicating which lane to take for which exit at the roundabout.

However, if the general consensus is to keep left, i'm happy with that (even if i learnt this differently abroad, but that's ok, i can adapt )

I don't know where you learned to drive but in this country there is no such rule. The law here says you must drive in the leftmost lane where possible. The law here also says you cannot pass on the left (a.k.a. 'undertake') except under certain specifically mentioned circumstances such as slow moving traffic queues, or traffic indicating to turn right or you turning left immediately after passing. The law on passing on the left applies to all types of road, motorway, dual carriageway, single carriageways (such as the road under discussion).

As others have said, kept left but switch lanes close to the roundabout if you intend turning right.

Sheldons Brain

corktina wrote: »

you seem to have poor grasp of traffic laws. there are very limited occasions when you may overtake on the left, and these apply to all roads. You should only get into the right lane shortly before the roundabout

The rules are not the same for S4 roads versus D2 roads although courtesy and good driving should keep you to the left on the former.

JillyQ

Its not a dual carraige way. It also comes under the 50kph speed limit

Left lane going towards motor park & dunnes right lane for menlo park & headford road

CiniO

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

The rules are not the same for S4 roads versus D2 roads although courtesy and good driving should keep you to the left on the former.

Out of curiosity what is S4 and D2?
You mean "single carriageway 4 lanes" and "dual carriageway 2 lanes each carriageway" ?

If so - what are the differences in rules you mentioned? Because I can hardly think of any...

corktina

nor can I. ROTR apply to all roads the same.

corktina

pa990 wrote: »

Dual = 2

Two lanes



Two lanes in same direction
=
Dual carriageway

Simples..


Anyway, the first rule of driving is.
DRIVE ON THE LEFT

this is incorrect. Dual carriageway refers to segregated traffic lanes in each direction, not the number of lanes. Thus a dual carriageway could have just one lane in each direction or several.

cml387

I would have thought that the same rule should apply in this situation as in any case where there are two lanes leading into a roundabout.

And in that case you could have the left lane "undertaking" the right lane in certain traffic volumes, for a distance back from the roundabout.

creedp

cml387 wrote: »

I would have thought that the same rule should apply in this situation as in any case where there are two lanes leading into a roundabout.

And in that case you could have the left lane "undertaking" the right lane in certain traffic volumes, for a distance back from the roundabout.

You'd need to be careful as they'll be a contract taken out on your like if you admit to undertaking in any circumstance ..

galah

well I'm glad it's not clear cut - means I asked a valid question :P

So maybe move onto a different scenario - two lanes, but IN town (for example, Merchants Road in Galway, or along the Quays in Dublin (if memory serves me right) - would you always be obliged to drive on the left? And you can't be faster in the left lane than the right lane? I would think not...

Same would apply in my eyes to Bothar n dtreabh - just because it looks like a dual carriageway, doesn't mean that it is - technically it's still another inner city road with an inner city speed limit, two lanes leading to two different directions (after a while, granted).

corktina

creedp wrote: »

You'd need to be careful as they'll be a contract taken out on your like if you admit to undertaking in any circumstance ..

there are clear rules on when you may undertake, so there wont be any contract taken out by me.

@Galah....it IS clear cut, you aren't reading the posts! It doesn't matter what type of road it is, the ROTR apply to it

blackwhite

galah wrote: »

well I'm glad it's not clear cut - means I asked a valid question :P

So maybe move onto a different scenario - two lanes, but IN town (for example, Merchants Road in Galway, or along the Quays in Dublin (if memory serves me right) - would you always be obliged to drive on the left? And you can't be faster in the left lane than the right lane? I would think not...

Same would apply in my eyes to Bothar n dtreabh - just because it looks like a dual carriageway, doesn't mean that it is - technically it's still another inner city road with an inner city speed limit, two lanes leading to two different directions (after a while, granted).

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/si/0294.html#zzsi294y1964a17

The legislation doesn't distinguish between "inner city roads" and any other type of road - the same rules apply.

Basically - keep left until you have a need to move right.


On the Quays in Dublin, or along Merchant's Road, you generally have slow moving traffic, which is an exception covered in section 19-4-c below.
If you drive on these roads at a quiet time (for example I've often had reason to drive along the Quays in the early hours of the morning), then legally speaking you are obliged to keep in the left lane, except when overtaking or moving out to turn right.

Obligation to drive on the left and to use traffic lanes
17.—(1) A driver shall drive as near to the left hand side of the roadway as is necessary in order to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or a pedestrian, approaching traffic to pass him on his right and overtaking traffic to overtake him on his right.

Overtaking
19.—(1) A driver shall not overtake (or attempt to overtake) if to do so would endanger, or cause inconvenience to, any other person.

