How is assessment of a 14 year old different from assessment of a 24 year old?

katydid

It was claimed in another thread that the relationship between secondary school students and their teachers, being different from the relationship between FE students and their teachers means that secondary teachers are more prone to pressure in assessing their own students.

I'm just curious what people's thoughts are on this: I don't really understand how, if an assessment is clear and unambiguous, and a teacher can stand over their mark, and has already given the student the result, they can be pressurised into changing it by anyone.

Can anyone enlighten me?

aratsarse101

Aggressive parents

katydid

aratsarse101 wrote: »

Aggressive parents

How could aggressive parents influence a mark that is out there in public on a document, already seen by the student?

Aggressive anybodies, parents, students or management, can't change a mark that is already there in the open and has been marked according to a clear system.

poster2525

Try to imagine a parent who is convinced of their own opinion, who will pursue it relentlessly, and who will not listen to reason or experienced professionals......

aratsarse101

You'd be amazed...

aratsarse101

poster2525 wrote: »

Try to imagine a parent who is convinced of their own opinion, who will pursue it relentlessly, and who will not listen to reason or experienced professionals......

Who has the ear of others, who has nothing else to do, who will threaten physical and legal action, who will shout and roar and who lives down the road.

katydid

aratsarse101 wrote: »

Who has the ear of others, who has nothing else to do, who will threaten physical and legal action, who will shout and roar and who lives down the road.

And imagine a teacher who has a watertight marking system, and can stand over their work 100%...

katydid

poster2525 wrote: »

Try to imagine a parent who is convinced of their own opinion, who will pursue it relentlessly, and who will not listen to reason or experienced professionals......

Yes, and?

What I'm actually asking is how come it's ok to use this system at third level and FE level but not at second level. If teachers in other sectors can resist pressure from demanding students and management, what is different at second level that means it wouldn't work?

I'm genuinely puzzled.

seavill

poster2525 wrote: »

Try to imagine a parent PERSON who is convinced of their own opinion, who will pursue it relentlessly, and who will not listen to reason or experienced professionals......

Fixed that for you

doc_17

How is it different? One is an adult, who at that stage of their life knows all about consequence. The other is a child who does not.

Mardy Bum

katydid wrote: »

Yes, and?

What I'm actually asking is how come it's ok to use this system at third level and FE level but not at second level. If teachers in other sectors can resist pressure from demanding students and management, what is different at second level that means it wouldn't work?

I'm genuinely puzzled.

The English system is the perfect example for this question and I have heard from three separate teachers teaching in NI and England about changing of grades and the creation of grades out of thin air. Now this is anecdotal but I'd say it is only the tip of the iceberg.

km79

Come back enda all is forgiven

katydid

doc_17 wrote: »

How is it different? One is an adult, who at that stage of their life knows all about consequence. The other is a child who does not.

What has that got to do with a teacher being objective and resisting pressure? What has it got to do with a student understanding that their teacher is fair and has marked their work objectively?

Surely that principle applies at four or fourteen or twenty four?

katydid

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The English system is the perfect example for this question and I have heard from three separate teachers teaching in NI and England about changing of grades and the creation of grades out of thin air. Now this is anecdotal but I'd say it is only the tip of the iceberg.

No, it's not anecdotal. I've worked that system in the UK. The students are given chances to re-submit work, and the teachers are expected to regrade it. It's a terrible system.

We don't have to copy the English.

evolving_doors

Not so easy to say no to a Principal when you are part time/sub.

I work in a fee paying school and some (very few I must emphasise) are of the opinion that they pay enough money to tell you what to do...(5k is nothing in comparison to creche fees if you ask me!) there have been a few occasions where decisions made by teachers have been 'overturned' when the berating and fist thumping begins. (In saying that there have been other times where parents have been told to run and jump too).

Also there is the constant threat of pulling the student out and sending them post haste to another school (we're a couple of students away from loosing a teaching post).

By virtue of the socio economic background some parents feel they are more qualified (as is evidenced by the letters after their name in a handwritten letter questioning your teaching and grades given). Maybe not on the first occasion but on the next occasion you have to wonder if you really want to enter into this tirade (esp. if it's a borderline grade).

Being accosted in the carpark happens the odd time! Being summonsed to have an impromptu meeting with the parent at any time of the day (even during your class time).

honestly... explaining to a disgruntled parent the intricacies of your grading system is a waste of time.

The students are teenagers, and some (believe it or not!) think people are out to get them. Any grade you give them can be put down to 'obviously she has it in for me'.. or 'the other class are way better and we got the bad teacher' and back to the parents it goes.

