Am I being stupid?

LegacyUser

I will try keep this short, BUT I would be very grateful for opinions.

I am married 10 plus years, 4 children, the usual problems of family life, bereavments, etc..

Our marraige has been difficult for some time. My H wanted a divorce some months back because I didn't make a big enough effort for our anniversary. He left me like that for 5 days until he accepted my proposal of counselling.
The counselling was difficult but I felt helped.
I am not without fault, and i know marriages are difficult.
My H didn't like being told by the counseller he was guilty of emotional abuse, by not letting me speak ( he shouted a lot and i used to keep quite so as to not upset the kids).
I have worked on being more positive and a few more issues, and he has worked on the shouting and i felt we were moving to a more positive place.

But today... and i know i shouldn't... he had left his email open on the family laptop. There was a lot of emails from one girl Tiffiany (whom i didn't recognise). I had had trust issues... I felt he had an inappropiate friendship with a girl of work, sharing and chatting very familiar, he told me i was wrong. ANYWAY the Tiffiany is in America and there is blatant flirting and discussing our family life, telling her our childrens names, talk of our bad sex life, asking for tips of dating, (it being so long since he was out there), he is considering tinder and other hurtful discussions.

I confronted him, admitted i had no right to read his emails. He wandered around the issue a lot. She is a vent for him. He dosent want to bad mouth me to our friends. He is sorry for the flirting, but it was a few weeks back and he thought we were in a bad place. In the last two days, he discussed finding a time they would both be up, for a call. He says he regerts that, and for the last while, he had pulled back on flirting and it was just chatting. So here is the question... AM I STUPID to be still thinking of ways to make this marriage work? I know it was not phsyical, but emotionally it was an affair, i feel broken. What do I do now?

LegacyUser

Is there anyone who can relate or reply or give me advice?

I am so upset - i can't get me head around it all...
I feel so stupid for trying when he obviously wasn't interested...
I guess thats why i am so upset..

Its another mail in the coffin of what we were.

denhaagenite

toostupidforwords wrote: »

AM I STUPID to be still thinking of ways to make this marriage work? I know it was not phsyical, but emotionally it was an affair, i feel broken. What do I do now?

I don't think it was an emotional affair really, I just think he needs to talk to someone and has decided that (maybe out of a misguided respect for you?) he would rather talk to a stranger than people you both know.

I think for the sake of your four children and for 10+ years together you both need to work a bit harder. Am I correct that the counselling is past tense? I think it would be worth pursuing more counselling, both together and separately, and making a decision after that avenue has been exhausted.

Nymeria

Hi OP, I'm so sorry you are going through this. You are NOT stupid for trying to make your marriage work, its not stupid to want to work things out. But there are a few things you have said that make it seem like your husband doesn't really want to work things out, even if he says he does.

toostupidforwords wrote: »

Our marraige has been difficult for some time. My H wanted a divorce some months back because I didn't make a big enough effort for our anniversary. He left me like that for 5 days until he accepted my proposal of counselling.

You say that he left for 5 days, because you didn't put enough effort into your anniversary? were there other factors because that sounds ridiculous - fair enough if you were fighting a lot, but to leave and blame you like that seems extremely selfish of him.

toostupidforwords wrote: »

My H didn't like being told by the counseller he was guilty of emotional abuse, by not letting me speak ( he shouted a lot and i used to keep quite so as to not upset the kids).

Shouting you down is a common technique, and it works, he shuts you up so he doesn't have to listen to your opinion. He sounds like a bully...and of course he didn't want to hear the truth from the counsellor about it. That would mean admitting to his faults, which he doesn't want to do.

toostupidforwords wrote: »

I felt he had an inappropiate friendship with a girl of work, sharing and chatting very familiar, he told me i was wrong. ANYWAY the Tiffiany is in America and there is blatant flirting and discussing our family life, telling her our childrens names, talk of our bad sex life, asking for tips of dating, (it being so long since he was out there), he is considering tinder and other hurtful discussions.

So he had an online emotional affair, and told secrets about your personal life to a virtual stranger. That is not acceptable, not is it the same as him venting down the pub to his friends.

toostupidforwords wrote: »

He is sorry for the flirting, but it was a few weeks back and he thought we were in a bad place. In the last two days, he discussed finding a time they would both be up, for a call. He says he regerts that, and for the last while, he had pulled back on flirting and it was just chatting.

