Battery question..

Zascar

So I have not used my bike since December and unsurprisingly the battery is dead. I'm going to take it out tonight and charge it, but someone said to me that the battery is probably goosed and I'll need a new one. I'm told it's a ytz10s battery. I'll charge it and see but what do you think?

Heathen

Inspect the battery visually before charging to see has the shape changed in any way, i took mine out to charge it a few weeks ago and discovered one of the cells was knackered and was bulging out the back and front of the batter a little... battery was brown bread, was not holding a charge at all... so i got a new one and all is good...

H

CJhaughey

If it has died from lack of use and undercharging thats OK, if its started to bulge it could a problem with the charging system, check your reg/rec and make sure its not overcharging the battery.

Zascar

Got it out last night, seems fine. Charged it and the light was green this morning so I'll see how it goes tonight. Fingers crossed I wont have to buy a new one, they are €100!

Wonda-Boy

Depends also if its liquid or gel, some batteries go so low they cant recover. Id say you be okay....trickle charger FTW!

landmarkjohn

I leave a charger connected to my battery with a plug in timer. I set it to come on about 3 times a week for an hour. Battery has held up for the last couple of years on a bike that gets used about 6 times a year. Of course this only available if you have power source where you park the bike.

Zascar

Unfortunately I park in an underground car park with no power sockets anywhere near the bike. In fairness this is the first time I've ever had a problem with the bike - an unsurprisingly since I have not used it in almost 3 months.

Wonda-Boy

Zascar wrote: »

I have not used it in almost 3 months.

O THE SHAME!!!! :rolleyes:

Cienciano

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

O THE SHAME!!!! :rolleyes:

I reckon he should lose his mod status for admitting that!

I always make sure I use my bike at least once every 2-3 weeks over winter, starts fine every time.
Actually, used it today and wasn't sure how much petrol was in it, so filled up. It took €3.45 worth! Person behind the counter was laughing at me for putting in such a shítty little amount!

Hotblack Desiato

Do you not either have a fuel gauge, or zero the trip meter when you fill up Cienciano?

OP if the battery was in reasonable shape and not too old before you left it it's probably ok, but you might have shortened its life a bit. If it was on its last legs, then this sort of thing could finish it off. Batteries can let you down without warning, which happened to me last year (bike was in daily use, stopped for petrol on the way home and it just wouldn't restart) but it was 7 years old at the time which isn't too bad. The wife's car is 11 years old and still on the original battery as far as we can make out (the car was 3 years old when we bought it, and I doubt anyone in Ireland fits Panasonic car batteries)

Cienciano

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Do you not either have a fuel gauge, or zero the trip meter when you fill up Cienciano?

A trip meter which I keep forgetting to set unless I'm going on a long run

Zascar

So lads a quick update. Last week I took the battery out and charged it. I put it back in and it started fine. Used the bike the next day, no bother. Then on Saturday I was giving the bike a bit of a clean, oiling the chain, topping up the oil etc. It started fine and I let it run for a few mins, then put everything away. Happy days, battery is fine - I thought. But of course this morning I went to ride it to work and it would not start, it lazily chugged but would not properly kick in. Balls.

I find it a bit strange that it did that. What do you think? Is the battery goosed? Should I bother trying to charge it again or just get a new battery?

Cuddlesworth

Zascar wrote: »

I find it a bit strange that it did that. What do you think? Is the battery goosed? Should I bother trying to charge it again or just get a new battery?

Something about the chemical reaction in the sulphuric water when it gets depleted changes the composition of it, which leads to low temperatures freezing the liquid. After cells freeze they are dead. In cold weather normally a new battery can lose nearly a third of its capacity even without freezing while the cells are cold.

I know the feeling. I goosed a battery myself doing the exact same thing. It was cold and I used the car for 3 months.

Zascar

Yeah Id say its degraded, maybe I could get away with it but I HATE having battery issues so I think I'll get a new one. I dont have time to get out of work, but I found one from an Irish retailer here: http://www.motorcycleshop.ie/yuasa-ytz10s-1583-p.asp - are these guys any good? I saw them at the bike show actually. Decent price, better than the Uk shops as far as I can see!