On foot of the recent strike (and pupils asking me what is going on) I've asked about 130 students in total "would you prefer junior cert style anonymous correcting OR your own teacher to grade your exam/project/practical work?". The result was unanimous laughter ... straight away they turned to each other and listed the teachers who 'had it in for them'. You may well say that this doesn;t matter but consider for a moment the corollary that they have such faith in the anonymity of the current JC system.

Similarly I heard a parent on the radio saying that his daughter got the kick up the backside she needed (his words) after the junior cert. She was always claiming that a teacher had it in for her so didn't do a tap ...(all her friends got on fine).

I've spoken to 3 teachers who have returned from the UK system and because the pay increment is linked to 'performance' and ofsted results then grades are adjusted and tests 'resat' on 'advice' from their superiors. One teacher pointed out that this 'outside moderation' will undermine your own independent professionalism as the outside moderators can only mean that grades may need to be adjusted, (despite your protests) once this anomaly is there then the pressure is on you to avoid this. Also given that the FG manifesto is to publish all school results then grades are well on their way to being open to question (particularly in the case of school based certification).

I've taught LC and adults also.. totally different kettle of fish. Big difference between a 13yr old (when 1st JCSA examining is to be done in 2nd year) and a 17-18 yr old.

doc_17

Bye bye

katydid

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Not so easy to say no to a Principal when you are part time/sub.

I work in a fee paying school and some (very few I must emphasise) are of the opinion that they pay enough money to tell you what to do...(5k is nothing in comparison to creche fees if you ask me!) there have been a few occasions where decisions made by teachers have been 'overturned' when the berating and fist thumping begins. (In saying that there have been other times where parents have been told to run and jump too).

Also there is the constant threat of pulling the student out and sending them post haste to another school (we're a couple of students away from loosing a teaching post).

By virtue of the socio economic background some parents feel they are more qualified (as is evidenced by the letters after their name in a handwritten letter questioning your teaching and grades given). Maybe not on the first occasion but on the next occasion you have to wonder if you really want to enter into this tirade (esp. if it's a borderline grade).

Being accosted in the carpark happens the odd time! Being summonsed to have an impromptu meeting with the parent at any time of the day (even during your class time).

honestly... explaining to a disgruntled parent the intricacies of your grading system is a waste of time.

The students are teenagers, and some (believe it or not!) think people are out to get them. Any grade you give them can be put down to 'obviously she has it in for me'.. or 'the other class are way better and we got the bad teacher' and back to the parents it goes.

On foot of the recent strike (and pupils asking me what is going on) I've asked about 130 students in total "would you prefer junior cert style anonymous correcting OR your own teacher to grade your exam/project/practical work?". The result was unanimous laughter ... straight away they turned to each other and listed the teachers who 'had it in for them'.

Similarly I heard a parent on the radio saying that his daughter got the kick up the backside she needed (his words) after the junior cert. She was always claiming that a teacher had it in for her so didn't do a tap ...(all her friends got on fine).

I've spoken to 3 teachers who have returned from the UK system and because the pay increment is linked to 'performance' and ofsted results then grades are adjusted and tests 'resat' on 'advice' from their superiors. One teacher pointed out that this 'outside moderation' will undermine your own independent professionalism as the outside moderators can only mean that grades may need to be adjusted, (despite your protests) once this anomaly is there then the pressure is on you to avoid this. Also given that the FG manifesto is to publish all school results then grades are well on their way to being open to question (particularly in the case of school based certification).

I've taught LC and adults also.. totally different kettle of fish. Big difference between a 13yr old (when 1st JCSA examining is to be done in 2nd year) and a 17-18 yr old.

I understand all of that. My point is, however, that if you have a system where the marks are transparent and patently fair, and are documented, and have been given to the student, how is a fourteen year old less capable of grasping the fairness of this than a twenty four year old?

Four year olds understand and respect fairness. Fourteen year olds do too. The relationship between teacher and students doesn't affect this fact.

seavill

I have had 2 cases where I was presurised by a principal not on a marking scheme but on issues with the State exams. One case was where a student wanted to hand up something after the state exams deadline, I refused to accept it. I was called into several meetings with principal, one with parents crying in the office, a third with the kid crying in the office, ruining their life and LC etc. etc. etc. "sure its only one day" blah blah blah. I wasn't permanent. I would consider myself to be the most strong willed of the staff young or old but still was under huge pressure.