(2) A driver shall not overtake (or attempt to overtake) unless he can clearly see a portion of the roadway which—

(a) is free from approaching traffic, pedestrians and any obstruction, and

(b) is sufficiently long and wide to permit the overtaking to be completed without danger or inconvenience to other traffic or pedestrians.

(3) A driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so.

(4) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of this bye-law, a driver may overtake on the left—

(a) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled his intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,

(b) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after having overtaken, to turn left at a road junction and has signalled this intention,

(c) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

slimjimmc

galah wrote: »

well I'm glad it's not clear cut - means I asked a valid question :P

It's very clear cut.

galah wrote: »

So maybe move onto a different scenario - two lanes, but IN town (for example, Merchants Road in Galway, or along the Quays in Dublin (if memory serves me right) - would you always be obliged to drive on the left? And you can't be faster in the left lane than the right lane? I would think not...

You're obliged to be in the left until you need to go into the right. You can go faster in the left if the traffic is moving slowly.

galah wrote: »

Same would apply in my eyes to Bothar n dtreabh - just because it looks like a dual carriageway, doesn't mean that it is - technically it's still another inner city road with an inner city speed limit, two lanes leading to two different directions (after a while, granted).

It's doesn't even look like a DC (a DC has 2 carriageways physically separated by a barrier/median, each carriageway can have 1 or more lanes) and even if it was it wouldn't matter. The laws on driving on the left and passing on the left are exactly the same regardless of the type of road.

ironclaw

(c) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

One of the biggest slip ups in Irish motoring law. Really needs to be re-written especially with 3 lane roads now the norm.

slimjimmc

ironclaw wrote: »

One of the biggest slip ups in Irish motoring law. Really needs to be re-written especially with 3 lane roads now the norm.

It seems we're more the norm rather than the exception. Passing on the inside is generally prohibited in fast moving traffic in many countries, apparently even in some US states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtaking#Overtaking_on_the_inside

ironclaw

slimjimmc wrote: »

It seems we're more the norm rather than the exception. Passing on the inside is generally prohibited in fast moving traffic in many countries, apparently even in some US states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtaking#Overtaking_on_the_inside

Its certainly against the code in most US States. I know a number of people pulled for it over there.

And the UK makes note of congested traffic, queuing etc. I believe Germany even has an allowed speed differential in the clause.

Here, some people take the line that if they are doing the limit (say on a Motorway) and traffic to their right isn't, then the traffic to their right is 'slow moving' Which although is correct it flies in the face of the common sense of what the law is trying to say.

I'm not saying legislate for every eventuality, but it should be sharpened up.

galah

this might go a little off topic (thanks all for the clarification on the lanes though) - but I have heard (not necessarily my opinion but I can see the argument, and this is mentioned above as well) that it is not overtaking/undertaking if you pass someone but stay in the same lane.*

*edit: yes, this is part of German motoring law, and that's why I heard about it - within city limits, if there are at least two lanes going in the same direction, you can pass out vehicles on either side. which explains my confusion here, as I guess there's remnants of German motoring law floating around my head, while trying to apply these to Irish rules.

So if I am behind someone, and need to move lanes to pass them out and move back into the same lane then, this would be over or undertaking. But if I am in a lane and someone else is in another lane, I am merely continuing at the same speed, and if the person in the other lane is slower, it does not affect me.

Otherwise everyone would have to be going at the speed of the slowest person in any lane, which would cause massive tailbacks (I know there's the argument that slow moving people should always be on the left, but what is considered "slow"? For some people, the speed limit is too slow...)

At the end of the day the whole thing is probably moot anyway, as nothing is really ever enforced here...(in Germany, you will also be prosecuted for tailgaiting for example, they can measure the relative distances to other cars etc).

corktina

this would'nt be a problem if everyone kept to the left (or driving) lane unless overtaking (until they were approaching that roundabout)...which returns us to the first post ..maybe you can see that you have been the problem?

alias no.9

galah wrote: »

well I'm glad it's not clear cut - means I asked a valid question :P

So maybe move onto a different scenario - two lanes, but IN town (for example, Merchants Road in Galway, or along the Quays in Dublin (if memory serves me right) - would you always be obliged to drive on the left? And you can't be faster in the left lane than the right lane? I would think not...

Same would apply in my eyes to Bothar n dtreabh - just because it looks like a dual carriageway, doesn't mean that it is - technically it's still another inner city road with an inner city speed limit, two lanes leading to two different directions (after a while, granted).

The only ambiguity is on the part of those seeking to ignore the most basic of rules of the road.
It's 2km of uninterrupted roadway, keep left unless you're overtaking and get in lane approaching the roundabout or join the back of the queue if its backed up. Central reservations or barriers don't come into it.

blackwhite

galah wrote: »

So if I am behind someone, and need to move lanes to pass them out and move back into the same lane then, this would be over or undertaking. But if I am in a lane and someone else is in another lane, I am merely continuing at the same speed, and if the person in the other lane is slower, it does not affect me.