Cuddlesworth

I picked up some servicing stuff from them recently, took a day or 2 to actually ship but otherwise they were good.

Wonda-Boy

Zascar wrote: »

So lads a quick update. Last week I took the battery out and charged it. I put it back in and it started fine. Used the bike the next day, no bother. Then on Saturday I was giving the bike a bit of a clean, oiling the chain, topping up the oil etc. It started fine and I let it run for a few mins, then put everything away. Happy days, battery is fine - I thought. But of course this morning I went to ride it to work and it would not start, it lazily chugged but would not properly kick in. Balls.

I find it a bit strange that it did that. What do you think? Is the battery goosed? Should I bother trying to charge it again or just get a new battery?

Battery was charged enough to start the bike, then you let it run for a few mins and it was draining. You need to ride the bike for the altenator to charge the battery properly. If you started it a rode for a few hours it would have started this morning.

Cuddlesworth

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Battery was charged enough to start the bike, then you let it run for a few mins and it was draining. You need to ride the bike for the altenator to charge the battery properly. If you started it a rode for a few hours it would have started this morning.

He had charged it to full and it had lost enough charge in a week to not turn the starter. What good will driving it do?

Hotblack Desiato

I got my last battery from motorcycleshop.ie - they supplied it filled and charged (although I would have been happy to do that myself) and delivery was quick

Unlikely the battery actually froze especially if it was in a shed. But the plates start to develop a coating of sulphate when they get completely flat, this reduces the capacity of the battery permanently. Cold weather reduces the current a battery can put out but that is only temporary, but it explains why a cold morning often causes a starting problem.

This is probably just a worn out battery, but it would be worth checking to see if there is anything draining the battery when the ignition is off - is there an alarm on the bike?

Wonda-Boy

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

He had charged it to full and it had lost enough charge in a week to not turn the starter. What good will driving it do?

Did not know he charged it up fully, I taught he charged it for a few hrs only. Hence why I said it was charged enough to turn it over.

Battery clearly is not holding the charge. Hopefully its not the reg/rec, coz if he buys a new battery it will go the same way.

CJhaughey

If you buy a new dry battery with the acid pack do not just fill it and fit and ride away.
If you do the lifespan will be greatly reduced.
Fill with acid, tapping the battery to make sure all bubbles have risen off the plates.
Leave it for minimum 2 preferably 6hrs or overnight then charge at 1 amp till its fully charged.
The plates need to form and filling and starting will damage the formation of the plates.
Anyone with a motorcycle should have a charger that charges at a rate suitable for small motorcycle batteries ie 1amp

Wossack

as above, follow the filling instructions to the letter! first charge with cap loosely on etc

Fabritzo

Try Global Distributors in Santry (01)8623438 think I got a Unibat off them before

Zascar

So I got on the guys in Battery world as they are near my work. They have a standard sealed Yuasa at €70 and then some type of Gel battery at €50 - he said it even has a higher cranking ampage. What's better?

blade1

Zascar wrote: »

So I got on the guys in Battery world as they are near my work. They have a standard sealed Yuasa at €70 and then some type of Gel battery at €50 - he said it even has a higher cranking ampage. What's better?

Get the strongest one possible that will fit.
I have just swapped a 12 for a 14 in the Aprilia.
I am also swapping the puny 50 amp solenoid for a 150 amp one.

CJhaughey

Zascar wrote: »

So I got on the guys in Battery world as they are near my work. They have a standard sealed Yuasa at €70 and then some type of Gel battery at €50 - he said it even has a higher cranking ampage. What's better?

Is it a Motobatt yellow case?
They are good batteries.
I would also look at uprating the battery if you can, many bikes can fit bigger amperage batteries in place of the stock one.
Honda Deauvilles have a YTZ9 you can fit a YTZ14 in place as its the same dimensions length x width but 40mm taller and instead of 9Ah its 11.2 AH

Hotblack Desiato

Americans get very hung up on 'cold cranking amps' but there is no standardised measurement of this so it's meaningless really.