The second case was where two briefs were copied word for word for the LC. I copped it before the examiner came in (different school by the way). I brought it to the attention of the principal, cheating on state exams as far as I was concerned. Again pressure "we are after getting X this far why would you ruin everything for them now" etc. etc. etc. Again meetings with the parents and kid, these parents I knew from outside of school but what they didn't call me in this instance wasn't worth saying. The principal wanted me to allow them one night to make a new brief and just bin the copied one. This was 6 weeks after the deadline. The eventual compromise I came to was I allowed them to take out the copied pages which was 3/4 of the whole thing and just leave in the pages that were unique. I was all for reporting the cheating but I was prressured into it. Now in fairness I stood my ground more than most would have in my position but I still gave in to a certain extent.

In relation to marking scheme, the class teacher corrects LC Construction Studies project before and external person comes in. There used to be 5 headings with 3 sub headings in each. Each worth 30 marks. Now I could break up the 30 marks whatever way I wanted to suit the marks, the examiner could come in and do it a different way to suit him. We could both justify different marks for the same thing. Last year they got rid of all the sub headings so for a 25% of the major state exam the LC (never mind the JC) they now have 5 broad headings worth 30 marks each. I have a marking scheme to follow from the SEC but I can fiddle that whatever way I choose in reality and argue whatever I want if questioned. For one heading I can give 15 marks someoneo else can give 20 who knows whos right cause its so broad. If this is how we do assessment for the biggest state exam how good a job are we going to do for the JC. The people up high will admit that they have broad headings becuase it suits that they can fix it whatever way suits if they have it very specific it narrows down the options

seavill

katydid wrote: »

I understand all of that. My point is, however, that if you have a system where the marks are transparent and patently fair, and are documented, and have been given to the student, how is a fourteen year old less capable of grasping the fairness of this than a twenty four year old?

Four year olds understand and respect fairness. Fourteen year olds do too. The relationship between teacher and students doesn't affect this fact.

Some people just have trouble grasping what is being said to them no matter how many times it is said

evolving_doors

seavill wrote: »

I have had 2 cases where I was presurised by a principal not on a marking scheme but on issues with the State exams. One case was where a student wanted to hand up something after the state exams deadline, I refused to accept it. I was called into several meetings with principal, one with parents crying in the office, a third with the kid crying in the office, ruining their life and LC etc. etc. etc. "sure its only one day" blah blah blah. I wasn't permanent. I would consider myself to be the most strong willed of the staff young or old but still was under huge pressure.

The second case was where two briefs were copied word for word for the LC. I copped it before the examiner came in (different school by the way). I brought it to the attention of the principal, cheating on state exams as far as I was concerned. Again pressure "we are after getting X this far why would you ruin everything for them now" etc. etc. etc. Again meetings with the parents and kid, these parents I knew from outside of school but what they didn't call me in this instance wasn't worth saying. The principal wanted me to allow them one night to make a new brief and just bin the copied one. This was 6 weeks after the deadline. The eventual compromise I came to was I allowed them to take out the copied pages which was 3/4 of the whole thing and just leave in the pages that were unique. I was all for reporting the cheating but I was prressured into it. Now in fairness I stood my ground more than most would have in my position but I still gave in to a certain extent.

In relation to marking scheme, the class teacher corrects LC Construction Studies project before and external person comes in. There used to be 5 headings with 3 sub headings in each. Each worth 30 marks. Now I could break up the 30 marks whatever way I wanted to suit the marks, the examiner could come in and do it a different way to suit him. We could both justify different marks for the same thing. Last year they got rid of all the sub headings so for a 25% of the major state exam the LC (never mind the JC) they now have 5 broad headings worth 30 marks each. I have a marking scheme to follow from the SEC but I can fiddle that whatever way I choose in reality and argue whatever I want if questioned. For one heading I can give 15 marks someoneo else can give 20 who knows whos right cause its so broad. If this is how we do assessment for the biggest state exam how good a job are we going to do for the JC. The people up high will admit that they have broad headings becuase it suits that they can fix it whatever way suits if they have it very specific it narrows down the options

But surely in a perfect world the students 'understand and respect fairness'.:pac::pac::pac:

seavill

Gebgbegb wrote: »

But surely in a perfect world the students 'understand and respect fairness'.:pac::pac::pac:

To be honest I think the kids understood more than the parents and the two principals did

katydid

seavill wrote: »

I have had 2 cases where I was presurised by a principal not on a marking scheme but on issues with the State exams. One case was where a student wanted to hand up something after the state exams deadline, I refused to accept it. I was called into several meetings with principal, one with parents crying in the office, a third with the kid crying in the office, ruining their life and LC etc. etc. etc. "sure its only one day" blah blah blah. I wasn't permanent. I would consider myself to be the most strong willed of the staff young or old but still was under huge pressure.

