How to get higher prolificacy in lowland flocks?

4512

Have a flock of well bred texel ewes but am struggling to keep no.s of doubles/triplets up . . . any advice?

rangler1

4512 wrote: »

Have a flock of well bred texel ewes but am struggling to keep no.s of doubles/triplets up . . . any advice?

Texels by nature aren't prolific, used to have all texel here, that's why I introduced the Lleyn in to the flock, Lleyn will rise the litter size and belcare probably more so. Lleyns out of texel are nice sheep

tomwaterford

rangler1 wrote: »

Texels by nature aren't prolific, used to have all texel here, that's why I introduced the Lleyn in to the flock, Lleyn will rise the litter size and belcare probably more so. Lleyns out of texel are nice sheep

I find it wicked hard to find a nice llyn ram....nearly any I looked at were wicked narrow and no real shape to them??

Is that just the breed or should I look further into them??

rangler1

tomwaterford wrote: »

I find it wicked hard to find a nice llyn ram....nearly any I looked at were wicked narrow and no real shape to them??

Is that just the breed or should I look further into them??

Texel for the shape and Lleyn for hardiness, prolificacy, good feet, ease of lambing, I wouldn't touch them purebred, Texels seem to have an ambition to die that crossing with Lleyns reduces a lot iykwim

Future Farmer

Use a Lleyn or Belclare (not a fan) ram.

What is your replacement policy? Keeping singles?

Putting them in lamb as ewe lambs also encourages more lambs for ewes....

arctictree

I have PB Llyens and the lambs are mad to suck, even the small ones. Big difference in shape between a texel and llyen ram. Rangler1 seems to have the right advice regarding the cross and if I was going pure commercial, that's probably what I would do. 3 of my flock have lambed so far, 2 doubles and a single. I'll get a better idea of prolificacy in the next few weeks.

Willfarman

Get yourself a good half-bred Suffolk belclare ram. The ewe lambs will be the dogs proverbial of ewes. And the ram lam lambs will finish ok too. Too much belclare brings its own problems.. Also consider a vendeen ram if you don't need replacements.

Cran

Two Lleyn rams here both from the same breeder used across Mules to breed ewe lambs, both are carriers of the myomax gene and are real nice tight types. I think some Lleyns are too leggy with big rough heads and I've moved couple of these type of rams on as to hard to finish, maybe its another breeds influence in these lines but I like this breeding.

They are harder finished than the Charollais of the mule but not as far as you would think, also seem to kill well even when lacking little flesh which is a real no go with the Charollais cross Mule lambs. Lleyn society looking at FecX/twin gene I believe which would have huge potential for getting that dream of near 100% of twins.

rangler1

Cran wrote: »

Two Lleyn rams here both from the same breeder used across Mules to breed ewe lambs, both are carriers of the myomax gene and are real nice tight types. I think some Lleyns are too leggy with big rough heads and I've moved couple of these type of rams on as to hard to finish, maybe its another breeds influence in these lines but I like this breeding.

They are harder finished than the Charollais of the mule but not as far as you would think, also seem to kill well even when lacking little flesh which is a real no go with the Charollais cross Mule lambs. Lleyn society looking at FecX/twin gene I believe which would have huge potential for getting that dream of near 100% of twins.

Is it really worth chasing the Myomax gene in sheep, not really being paid for conformation in lambs. I think that muscling actually slows down growth rate. eg In cattle, charolais grow faster than Belgian Blue. The best muscled sheep in our breed are 1 and 2 star.....this is only an observation of mine, not a scientific fact

Cran

rangler1 wrote: »

Is it really worth chasing the Myomax gene in sheep, not really being paid for conformation in lambs. I think that muscling actually slows down growth rate. eg In cattle, charolais grow faster than Belgian Blue. The best muscled sheep in our breed are 1 and 2 star.....this is only an observation of mine, not a scientific fact

Fair point I think and tbh starting messing round with Gene markers couple of years ago out of interest, the myomax would be of least interest to me but I do find best muscling lambs do hit factory weights the quickest (kill out% is better).
I think gene markers offer real benefits on maternal traits such as the twin gene, cold tolerance and then other traits such as foot rot etc

eire23

Have two lleyns rams here.
Tbh i dont find the lambs hard fattened at all and had heard a lot of bad storys prior to getting them and anyone that bought ram lambs of me has being suprised with them as well.
I prefer them with a bit of shape and not to tall but they are hard to find.
Alot of the rams that are for sale shouldnt be but then again thats just my opinion.