Once again, he is not taking responsibility for his actions and minimising his behaviour. Do you think he really would have stopped if you hadn't found out?

I know you are in shock and hurting, but this should be the catalyst for you to see how this man's actions are hurting you.

From the sounds of it, he has very little respect for you or your marriage...it takes two people to make a marriage work, and he is not putting in his side of effort. Instead he is looking outside the marriage for distractions to make himself feel better. He doesn't want to go to counselling because it means facing up to uncomfortable truths about his own behaviour.

I'm sorry, but I think the time has come for you to think of yourself and your children and start to contemplate life without this man (who, in fact could walk our any day judging by past behaviour).

Is there anyone in real life, friends or family that you can talk to about this?
Have you thought about what YOU want, for yourself, for your kids...do you really want to be waiting around for the next time he flirts with women online, walks out or shouts you down?

You really deserve so much better x

Idle Passerby

These are the points that stand out

- he suggested divorce
- he uses flimsy excuses to leave you in limbo for 5 days
- he is seeking validation from other women
- he is considering online dating and looking for dating tips, in other words he's toying with the idea of being unfaithful

It doesn't sound like he's taking the counselling seriously. It kind of sounds like he's already decided its over for him.

Queen-Mise

Counselling seems to be the only way to me.

I don't think the marriage is hopeless though. However there is an incredible amount of work to be done (as in any marriage - anyone who tells you different is bullsh*tting).

The fact that he went to counselling the last time, and worked on some of his issues is a good sign, and the same for you.

Presumably you have a crazily busy house - with four children, working, finances, and everything else. I am wondering has your relationship suffered or has been neglected through everything else happening.

I'd be inclined to suggested the tried and trusted solution - go back to counselling and start to date each other again. Start building your personal relationship again.

I think there is hope. I am inclined to be believe what your husband said, he was exploring his feelings with the girl in the US, rather than seriously straying. Look at it as a positive, and that you finding out as a good thing, and work together to get a strong marriage.


And then devil advocate on myself - maybe I am also being very kind towards your husband. Leaving for five days over an anniversary gift - is so immature and childish, it defies words.

Try and if it doesn't work, at least then you can walk away with no regrets.

LegacyUser

Thank you denhaagenite for your response, I appreciate it.
Unfortunately we are currently IN counselling, and he took up with this girl since we started.
I had (stupidly) thought we were trying and moving forward, he was talking about me to this girl in America, telling her we were in counselling but it wasn't really working. He was emotionally invested with her. Which he denied. He can argue well, he is articulate and ties me in knots. But i managed to get the counseller for our usual time tonight. The counseller is better able to keep the discussion focused and he eventually admitted how it was an emotional affair.

Do you want a laugh....
We actually had been in such a good space last week, the counsellor had suggested changing to every second week. I had kept the babysitting arrangement in place, and had organised for us to go out tonight for the hour or two, just the two of us. I was so hopefuly and positive and he was still telling this girl, that he had nothing much to look forward to besides his chidlren and her emails.


I can only thank you a thousand times Nymeria for your kind and detailed response.
I was beginning to believe him, that i was over reacting.... Thank you,

You seem to have got to the crux of it Idle Passerby... I feel so stupid for trying when he basically had already started to back out.


I have to admit I am a fan of talking (counselling) Queen-Mise and unfortunately we can't return to counselling as we were still in it. AND doing all the little things, making efforts, prioritising us on occasion.

I guess I am still in shock. Trust shattered.

I am giving myself a few days to digest it all before we decide where to go from here. Thank you for your responses, I do appreciate them,

Littlekittylou

He is lying compulsively and continuously to his wife. That is NOT good.

Unfortunately we are currently IN counselling, and he took up with this girl since we started.

It's possible he is only ever able to think of himself. He has acted very very selfishly.

He has your self esteem at an all time low.

He can argue well, he is articulate and ties me in knots.

He needs to be genuine. I really feel for you it's really like you are exhausting yourself. He has no right to put you through the ringer like his.

Witchie

I would say go for another session or 2 of counselling so that when you do make a decision it is one based on the fact that you have made every effort to try to rescue your marriage.

If you do decide it is over please get all the support you can as your self esteem seems to be shattered and will need to be rebuilt.

Best of luck.

denhaagenite

I do think he needs some counselling on his own though. Just a space where he can talk freely and his own issues are the focal point.