The second case was where two briefs were copied word for word for the LC. I copped it before the examiner came in (different school by the way). I brought it to the attention of the principal, cheating on state exams as far as I was concerned. Again pressure "we are after getting X this far why would you ruin everything for them now" etc. etc. etc. Again meetings with the parents and kid, these parents I knew from outside of school but what they didn't call me in this instance wasn't worth saying. The principal wanted me to allow them one night to make a new brief and just bin the copied one. This was 6 weeks after the deadline. The eventual compromise I came to was I allowed them to take out the copied pages which was 3/4 of the whole thing and just leave in the pages that were unique. I was all for reporting the cheating but I was prressured into it. Now in fairness I stood my ground more than most would have in my position but I still gave in to a certain extent.

In relation to marking scheme, the class teacher corrects LC Construction Studies project before and external person comes in. There used to be 5 headings with 3 sub headings in each. Each worth 30 marks. Now I could break up the 30 marks whatever way I wanted to suit the marks, the examiner could come in and do it a different way to suit him. We could both justify different marks for the same thing. Last year they got rid of all the sub headings so for a 25% of the major state exam the LC (never mind the JC) they now have 5 broad headings worth 30 marks each. I have a marking scheme to follow from the SEC but I can fiddle that whatever way I choose in reality and argue whatever I want if questioned. For one heading I can give 15 marks someoneo else can give 20 who knows whos right cause its so broad. If this is how we do assessment for the biggest state exam how good a job are we going to do for the JC. The people up high will admit that they have broad headings becuase it suits that they can fix it whatever way suits if they have it very specific it narrows down the options

I do understand these pressures, but the bottom line is that if the system is set up properly it doesn't come to parents or student crying in the principal's office, because the principal doesn't have a choice but to back their staff, because the paperwork is there, and can't be undone.

There is often room within marking schemes for teachers to make their own sub-marks. That's fine. It's not the job of the extern to question that just because they do it differently, it's their job to show that the marking scheme was followed, and that the marking was fair.

katydid

seavill wrote: »

Some people just have trouble grasping what is being said to them no matter how many times it is said

First it has to be said.

seavill

katydid wrote: »

I do understand these pressures, but the bottom line is that if the system is set up properly it doesn't come to parents or student crying in the principal's office, because the principal doesn't have a choice but to back their staff, because the paperwork is there, and can't be undone.

There is often room within marking schemes for teachers to make their own sub-marks. That's fine. It's not the job of the extern to question that just because they do it differently, it's their job to show that the marking scheme was followed, and that the marking was fair.

I'd swear you didn't even read my post before replying.

What better system than the LC with all official documents and structures. The paperwork, the SEC official dates, the leaving cert all there to back me up but parents and more importantly the principal putting me under extreme pressure to cheat for these two students.

Are you just being obtuse for the sake of it or what. You are saying there can't be pressure if there is a system. I've given you two examples where there is a system ,the leaving cert, where I was out under extreme pressure yet you won't accept it happens.

In the last part you are contradicting your own points. If the marking scheme is done right there can't be an argument. I have given you an example where the marks under one marking scheme can be made to suit whatever I want and changed after if I so choose. Yet you acknowledge that sure there can be leeway. Which one is it.

Oh and by the way I think you have missed the irony in a few posts

katydid

seavill wrote: »

I'd swear you didn't even read my post before replying.

What better system than the LC with all official documents and structures. The paperwork, the SEC official dates, the leaving cert all there to back me up but parents and more importantly the principal putting me under extreme pressure to cheat for these two students.

Are you just being obtuse for the sake of it or what. You are saying there can't be pressure if there is a system. I've given you two examples where there is a system ,the leaving cert, where I was out under extreme pressure yet you won't accept it happens.

In the last part you are contradicting your own points. If the marking scheme is done right there can't be an argument. I have given you an example where the marks under one marking scheme can be made to suit whatever I want and changed after if I so choose. Yet you acknowledge that sure there can be leeway. Which one is it.

Oh and ny the way I thibk you have missed the irony in a few posts

Why on earth would you think I hadn't read your post, since I answered every point. Maybe you need to read my answers more carefully, as you seem to be failing to understand. No, totally misunderstanding, in some cases.