Kevin McCloud

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Americans get very hung up on 'cold cranking amps' but there is no standardised measurement of this so it's meaningless really.

What do you mean by there is no standarisied measurement?

Hotblack Desiato

It means what it says. It's like watts on an amplifier, manufacturers put down whatever meaningless figure they like for marketing purposes

Amp-hour capacity of the battery is a standardised measurement though.

Kevin McCloud

cca is not a meaningless figure, they just dont pull a figure out of the clouds.

Cuddlesworth

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

cca is not a meaningless figure, they just dont pull a figure out of the clouds.

Cold cranking amperes (CCA) is the amount of current a battery can provide at 0 °F (−18 °C). The rating is defined as the current a lead-acid battery at that temperature can deliver for 30 seconds and maintain at least 1.2 volts per cell (7.2 volts for a 12-volt battery). It is a more demanding test than those at higher temperatures. This is the most widely used cranking measurement for comparison purposes.

Doesn't seem meaningless. Not very appropriate to ireland though, since -18 °C is extremely unlikely.

Kevin McCloud

Its also worth noting that a bigger Amp Hour battery might not give extra starting power so spending more money on a bigger AH battery may be a needless spend.

CJhaughey

Its nothing to do with extra starting power, its a measure of battery capacity.
It won't start any faster but a bigger battery should allow more turns of the starter which may be the difference between getting started and sitting by the side of the road or in your shed.
One thing all motorcycles apart from BMW's have in common is that their batteries are all too small for the work that they do, big twins and singles especially.

Kevin McCloud

I know what amp hour is charlie, you are incorrect in saying for definite that a bigger amh hour will not start a bike quicker than a smaller amh hour one.

CJhaughey

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

I know what amp hour is charlie, you are incorrect in saying for definite that a bigger amh hour will not start a bike quicker than a smaller amh hour one.

Hows that Kev? Assuming the discharge rate is the same due to it being the same current draw from the starting system as its the same bike, two different batteries with the same discharge rate will only give you more cranking time.
If you have two different classes of battery, for example an AGM and a Gel which have different discharge rates then the calculation is different.
Peukerts law is probably a better calculation of battery capacity.
Given the same bike and same type of battery with higher and lower Ah ratings the higher Ah battery will crank the bike for longer before it drops below usable voltage.

Skill Magill

CJhaughey wrote: »

One thing all motorcycles apart from BMW's have in common is that their batteries are all too small for the work that they do, big twins and singles especially.

I drove an f 650 and am pretty sure it used a standard battery, not 100% sure though, whats your reasoning cj?

Kevin McCloud

Cj what is your view/opinion on battery cca?

CJhaughey

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

Cj what is your view/opinion on battery cca?

I don't use it.
Never seen it on any bike battery I ever bought.

CJhaughey

Skill Magill wrote: »

I drove an f 650 and am pretty sure it used a standard battery, not 100% sure though, whats your reasoning cj?

I was thinking of the old R80 style BMW's they had massive 30Ah batteries.

Kevin McCloud

CJhaughey wrote: »

I don't use it.
Never seen it on any bike battery I ever bought.

It is something you should research, carbon pile battery testing too. Choosing a battery on amp hour alone is naive.

Zascar

Interesting stuff. I got a new battery anyway, one of the Dynavolt Gel ones from Battery world. All grand now. Only €50 and the guy in Battery world was very helpful.

A mate has this fancy battery charger which can actually repair problems so we've stuck it on and I'll see how it goes, no harm in having a spare just in case!

CJhaughey

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

It is something you should research, carbon pile battery testing too. Choosing a battery on amp hour alone is naive.

