[Article] Landlord throws out tenants belongings

handlemaster

Landlord owed thousands clears his property for the next tenant .... how wrong can this be. Will he ever see a cent of it ?


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/landlord-threw-out-ashes-of-tenant-s-late-husband-court-hears-1.2124336

quadrifoglio verde

handlemaster wrote: »

Landlord owed thousands clears his property for the next tenant .... how wrong can this be. Will he ever see a cent of it ?


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/landlord-threw-out-ashes-of-tenant-s-late-husband-court-hears-1.2124336

I wonder how much arrears would have built up if the ll didn't go down the illegal route.
It's a bad reflection on the system in place if a ll is financially better off taking the illegal option.
A proper evictions process is badly needed in this country as well as a proper deposit dispute process

handlemaster

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

I wonder how much arrears would have built up if the ll didn't go down the illegal route.
It's a bad reflection on the system in place if a ll is financially better off taking the illegal option.
A proper evictions process is badly needed in this country as well as a proper deposit dispute process

so true. i would think a few years if it when totally by the book.... with appeals etc

kids always get thrown in to get some emotional response..

Michael D Not Higgins

I just read the tribunal report. This is the bit that really stuck out

"Mr Flanagan came across as an honest and professional agent. On the other hand Ms Magee was not a credible witness. Her attitude and behaviour at the Hearing was intemperate and her evidence was confused and lacked consistency."

She claimed there were ashes in the house but the landlord saw nothing of the sort. He also only entered after they had vacated and told him they had left. She claimed for tons of expensive electronics but the landlord said there were no electronics in the house.

By the way, these arrears date from 2009 and the tribunal was 2010. It's now 5 years later that he gets a court order.

http://www.prtb.ie/archive/2010%20Disputes/Tribunals%202010/TR315.DR1660.2010/Tribunal%20Report.pdf

Also worth noticing that there is no mention of any illegal entry from the landlord in the original tribunal.

handlemaster

sad state of affairs and some people will come on here and say its still the landlords fault.

rawn

This is awful. How can a tenant sit in a property for so long and NOT pay rent? I remember years ago there was a problem with unauthorized money going out from my bank account on the day the rent was due to be paid, so I had insufficient funds to pay it. I was absolutely sickened and could not stop apologizing to the LL, I begged and borrowed to pay it and sent it a day late, and felt sick with guilty about it. One fecking day and she didn't pay for what looks like years with no remorse, and by the looks of it stretched the truth to garner sympathy.

Mrs OBumble

rawn wrote: »

This is awful. How can a tenant sit in a property for so long and NOT pay rent? I remember years ago there was a problem with unauthorized money going out from my bank account on the day the rent was due to be paid, so I had insufficient funds to pay it. I was absolutely sickened and could not stop apologizing to the LL, I begged and borrowed to pay it and sent it a day late, and felt sick with guilty about it. One fecking day and she didn't pay for what looks like years with no remorse, and by the looks of it stretched the truth to garner sympathy.

It happens.

There is a small but defiant cohort in most populations that almost never pay any rent.

There is a not-so-small cohort that pay most of the rent and/or most of the time.

It's really just another type of anti-social behaviour, because when they get evicted from one place for not paying, the just go in somewhere else and start the whole cycle again - because we see it as kind of uncool to let people sleep in hedgerows these days.

handlemaster

Mrs O is right... With the out cry over homelessness people dont think perhaps some not all dont de serve housing. They as has been proven time and again have no respect for the properties /neighbours or landlord. Worst of all is when the state pays them the money for a roof over their heads and they refuse to pay the landlord.

ongarboy

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It happens.

There is a small but defiant cohort in most populations that almost never pay any rent.

There is a not-so-small cohort that pay most of the rent and/or most of the time.

It's really just another type of anti-social behaviour, because when they get evicted from one place for not paying, the just go in somewhere else and start the whole cycle again - because we see it as kind of uncool to let people sleep in hedgerows these days.

Yes, I wasn't aware such a cohort existed until relatives of mine who were first time landlords had a nightmare tenant like above recently. The tenants didn't pay rent for months and wrecked the place creating infinite heartache for my relatives. Eventually they left of their own accord as the courts/PTRB could/would not be in a position to do anything for months. Lo and behold a rental agency got in contact with my relative months later through some addressed correspondence for something else - the same nightmare tenants were shacking up in some new victim's house and had restarted the cycle of not paying rent for months on end again. I've heard of a few more similar stories since then. It's like a sophisticated dole scam that an increasing number of opportunists are availing of, knowing full well they will never have reprecussions....and frustratingly, the law is on their side unless the landlord is willing to wait months/years for due process and 1000s in lost income by which time such tenants have moved onto their next victim.