LC paperwork is great. No denying that. It is not the only reliable paperwork in the world. Any system can be designed to be clear and objective. It needs the teaching staff to sit down and devise a quality assured system.

You gave me examples of where your principal didn't back you and the system in his/her school up. The principals in both cases behaved unprofessionally. A part time/non-permanent teacher should not be hung out to dry, and wouldn't be in a proper system where there is no room for manoeuver. If there is a hand in deadline policy, the principal should state to the parents that it is simply not possible to change the deadline, because it is school policy and unfair on the students who stuck to the rules. A principal who doesn't do this is making a rod for their back and the teacher's back, as the rest of the students will soon hear about it, and then deadlines become a joke.

I certainly didn't contradict myself in pointing out that a teacher has the leeway to lay out their own marks within a set marking scheme. As long as they have clear documentation and justification for that sub-set of marks, they can't be questioned. If I break down a mark for IT skills, that is worth 10%, into five sections of 2 marks each, and clearly label each section, I have covered myself, and no extern can challenge me on it.

evolving_doors

katydid wrote: »

I do understand these pressures, but the bottom line is that if the system is set up properly it doesn't come to parents or student crying in the principal's office, because the principal doesn't have a choice but to back their staff, because the paperwork is there, and can't be undone.

There is often room within marking schemes for teachers to make their own sub-marks. That's fine. It's not the job of the extern to question that just because they do it differently, it's their job to show that the marking scheme was followed, and that the marking was fair.

That's a big if.

Look at the pathetic roll out of JC english (compared to the years of piloting and phasing in of Project maths and umpteen inservices (and ongoing inservices still being provided) ).

It's nothing short of a joke... and a bad one at that.

IF only Ireland were not Ireland.

seavill

katydid wrote: »

Why on earth would you think I hadn't read your post, since I answered every point. Maybe you need to read my answers more carefully, as you seem to be failing to understand. No, totally misunderstanding, in some cases.

LC paperwork is great. No denying that. It is not the only reliable paperwork in the world. Any system can be designed to be clear and objective. It needs the teaching staff to sit down and devise a quality assured system.

You gave me examples of where your principal didn't back you and the system in his/her school up. The principals in both cases behaved unprofessionally. A part time/non-permanent teacher should not be hung out to dry, and wouldn't be in a proper system where there is no room for manoeuver. If there is a hand in deadline policy, the principal should state to the parents that it is simply not possible to change the deadline, because it is school policy and unfair on the students who stuck to the rules. A principal who doesn't do this is making a rod for their back and the teacher's back, as the rest of the students will soon hear about it, and then deadlines become a joke.

I certainly didn't contradict myself in pointing out that a teacher has the leeway to lay out their own marks within a set marking scheme. As long as they have clear documentation and justification for that sub-set of marks, they can't be questioned. If I break down a mark for IT skills, that is worth 10%, into five sections of 2 marks each, and clearly label each section, I have covered myself, and no extern can challenge me on it.

I'm dizzy from all the circles we keep going around in.

It's as simple as this. You said people can't be put under pressure. They can. I have been. As have probably hundreds of others over the years. You say it can't happen in a perfect system. The LC is as close to perfect as we will get and it still happened.

You ask what the difference is. That is the difference. The 24 year old won't have the parents in the door like I did. The principal or coordinator of the 24 year old in that case will just say tough look. Not the same outlook for LC or jc.

poster2525

seavill wrote: »

Fixed that for you

I know - I actually regretted using that word!!

implausible

I teach both mainstream and FETAC and there is a world of a difference - the 14 year old is far more likely to take a mark personally, to feel that the world revolves around them and that a teacher has nothing better to do than annoy him. At 24, you know better.

With 14 year olds your job is not simply educating, it's disciplining and you're in loco parentis which is not the case with the 24 year old whose learning you are facilitating.

With PLCs, the consequences of missing deadlines are borne by the learner; in mainstream you are reporting to parents.

We have to teach ALL 14 year olds. The 24 year olds I tutor are the ones who've chosen to be there.

I don't know if I can put it any simpler.

katydid

implausible wrote: »

I teach both mainstream and FETAC and there is a world of a difference - the 14 year old is far more likely to take a mark personally, to feel that the world revolves around them and that a teacher has nothing better to do than annoy him. At 24, you know better.

With 14 year olds your job is not simply educating, it's disciplining and you're in loco parentis which is not the case with the 24 year old whose learning you are facilitating.

With PLCs, the consequences of missing deadlines are borne by the learner; in mainstream you are reporting to parents.