Undertaking is what you do with a hearse.
Any time you passing someone who is travelling in the same direction then it's overtaking. Whether you pass on the left or right, and whether you actually changed lanes is irrelevant.

galah wrote: »

Otherwise everyone would have to be going at the speed of the slowest person in any lane, which would cause massive tailbacks (I know there's the argument that slow moving people should always be on the left, but what is considered "slow"? For some people, the speed limit is too slow...)

If someone isn't overtaking, then they shouldn't be in the right hand lane (unless of course they're approaching a right hand turn - and then one of the exemptions mentioned in the legislation comes into play). The speed they are travelling at is irrelevant; fast or slow, you should only occupy the right hand lane when overtaking. If someone is overtaking (assuming only two lanes), then it's going to be impossible to pass them on the left.
If the road is so congested that there's slow-moving traffic in both lanes, then there's an exemption in the law for that.

galah wrote: »

At the end of the day the whole thing is probably moot anyway, as nothing is really ever enforced here...(in Germany, you will also be prosecuted for tailgaiting for example, they can measure the relative distances to other cars etc).

(Firstly, congratulations on being the rare Boardsie who correctly uses "moot point" - seeing people post about "mute" points drives me daft ).
The final part of your post is the key point really - there's no enforcement here of anything other than speed (and even that is enforced very loosely). If lane discipline was properly enforced, then it would never be possible for anyone to "overtake" on the left.

People get annoyed and upset about people not understanding the rules of the road - but given how shockingly bad the behaviour of a large number of drivers tends to be, is really shouldn't be surprising that people get confused as to what the actual rules of the road actually are!
If you see enough people continually doing the wrong thing, and not being pulled up for it, then its natural that some people will assume that there's nothing wrong at all.

galah

that's pretty much the problem - no one gives a toss, and if the law enforcers dont even care, why should i? Pretty depressing but explains a lot.

Also, to the poster who thinks i'm the problem - i'd say on the list of problems people face on the road, choosing the left or right lane of a stretch of road in a small part of galway is probably not high up.

Glad i asked though, as it seems that a lot of stuff that is legislated for elsewhere is bunged into one 'fits all' rule here.

corktina

you're driving 2 km in the wrong lane and people behind you are losing patience and trying to get you to move over and you don't think you are causing a problem?

galah

I said i'm not high up on the list of problems people could face on the road. It's not like i'm crawling along 20 kmh below the limit and i obviously move out of the way if someone feels they need to do 100 in a 50 zone, i'm not a dickhead blocking people for the craic. Stop making assumptions about my driving skills just because i dare to ask a question here. It's really off-putting, to be honest.

slimjimmc

I have to commend galah for asking the question rather than doing what many drivers do and assume he's right and stubbornly stick to his guns.

Sheldons Brain

from the rules of the road

You must not overtake when

• You are at or near a pelican crossing, zebra crossing or at pedestrian
• signals.
• A traffic sign or road marking prohibits it.
• You are approaching a junction.
• You are on the approach to a corner, bend, dip in the road, hump-back
  bridge, brow of a hill or on a narrow road.
• You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway when
  traffic is moving at normal speed.
• At any other time, to do so would cause danger or inconvenience to another road user.

ironclaw

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

You must not overtake when

• You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway when
  traffic is moving at normal speed.
  

CiniO

ironclaw wrote: »

What's strange about that?

slimjimmc

ironclaw wrote: »

Seems to be a reiteration of the 'do not pass on the left' rule. It makes sense that if you're overtaking traffic while in the left lane then you must be passing on the inside otherwise you'd have moved into the lane on your right in order to get by.
Still doesn't mean it's legal to pass in the left-hand lane of other road classes except in the specified circumstances.

Sheldons Brain

slimjimmc wrote: »

Still doesn't mean it's legal to pass in the left-hand lane of other road classes except in the specified circumstances.

Fine, direct us to the legislation that prohibits this.

slimjimmc

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Fine, direct us to the legislation that prohibits this.

S.I. No. 182/1997 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997

Drive on Left
9. Save where otherwise required by these Regulations, a vehicle shall be driven on the left hand side of the roadway in such a manner so as to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or pedestrians, approaching traffic to pass on the right and overtaking traffic to overtake on the right.

S.I. No. 332/2012 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012

“(5)(a) A driver (other than a pedal cyclist) may only overtake on the left—

(i) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or turn to the left,

(ii) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn to the left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention, or

(iii) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver’s right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle,

Now it's your turn. Please direct us to the direct us to the legislation that allows it.

CiniO

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Fine, direct us to the legislation that prohibits this.

(4) Subject to the provisions of sub-article (5), a driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so.

(5) A driver may only overtake on the left—

( a ) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,
( b ) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention,
( c ) in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a10