line breeding

tomieen jones

I have a cow that got incalf to her half brother bull! Both are purebred and highly bred I might add from same ai sire ! What are the risks or problems I might incur does anyone know? They are Angus

tanko

I've seen it happen a couple of times. It worked out grand, the quality of the calf mightn't be as good as you'd expect tho.

Bellview

i have seen the same where a the sire of a cow was put in calf to her sire and all was ok.... agree though its far from ideal

Nekarsulm

Line breeding is when the results work out OK.
If they don't, it's inbreeding..............:D

rangler1

I messed up castratrating a weanling the year before the suckler quotas were established,
so 18 of my 50 suckler quota were due to him....good result.
Everything calved perfect and throve well too

tomieen jones

I have seen myself where thrive was normal and that but as regards for breeding from i'm wondering about fertility when they are of age ?, would a inbred bull or heifer be good for breeding? Any pedigree breeders come across this

Dawggone

tomieen jones wrote: »

I have seen myself where thrive was normal and that but as regards for breeding from i'm wondering about fertility when they are of age ?, would a inbred bull or heifer be good for breeding? Any pedigree breeders come across this

There is a big difference between inbreeding and line breeding.

Any inherent genetic faults will surface with inbreeding. Not necessarily so with line breeding.
Line breeding is widely practiced but you need to know what you're at with inbreeding

onyerbikepat

Dawggone wrote: »

There is a big difference between inbreeding and line breeding.

Any inherent genetic faults will surface with inbreeding. Not necessarily so with line breeding.
Line breeding is widely practiced but you need to know what you're at with inbreeding

So what is line breeding ?

ganmo

line breeding is daughters back to the same ancestor until you nearly get a genetic clone of that ancestor

1st generation = 50% of ancestor
2nd = 75%
3rd = 87.5%
4th = 93.75
5th = closer to the original

onyerbikepat

You mean the same Sire down along? :eek:
Gross Dude!

Dawggone

onyerbikepat wrote: »

You mean the same Sire down along? :eek:
Gross Dude!

Not exactly...
Shared great grand parent at both sides...etc.

ganmo

onyerbikepat wrote: »

You mean the same Sire down along? :eek:
Gross Dude!

Yes thats my understanding of it

Arrow in the Knee

*

RightTurnClyde

ganmo wrote: »

Yes thats my understanding of it

So when the original is mated with the 4th generation, he is effectively mating with himself to produce himself......
think ya'd need the lights off for that kind of carry on.

Arrow in the Knee

From what I understand your essentially trying to perfect a trait or traits like silky hair on the head or wide shoulders at the front, etc......

The downside is that the line your breeding from would probably have some defects which your increasing the likelihood of them occuring that you don't want.

Dawggone

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

So when the original is mated with the 4th generation, he is effectively mating with himself to produce himself......
think ya'd need the lights off for that kind of carry on.

Purebreds of every breed were "invented" by inbreeding for successive generations.
Father to daughter...son to mother...brother to sister.
Morality has nothing to do with it.

Geneticists will argue that you have a "pure" line after 7 inbred generations.
Conversely if you mongrelise for 7 generations you will lose whatever you started with.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Dawggone wrote: »

Purebreds of every breed were "invented" by inbreeding for successive generations.
Father to daughter...son to mother...brother to sister.
Morality has nothing to do with it.

Geneticists will argue that you have a "pure" line after 7 inbred generations.
Conversely if you mongrelise for 7 generations you will lose whatever you started with.

Pure breeds are animals with the desirable traits for a particular range of characteristics, i thought.

For example, when they establish a herdbook like the Droimean recently or the Angus way back, animals were presented for inspection and those that passed, having the correct characteristics, were 'purebred' and entered the herdbook and the rest weren't?

Then, with a small population, breeders have to manage the matings to increase numbers and focus on more desirable traits while minimising the amount of inbreeding in the herdbook. It's easier with bigger numbers of animals in the herdbook to minimise inbreeding.

At least, that's the way i remember it.

Dawggone

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Pure breeds are animals with the desirable traits for a particular range of characteristics, i thought.

For example, when they establish a herdbook like the Droimean recently or the Angus way back, animals were presented for inspection and those that passed, having the correct characteristics, were 'purebred' and entered the herdbook and the rest weren't?

Then, with a small population, breeders have to manage the matings to increase numbers and focus on more desirable traits while minimising the amount of inbreeding in the herdbook. It's easier with bigger numbers of animals in the herdbook to minimise inbreeding.

At least, that's the way i remember it.

I'm not explaining myself properly there Sherrif.
What you're talking about there is retrieving or saving an existing breed.
I'm talking about making a new breed or line or characteristic.

Ok. Let's say we want to breed a dawg (!) with a black tail and a white body...
Find a male and female with the above and breed them...any pups with the above characteristics you then breed together (or back to the parents).
You then inbreed for 6 generations (judiciously picking the desired characteristics) and...voilà you have a new breed!

I'm over simplifying to explain the point. Many moons have passed since I studied genetics!

tomieen jones

Dawggone wrote: »

I'm not explaining myself properly there Sherrif.
What you're talking about there is retrieving or saving an existing breed.
I'm talking about making a new breed or line or characteristic.

Ok. Let's say we want to breed a dawg (!) with a black tail and a white body...
Find a male and female with the above and breed them...any pups with the above characteristics you then breed together (or back to the parents).
You then inbreed for 6 generations (judiciously picking the desired characteristics) and...voilà you have a new breed!

I'm over simplifying to explain the point. Many moons have passed since I studied genetics!

so I have bred a half brother half sister which is a 25% Coeffency ! The sire of both is a highly sought after ai bull and both dams are very well bred! Although it was an accident it could turn out very favourable?

Kovu

tomieen jones wrote: »

so I have bred a half brother half sister which is a 25% Coeffency ! The sire of both is a highly sought after ai bull and both dams are very well bred! Although it was an accident it could turn out very favourable?

I don't think it would be very favourable in the sales tbh, so maybe hope for a heifer calf that you could keep!

Dawggone

tomieen jones wrote: »

so I have bred a half brother half sister which is a 25% Coeffency ! The sire of both is a highly sought after ai bull and both dams are very well bred! Although it was an accident it could turn out very favourable?

Yes it could turn out favourably...if there is no undesirable characteristics in the ai bull...and to a lesser extinct the well bred dams.

ganmo

tomieen jones wrote: »

so I have bred a half brother half sister which is a 25% Coeffency ! The sire of both is a highly sought after ai bull and both dams are very well bred! Although it was an accident it could turn out very favourable?

On paper maybe...but it also exaggerates negatives which is where inbreeding gains it's bad rep

All Belgian blue double muscled animals have them same ancestor

tomieen jones

Kovu wrote: »

I don't think it would be very favourable in the sales tbh, so maybe hope for a heifer calf that you could keep!

Well actually she is a heifer and was very small but seems to have sprung up fantastic over the winter and is a yearling now! , really its her temperament I like and she Carries herself well! I intend keeping her and was wondering as I know nothing about line breeding could she have fertility problems but its a wait to see I guess