Really, Tell me which motorcycle batteries here have CCA marked on them?
I have only ever bought Yuasa, Motobatt and Oddyssey batteries
None of them have CCA on the battery.
I have seen car batteries with it marked but never bike batteries.
So tell me how buying a battery on capacity is naiive?
I don't start many bikes at -18°C so as a rating its pretty meaningless to me.
I also don't see any accreditation next to the CCA on car batteries so I don't really think its a valid rating, a manufacturer can print anything they want on a battery and if its not backed up by decent testing by an independent lab its worthless.

Anyway Kev, tell me how I am incorrect in stating that a larger Ah won't start any faster than a lower Ah battery?
I would love to hear how you can make that claim.

Kevin McCloud

CJhaughey wrote: »

Really, Tell me which motorcycle batteries here have CCA marked on them?

Your battery supplier should have the specs on the batteries he sells.

So tell me how buying a battery on capacity is naiive?

You are buying batteries solely on amp hour value. The cranking amp of a battery does not increase accordingly with amp hour.

I don't start many bikes at -18°C so as a rating its pretty meaningless to me.
I also don't see any accreditation next to the CCA on car batteries so I don't really think its a valid rating, a manufacturer can print anything they want on a battery and if its not backed up by decent testing by an independent lab its worthless.

If you are of the opinion that battery cca and carbon pile battery testing is worthless it explains your logic in the way you think batteries perform etc. They do carbon pile testing in realistic temperature.

Anyway Kev, tell me how I am incorrect in stating that a larger Ah won't start any faster than a lower Ah battery?

If you have more cranking amps available in your battery you have more power, I saw a jeep last week a friend bought with a twin battery set up. It had only one battery fitted by its last owner, starting ok as the european version of these vehicles only have one battery anyway. Since he was going putting a winch on the jeep he fitted a second battery and its swinging away quicker thus starting quicker.

CJhaughey

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

Your battery supplier should have the specs on the batteries he sells.
You are buying batteries solely on amp hour value. The cranking amp of a battery does not increase accordingly with amp hour.

I am aware of this, I am also aware that the type of battery also alters the way the power is delivered, if you read my post I referred to discharge rate which is the amount of current that the battery can deliver in a given time.
Which goes back to Peukerts law.
AGM and Gel batteries have faster discharge rates than flooded lead acid batteries.
Thats why Oddyssey and Motobatt batteries outperform an equivalent VRFLA type battery.
And also the reason I would always opt for an AGM over a standard VRFLA battery.

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

If you are of the opinion that battery cca and carbon pile battery testing is worthless it explains your logic in the way you think batteries perform etc. They do carbon pile testing in realistic temperature.

If the CCA has a proper accreditation then it may be of value, Like I said if it doesn't refer to a standard then its meaningless.

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

If you have more cranking amps available in your battery you have more power, I saw a jeep last week a friend bought with a twin battery set up. It had only one battery fitted by its last owner, starting ok as the european version of these vehicles only have one battery anyway. Since he was going putting a winch on the jeep he fitted a second battery and its swinging away quicker thus starting quicker.

This example is of no value, the initial battery may have been old or otherwise impaired.
For that example to be of value both batteries would have to be the same type and age, one new and one old battery is a meaningless test.

Kevin McCloud

CJhaughey wrote: »

I am aware of this, I am also aware that the type of battery also alters the way the power is delivered, if you read my post I referred to discharge rate which is the amount of current that the battery can deliver in a given time.
Which goes back to Peukerts law.

Peukerts law is what it is, is testing a low load from a battery over several hours something that you want from a battery. Maybe if you are a fan of leaving parking lights on. What makes one battery better than the next one is the cranking power. And as i have said previously this does not increase in proportion to amp hour.

If the CCA has a proper accreditation then it may be of value, Like I said if it doesn't refer to a standard then its meaningless.

What is your opinion on carbon pile testing? The BCI (Battery Council International) sets out the protocol on how that should be done. It is more accurate than Peukerts law. Has Peukerts law an accreditation?

This example is of no value, the initial battery may have been old or otherwise impaired.
For that example to be of value both batteries would have to be the same type and age, one new and one old battery is a meaningless test.

As it happens the second battery was the exact same as with any twin battery set up you have to keep them the same.