We have to teach ALL 14 year olds. The 24 year olds I tutor are the ones who've chosen to be there.

I don't know if I can put it any simpler.

So a fourteen year old has to learn NOT to take a mark personally. What is school for other than to teach people to live in the real world? I'm astonished that the hurt feelings of a fourteen year old would be a measure of whether or not a teacher could mark objectively. What about Christmas and summer tests, weekly tests? Do you take the feelings of the students into account then?

You are reporting to parents at second level. So? You report that Johnny didn't hand in his work on time and so didn't get a grade. Johnny will have to learn to explain to his parents why he didn't get himself organized.

Back to lifeskills.

katydid

seavill wrote: »

I'm dizzy from all the circles we keep going around in.

It's as simple as this. You said people can't be put under pressure. They can. I have been. As have probably hundreds of others over the years. You say it can't happen in a perfect system. The LC is as close to perfect as we will get and it still happened.

You ask what the difference is. That is the difference. The 24 year old won't have the parents in the door like I did. The principal or coordinator of the 24 year old in that case will just say tough look. Not the same outlook for LC or jc.

What I said was that you can't put people under pressure IF there is a system in place that ensures that the grades they give are transparent and not open to negotiation.

Can you explain why having the parents at the door is a problem? They are adults, presumably they can understand if you tell them that you are a professional and have operated in a professional manner? Are you afraid of them?

katydid

Gebgbegb wrote: »

That's a big if.

Look at the pathetic roll out of JC english (compared to the years of piloting and phasing in of Project maths and umpteen inservices (and ongoing inservices still being provided) ).

It's nothing short of a joke... and a bad one at that.

IF only Ireland were not Ireland.

No, it's not a big IF. It is how it already operates in other sectors.

I agree that the system as it stands now isn't fit for purpose and that such a system can only operate with proper planning and resources, which means time and money.

It's the general principle I'm wondering about. IF the system in place, why can't fourteen year olds accept a fair and transparent assessment?

seavill

katydid wrote: »

What I said was that you can't put people under pressure IF there is a system in place that ensures that the grades they give are transparent and not open to negotiation.

Can you explain why having the parents at the door is a problem? They are adults, presumably they can understand if you tell them that you are a professional and have operated in a professional manner? Are you afraid of them?

Yes and what I have said REPEATEDLY is that there is a proper system, transparent etc. in place its called the leaving cert and despite that parents, kids and the principal still think it is open to negotiation. I don't understand what you don't get about that? Rather than repeating the same statement can you explain what is not clear about the above.

Why the parents at the door is a problem? Because they abused me. They put me under pressure to break rules set by the SEC. They don't care about rules in that situation they want you to break them to suit themselves. They then badmouthed me publicly around my local area for refusing to help their son. Yes sounds mad but it was their perception of the situation. That is why it is a problem.

No I am not afraid of them but I'm different to most other young teachers. I have told you I stood up for myself and refused to break the rules but I would be unique in being willing to stand up to a principal in my first year. I didn't care if the principal got rid of me. Most people need the job thye are in they have to hold onto every minute they get or else they will be replaced by some principals.

Your idea of 'sure principals wont put people under pressure and sure parents are adults they will understand that you followed the rules' is a grand idea, however as I and others have said its not how it works in the real world people are unique and will defend themselves and their offspring at all costs when it suits themselves regardless of rules within what is a well structured system one you will find hard to beat in any other places (the LC). This is the reality of the situation no matter how many times you type the same sentences over and over and over here it doesn't change what the reality is on the ground. Just like you would presume that the parents would accept what I say as a professional will you do us all the courtesy and do the same and accept what we say as to what actually happens in schools up and down the country year in year out

Chilli Con Kearney

I have been watching this forum grow with great interest. Katy, I admire your hope and optimism in parents, pupils, education partners and humanity in general. But I feel that you are not appreciating the reality on the ground in second level schools as it is stands 2015.

If we bring it back to your original question, dealing with the difference of assessing 14 and 24 year olds, there are so many reasons why it is indeed different. These include:

1. 14 year olds are in school not by choice but because that is what 14 year olds do. They do not know any different. Consequently, many 14 year olds do not have as much buy in or personal responsibility as 24 year olds who decide to study.

2. They are 14 years old. They do not fully understand the repercussions of all decisions at this stage. If they decide not to study, the long term effects of this are not realised. They do not have the capacity to recognise this and it mostly comes with maturity.