I know such tenants are the minority but it puts me off considering investment properties. Call me risk averse but I'd rather minimal deposit interest returns then the heartache of a nightmare tenant!

quadrifoglio verde

Harsh opinion probably but would tenants of this ilk be better off in a shelter system (similar to direct provision) with the children put into fostor care. The lady in question still has a roof over her head, while the children can be raised in an environment suitable for raising children.

godtabh

It goes both ways. I've had tenants do thousands of damage to my apartment and be taken to the PRTB to get their deposit back. I've also had tenants who looked after the place like it was their own.

My last tennant was great but he had to leave early. We had a good relationship and he got all his deposit back no issues.

My wifes last landlord was a monster. Coming and going as he pleased. Not registered with PRTB. Cash in hand. Never did a thing.

So its swings and roundabouts.

This case she seems like a numpty

Cuddlesworth

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Harsh opinion probably but would tenants of this ilk be better off in a shelter system (similar to direct provision) with the children put into fostor care. The lady in question still has a roof over her head, while the children can be raised in an environment suitable for raising children.

Best solution would be the council actually providing social means housing.

MarkAnthony

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Best solution would be the council actually providing social means housing.

Absolutely inexcusable given the amount of land out there and the fact that we probably had more unemployed builders and related trades than anything else.

This whole thing never gets the coverage it should.

How do I run to be a TD? Do I need to be Irish :pac:

the_syco

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Do I need to be Irish :pac:

Be 21 or over, an Irish citizen, and a teacher.

handlemaster wrote: »

Landlord owed thousands clears his property for the next tenant .... how wrong can this be. Will he ever see a cent of it ?


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/landlord-threw-out-ashes-of-tenant-s-late-husband-court-hears-1.2124336

I can see an increase of illegal evictions happening within the next month or so.

murphaph

British citizens may also stand for election to the Dáil.

d.pop

Stuff like this freaks me out.
We moved abroad for work (struggling in Ireland) and have rented out our home through an agency to a very nice family who look after house as if their own, pay on time etc.

We do plan to return in few years and hopefully will give tenants plenty of notice as we'll need several - 6 months of time to move ourselves, shipping etc.

If we came back home and the tenants stopped paying rent and wouldn't leave we would be financially ruined within a few months of trying to pay a mortgage and rent another place for ourselves in meantime.

Think its a bit different when it's your family home re legal rights but jeez I hate stories like this....nervous nervous..

markpb

d.pop wrote: »

We moved abroad for work (struggling in Ireland) and have rented out our home through an agency to a very nice family who look after house as if their own, pay on time etc.

We do plan to return in few years

This is slightly off-topic but landlords like you are a big problem In Ireland. Your tenant has moved in, made a home and is looking after it properly but it's all at your whim. When you decide to come home, they lose their home. I appreciate that you're probably going to do things by the book, abide by any fixed term lease and give then plenty of notice but you're still depriving them of any stability. What happens if their children are enrolled in a local school, what happens if they get on well with your neighbours or in the community? What happens if one of them is ill or unemployed when you tell them it's time to ship out and go house hunting? This is one of the reasons people are so hung up on buying a house instead of long term renting.

This has happened me twice in a row, both landlords were good people who treated us well but both ended the lease (legally) when it suited them.


I say this as someone who is renting out my house because I couldn't sell it. The difference is that unless something terrible happens, I won't be ending my tenants tenancy unless they do so out of their own desire.

Mrs OBumble

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Best solution would be the council actually providing social means housing.

Not necessarily.

Entrenched non-rent-payers don't always qualify for social housing: sometimes they have too much income from their jobs. (I kid you not.)

zagmund

"landlords like you are a big problem In Ireland" . . . "both ended the lease (legally) when it suited them."

I'm not really clear on what the issue is. Landlord rents out house. Contract exists. Legislation exists. Landlord does everything by the book and they are "a big problem"?

Would they be less of a problem if they threw the book away and did unexpected things? Or if they just didn't put the house on the market and so (with reduced supply in general) rental prices were higher?

z

Michael D Not Higgins

zagmund wrote: »

"landlords like you are a big problem In Ireland" . . . "both ended the lease (legally) when it suited them."

I'm not really clear on what the issue is. Landlord rents out house. Contract exists. Legislation exists. Landlord does everything by the book and they are "a big problem"?