Green farmer

eire wrote:

Alot of the rams that are for sale shouldnt be but then again thats just my opinion.

Never a truer word spoken.

4512

Willfarman wrote: »

Get yourself a good half-bred Suffolk belclare ram. The ewe lambs will be the dogs proverbial of ewes. And the ram lam lambs will finish ok too. Too much belclare brings its own problems.. Also consider a vendeen ram if you don't need replacements.

So would a good crossed ram perform aswell as a pb?

razor8

Nobody has mentioned the blue Leicester, in Roscommon they have a specialised ewe lamb sale every year and many of the farmers are crossing the blue Leicester with lowland ewes, seen some of them at ploughing and thought they looked the business

Here I cross a blue on lanark/swale ewes and have experimented in a small way with crossing them on borris and texels ewes, need to do it in a big way to have a proper opinion on it

razor8

4512 wrote: »

So would a good crossed ram perform aswell as a pb?

Would imagine that would be pot luck if it worked out or not

Willfarman

4512 wrote: »

So would a good crossed ram perform aswell as a pb?

They perform better if anything. Alls you need is a neighbour or relLative with belclare type ewes and a Suffolk ram or vice versa and and get him to keep an eye for a nice speckled twin ram lamb.

Willfarman

razor8 wrote: »

Would imagine that would be pot luck if it worked out or not

A bit of luck is required no matter what..

Bleating Lamb

I have no experience of Llyen or Belclare ewes but would think that one simple method of increasing your lamb return from any lowland flock is to keep your own replacements (bred from a ram of your choice)....but the key is to keep only twin or triplet ewe lambs when drawing off your replacements each year....it also helps if the ram you use was a twin himself.
Have mainly Cheviot ewes here,as a breed they would not traditionally be regarded as very prolific but get avg return of 1.6 or 1.7 lambs typically each yr by using above method for choosing replacements:

ganmo

A crossbred ram will preform better than the genetics he'll pass on. Hybrid vigor and all that

Willfarman

First cross belclare aren't the job. They ram lambs are hard finish and the ewe lambs have too many multiples. Dilution with Suffolk blood dilutes both effects.

Future Farmer

Future Farmer wrote: »

Use a Lleyn or Belclare (not a fan) ram. (Short term solution)

What is your replacement policy? Keeping singles? (Keep ewe lambs from multiple births)

Putting them in lamb as ewe lambs also encourages more lambs for ewes (in lifetime)

Ok I am a bit of a sado quoting myself but lads I think I am fairly right.

MayoAreMagic

ganmo wrote: »

A crossbred ram will preform better than the genetics he'll pass on. Hybrid vigor and all that

But if you cross say a Suffolk\Vendeen ram with a texel ewe, wont hybrid vigour kick in again? It is the variation in genes that does it I believe. They are still hybrids...

FutureFarmer you are right. You are a bit of a sado

ganmo

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But if you cross say a Suffolk\Vendeen ram with a texel ewe, wont hybrid vigour kick in again? It is the variation in genes that does it I believe. They are still hybrids...

FutureFarmer you are right. You are a bit of a sado

ram or ewe thats 50/50 performance lets say 25% above whats expected due to hybrid vigor

that ram mates with a ewe 100% of a third breed will have performance of approx 15-20% above expected(might be exaggerating that a bit but it won't be 25%)

the drop flattens out after the introduction of the 7th breed...but it depends how close the breeds are.

Willfarman

ganmo wrote: »

ram or ewe thats 50/50 performance lets say 25% above whats expected due to hybrid vigor

that ram mates with a ewe 100% of a third breed will have performance of approx 15-20% above expected(might be exaggerating that a bit but it won't be 25%)

the drop flattens out after the introduction of the 7th breed...but it depends how close the breeds are.

That's clear as day then.....

ganmo

Willfarman wrote: »

That's clear as day then.....

the 25% is that grey bit, and the more breeds you bring in the smaller that gets

Willfarman

I think I'm happy enough to persist with my system. Might even breed them pure now and call them bellocks!

Green farmer

Willfarman wrote: »

I think I'm happy enough to persist with my system. Might even breed them pure now and call them bellocks!

"Bellocks " sounds like a nicer version of something I've heard sheep being called on a bad day. :rolleyes:

ganmo

Green farmer wrote: »

"Bellocks " sounds like a nicer version of something I've heard sheep being called on a bad day. :rolleyes:

Not only on bad days...there's always one that finds your toes and jumps on them

Willfarman

Yes I have a pedigree bellock sheep flock lads! Put your orders in for the ram lambs now!