3. Asking students to take responsibility for their own work, engage in active research and continuous assessment is actually going against the grain of greater society. Parents are wrapping their children in cotton wool more than ever. Despite technological advances, etc. they have less independence and autonomy and consequently depend more on their parents. I know TY students (not just one or two) who have never gotten the bus before, never cooked a meal, fifth year students whose Mams cuts the meat on their dinner plates, sixth year students who live less than a mile from school and get picked up every day. Yet we want them to take more responsibility for their education??! Seriously?!

4. Parents are more demanding of teachers and schools than ever before. Some degrade teachers (or the profession as you call it - questionable to say the least but anyhow) openly to their faces and to the students too. Common expectations from parents appear to be that students will get As in the JC, 400+ points in the LC and if they don't then the problem lies with the teachers. (I have no issue with demanding a good education for our children but we have to parents must be realistic about the stakeholders, their roles and the abilities of those too).

I could go on and on, but the reality is that it simply is different. I have followed your posts in the old thread and this one now and respect that you don't believe assessing 14 year olds is different to assessing 24 year olds. Unfortunately I have to tell you it is, no matter how many questions you ask, or scenarios you put forward, dealing with 14 year olds will always be different to dealing with those 10 years their senior. 10 years. Not just in assessment but in most walks of life.

katydid

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

I have been watching this forum grow with great interest. Katy, I admire your hope and optimism in parents, pupils, education partners and humanity in general. But I feel that you are not appreciating the reality on the ground in second level schools as it is stands 2015.

If we bring it back to your original question, dealing with the difference of assessing 14 and 24 year olds, there are so many reasons why it is indeed different. These include:

1. 14 year olds are in school not by choice but because that is what 14 year olds do. They do not know any different. Consequently, many 14 year olds do not have as much buy in or personal responsibility as 24 year olds who decide to study.

2. They are 14 years old. They do not fully understand the repercussions of all decisions at this stage. If they decide not to study, the long term effects of this are not realised. They do not have the capacity to recognise this and it mostly comes with maturity.

3. Asking students to take responsibility for their own work, engage in active research and continuous assessment is actually going against the grain of greater society. Parents are wrapping their children in cotton wool more than ever. Despite technological advances, etc. they have less independence and autonomy and consequently depend more on their parents. I know TY students (not just one or two) who have never gotten the bus before, never cooked a meal, fifth year students whose Mams cuts the meat on their dinner plates, sixth year students who live less than a mile from school and get picked up every day. Yet we want them to take more responsibility for their education??! Seriously?!

4. Parents are more demanding of teachers and schools than ever before. Some degrade teachers (or the profession as you call it - questionable to say the least but anyhow) openly to their faces and to the students too. Common expectations from parents appear to be that students will get As in the JC, 400+ points in the LC and if they don't then the problem lies with the teachers. (I have no issue with demanding a good education for our children but we have to parents must be realistic about the stakeholders, their roles and the abilities of those too).

I could go on and on, but the reality is that it simply is different. I have followed your posts in the old thread and this one now and respect that you don't believe assessing 14 year olds is different to assessing 24 year olds. Unfortunately I have to tell you it is, no matter how many questions you ask, or scenarios you put forward, dealing with 14 year olds will always be different to dealing with those 10 years their senior. 10 years. Not just in assessment but in most walks of life.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'll take your points one by one, if you don't mind.

1. Fourteen year olds may not be voluntarily in education, but I don't really understand how that lets them off the hook in terms of accepting responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Surely learning this is part of the education system. It may be harder for them to understand, but surely not impossible. Teachers mark their work all the time, at Christmas, at Easter, every week, and they accept those marks. If they can see that an assessment is carried out fairly, and see exactly where they got and lost marks, why would they not accept that? And if they couldn't accept that, why is that a problem? There are things in life one has to learn to accept...

2. Not understanding the repercussions of not studying applies equally to studying for state exams.

3. Surely because young people might be more protected and mollycoddled by their parents and society is all the more reasons for schools to encourage self reliance and the taking of responsibility. Not just at second level, but right from the beginning of primary school. Again I come back to the role of a school in preparing a young person for life.

4. Parents may be demanding of teachers but teachers are professionals who should have the self confidence and the professionalism to stand up to parents.