LegacyUser

OP here.
Thanks for advice to date but i require more please...

I had asked for space from my H and he stayed away as requested.
Staying in a B&B long term isn't an option. (financially or emotionally)
I didn't want to tell our children it was over until i was sure. (So i lied to them about his absence, giving a plausible explanation)
So i had deicded he could come home while i was thinking...
and just take the space for myself to think, even with him in the house,
and return back to counselling myself and try and think what to do.

ALL OK _ until i asked to look at his email account, to verify his mail to the woman
telling her it was over... (i am so untrusting now - i know - that would have to change)
he gave me his permission and password readily...
he has all mails (sent and recieved) from and to this woman deleted.
WHILE reading his mails, i found a draft email with suicidal thoughts and goodbyes.
I don't know what to do now...
He has since deleted the draft and told me to forget it and it was just sleepless ramblings.
He has said he has looked for counselling but not got any replies yet..
What do i do?

denhaagenite

I think both of you are just too emotional to be making any permanent decisions, taking into account your family. I'm not saying you should stay together at all costs for the sake of the children, because obviously parents who aren't supposed to be together is NOT what's best for them, but if a split is inevitable then it's better to do it on good terms and with good mental health.

To be honest, he may have raised the idea of a divorce but if he really wanted out so badly wouldn't he just be gone by now? Also, your tone in this thread seems to suggest that you have mentally checked out of the marriage as well (this is not a criticism btw). In my experience, whether we realise it or not these kind of relationship blips are commonplace. 4 children, while I'm sure you both love them more than anything, can still cause a huge strain on a relationship.

I think space is a good idea, just to think about what you both want, then some individual counselling to form an idea about what's possible and what isn't. If you're both seeing a counsellor at the moment how is it so difficult for him to find someone to see on an individual basis? Surely your current counsellor would be able to help or arrange a referral?

Nymeria

Ok, I'm probably going to sound harsh here but really, the cynical part of me thinks he wanted you to see that draft, to get you to feel sorry for him. So he managed to delete all the incriminating emails, but left that one?

I have read before many times that threatening suicide can be a manipulation technique. Like I said, I know this sounds uncaring but really, even if he is feeling like that - it is not your responsibility.

I'm also a bit worried that you are expecting too much of counselling for him...what I mean by that is, counselling is a tool to help people understand their thought patterns, their behaviour, their motivations.... but it only works if he engages with it, if he does the hard work himself of owning his behaviour and accepting his mistakes. So far, very little of what he has done has shown that he would be willing to do that...he denied and denied, until he had no choice but to admit...then minimised his actions...then he deleted the evidence. All this is showing that his main focus is self-preservation.

So if he goes to counselling for a few weeks do you believe that will fix everything? Will it makes him a different person? less selfish? I'm not so sure.

The other thing is, you say you asked him for space, but in reality two or three days is not going to give you time to really think about this...
You say in your OP that you had suspected him of being involved with a woman at work previous to the emails you found...the only reason he admitted to it this time was because you had the evidence.. Can you really say that you wont just be waiting around for the next time he betrays your trust...what kind of life is that spending your days checking up on someone because you have no trust in them?

Look, this is all just my own perspective, you don't have to listen to any of it... but I urge you to again think of yourself here, put yourself first, because that is exactly what he is doing. What do you want for the future? what do you want to happen?

Maybe you want to work things out with him, and that is perfectly ok, but please make sure it is for the right reasons, not because you are afraid of the alternative.

Have you managed to talk to anyone in real life yet? Do you have friends you could confide in? Right now it seems like you could do with the extra support.

LegacyUser

Oh please, suicide threats are part of the script with emotional abusers. He knew you were looking at his computer. I'd be interested to see the date stamp on that document to see when it was created.

You need to understand more about emotional abuse. It makes you feel like constantly on shifting sqnd - as soon as you feel more certain about things he'll hit you with something manipulative out of left field. The object is to leave you not knowing whats for the best. You need to rely on his assurances.

http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/how-to-spot-an-assclown/

Also, chumplady.com in general

Also https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200812/are-you-dating-abuser

Gongoozler

So the only mail that was there when you looked, after he readily gave you his login details, was a draft (ie sent to no one) about feeling suicidal?

Hmmm.

I've been suicidal but it just seems to me that it was a little convenient for you to see that. Do you think it is maybe a ploy to force you to stay?