Would they be less of a problem if they threw the book away and did unexpected things? Or if they just didn't put the house on the market and so (with reduced supply in general) rental prices were higher?

z

Or if the government tried to increase security of tenure for tenants, some landlords would pull out of the market, reducing supply and increasing prices. Or if you tried to have a two tier system with some on short contracts which have less security and some on longer with more security, no landlords would willingly cede more rights to the tenant.

MarkAnthony

murphaph wrote: »

British citizens may also stand for election to the Dáil.

Vote MarkAnthony! We have a Monster Raving Looney Party don't we?

Ah yes that's right all of them!

Do you think Boards will let me form the Boards.ie Party? Or just maybe stand as the Boards.ie independent candidate?

MarkAnthony

markpb wrote: »

This is slightly off-topic but landlords like you are a big problem In Ireland. Your tenant has moved in, made a home and is looking after it properly but it's all at your whim. When you decide to come home, they lose their home. I appreciate that you're probably going to do things by the book, abide by any fixed term lease and give then plenty of notice but you're still depriving them of any stability. What happens if their children are enrolled in a local school, what happens if they get on well with your neighbours or in the community? What happens if one of them is ill or unemployed when you tell them it's time to ship out and go house hunting? This is one of the reasons people are so hung up on buying a house instead of long term renting.

This has happened me twice in a row, both landlords were good people who treated us well but both ended the lease (legally) when it suited them.


I say this as someone who is renting out my house because I couldn't sell it. The difference is that unless something terrible happens, I won't be ending my tenants tenancy unless they do so out of their own desire.

I don't get this attitude. Aren't the die hard renters always telling us it's because they want flexibility and don't want to mend things that apparently break every day?

If you rent you've the security of a part IV and the flexibility to leave when it suits (to a certain extent with some easily fulfilled obligations.) That's the trade off.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Or if the government tried to increase security of tenure for tenants, some landlords would pull out of the market, reducing supply and increasing prices. Or if you tried to have a two tier system with some on short contracts which have less security and some on longer with more security, no landlords would willingly cede more rights to the tenant.

I don't agree with this tbh. It wouldn't suit everyone but there are many LL that would like longer arrangements. The problem is it's all on the tenants side, they can pretty much leave at any time/not pay the rent with practical impunity in Ireland.

bucketybuck

markpb wrote: »

This is slightly off-topic but landlords like you are a big problem In Ireland. Your tenant has moved in, made a home and is looking after it properly but it's all at your whim. When you decide to come home, they lose their home. I appreciate that you're probably going to do things by the book, abide by any fixed term lease and give then plenty of notice but you're still depriving them of any stability. What happens if their children are enrolled in a local school, what happens if they get on well with your neighbours or in the community? What happens if one of them is ill or unemployed when you tell them it's time to ship out and go house hunting? This is one of the reasons people are so hung up on buying a house instead of long term renting.

What a strange post. Basically you are complaining that renters don't get the advantages that come with actually owning the house. Well, of course they don't! If they want the stability that comes from owning a house, then raise the money and buy a freaking house.

Whats next, hire a car for a week and then complain because you have to give it back?

the_syco

markpb wrote: »

tenant
a home
their home
lease
stability
renting

And then he goes and says he'll do the exact same thing if he has to. Pot kettle black, tbh!

markpb wrote: »

The difference is that unless something terrible happens, I won't be ending my tenants tenancy unless they do so out of their own desire.

=-=

It's actually the system that is the problem. Rent doesn't get to landlord, not the systems issue. Rent allowance doesn't get paid to anyone (has happened), not the systems issue. Tenant refuse to pay, not the systems issue.

Now, landlords aren't accepting RA. System does knee-jerk reaction which will screw those on RA more. This will only end one way for those on RA; badly.

hfallada

The Government needs to decide whether are going to give PRTB more powers or abolish it. It isnt fit for purpose at all. It shouldnt take so long to evict someone that isnt paying their rent. In the US, if a tenant is anti-social you can get a court ordered eviction pretty much within a day. You can get them evicted extremely quickly too.

Here you have to wait for a PRTB hearing, which can take up to a year. It would make more sense for local authorities to resolve landlord/tenant disputes, that are trivial and free the PRTBs time for bigger issues

Grandpa Hassan

markpb wrote: »

This is slightly off-topic but landlords like you are a big problem In Ireland. .

That is typical of a 'blame the landlord' mentality, when it is the government you should be blaming.

This is renting. The LL is perfectly entitled to move back into their house. If you want security you buy.

Or the government brings in long tenure continental style rules, which would of course result in a ton of properties being taken off the market, since the government rely on private individual landlords to provide housing