I have never suggested that 14 year olds are the same as 24 year olds. They obviously have different needs and demands. However, the principle of fairness and transparency in assessment are the same, and 14 year olds have an understanding of fairness and transparency. They may react more emotionally to things and be less able to see the consequences, but that's part of the learning process. Nothing I have seen here has convinced me that assessment procedures should be compromised in order to take account of their emotions. And certainly not of the feelings of their parents.

katydid

seavill wrote: »

Yes and what I have said REPEATEDLY is that there is a proper system, transparent etc. in place its called the leaving cert and despite that parents, kids and the principal still think it is open to negotiation. I don't understand what you don't get about that? Rather than repeating the same statement can you explain what is not clear about the above.

Why the parents at the door is a problem? Because they abused me. They put me under pressure to break rules set by the SEC. They don't care about rules in that situation they want you to break them to suit themselves. They then badmouthed me publicly around my local area for refusing to help their son. Yes sounds mad but it was their perception of the situation. That is why it is a problem.

No I am not afraid of them but I'm different to most other young teachers. I have told you I stood up for myself and refused to break the rules but I would be unique in being willing to stand up to a principal in my first year. I didn't care if the principal got rid of me. Most people need the job thye are in they have to hold onto every minute they get or else they will be replaced by some principals.

Your idea of 'sure principals wont put people under pressure and sure parents are adults they will understand that you followed the rules' is a grand idea, however as I and others have said its not how it works in the real world people are unique and will defend themselves and their offspring at all costs when it suits themselves regardless of rules within what is a well structured system one you will find hard to beat in any other places (the LC). This is the reality of the situation no matter how many times you type the same sentences over and over and over here it doesn't change what the reality is on the ground. Just like you would presume that the parents would accept what I say as a professional will you do us all the courtesy and do the same and accept what we say as to what actually happens in schools up and down the country year in year out

The proper system that is the LC is fine for some people. But it is not fine for many others, who have different learning styles, or who find exams so stressful that they can't perform properly. There needs to be reform; teachers in general haven't disagreed with that; their issue is with the CA being done by the students' own teacher, not with the concept itself.

So, parents abused you. You're an adult. A professional. Deal with it. Your duty is to the young person and to the system, not to make parents happy. If the abuse turns nasty, call the Gardaí. I have had abuse from students when I refused to accept an assignment from a student, or because they were upset because of a mark I gave them, and no doubt they badmouthed me to all and sundry. But sorry, that's my job. I have to put up with that. I didn't become a teacher to be popular.

As I keep repeating, if the system is properly devised and applied, you don't have to stand up to your principal. The marking scheme, and the given mark are both documented and known to the student, and it would be clear that changing it would be both unprofessional and would undermine you as a teacher and the school itself.

People will defend themselves, that is natural. But as professionals we teachers have to defend ourselves, and stand over our work. It's that simple.

seavill

katydid wrote: »

The proper system that is the LC is fine for some people. But it is not fine for many others, who have different learning styles, or who find exams so stressful that they can't perform properly. There needs to be reform; teachers in general haven't disagreed with that; their issue is with the CA being done by the students' own teacher, not with the concept itself.

This is clearly nothing to do what we are talking about, we were talking about the system in place for deadlines etc. for the LC. Im not going to get dragged into the whole LC v JC debate nothing to do with what we were talking about.

katydid wrote: »

So, parents abused you. You're an adult. A professional. Deal with it. Your duty is to the young person and to the system, not to make parents happy. If the abuse turns nasty, call the Gardaí. I have had abuse from students when I refused to accept an assignment from a student, or because they were upset because of a mark I gave them, and no doubt they badmouthed me to all and sundry. But sorry, that's my job. I have to put up with that. I didn't become a teacher to be popular.

Where did I say I didn't deal with it. You asked me why having parents at the door is a problem. I explained to you why it is a problem because they get abusive in these situations both inside and outside of school. Now you change your argument that its some how my fault for not accepting abuse. You asked a question I answered it you changed the argument give over will you.

katydid wrote: »

As I keep repeating, if the system is properly devised and applied, you don't have to stand up to your principal. The marking scheme, and the given mark are both documented and known to the student, and it would be clear that changing it would be both unprofessional and would undermine you as a teacher and the school itself.
.

And I keep repeating we have an excellent system already in place for the LC (and I'm talking in terms of structure, deadlines, officialness etc.) and I have given you examples of how it can be abused, pressure put on people etc.
You keep saying the same things over and over and over and over and over, "sure a parent or principal can't put someone under pressure" "we can make a perfect system" "how can children not understand this or that" "how can parents not understand this or that" it doesn't make any of what you say work in reality. You asked a question at the start but you wont accept any answers people give you so why bother keep going, you dont' agree thats fair enough but going on and on and on disagreeing with everyone is going no where.

evolving_doors

This is giving me heartburn...

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