New job - want me to give notice in old job before I sign new contract

Hannaho

Hi! Just got new job, but they want me to give notice in my old job before signing new contract. They said an email should suffice as a contract and they will post me the contract later. It's a voluntary hospital - I don't want to give up my permanent nursing post without first signing a contract for this new hospital - I don't know the terms or conditions or anything. The new job was advertised in the national papers. What do others think?

Mrs OBumble

Nope: never give notice to the old until you get the contract from the new.

Hannaho

Thanks, so much for your reply - that's exactly what I thought.

Maglight

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Nope: never give notice to the old until you get the contract from the new.

+1
You don't have the job until the contract is signed. Hold firm and say nothing to your current employer until the new job is formalized.

Mr. Loverman

I think it's a little bit weird they asked you to do this. What is their angle do you think?

Shemale

No way, they could put anything in the contract and have you over a barrel as once your notice is given your current employer will be looking for someone else.

Tar.Aldarion

Very odd request, which makes it even more likely that you shouldn't give notice without the new contract.

listermint

This is not standard practice, and there is no way in hell i would ever do that.

Greenmachine

Stay for your are. I would be very wary of the new employers motives in asking you to provide notice, before a contract has been signed. I would not have accepted a job, if the term of the job had not already been made clear.

seamus

The only good reason an employer would have for requesting this is to ensure that you don't go to your old employer and ask for more money, using the new offer as a bargaining chip.

But even then that's a pretty flimsy reason. The employee has more to lose than the employer, and making a job offer to someone who doesn't really want to move is a risk that you have to take.

So yeah, don't ever give your notice without signing the contract with your new employer.

gandalf

This is very odd. The only time I have heard something like this happening was with a recruitment firm where the rep involved was trying to hit their target. Never hand in your resignation to a job without reviewing and signing the new contract offer from your new prospective employer.

seventeen sheep

Not a hope in hell would I consider handing in my notice until all was signed off with the new employer. Sure, without a signed contract, they could change their mind and drastically reduce the offered salary ... and you'd be left in a very difficult situation, having burned your bridges with the old employer. Cannot understand their motivation here, but I'd be very careful if I were you.

Irish_Elect_Eng

The only reason that I can think of for this request is to prevent "double jobbing" I am unsure what the role you are describing is, but would that be an issue in your industry.

Some time ago legislation came in limiting the average working week to 48 hours. At the time our company sent out a form for all employees to fill in requesting that we provide details of any other work we had "on the side" so that this could be taken into account in calculating our average working week.

There were some minor difficulties with some employees that effectively had two full time jobs who had to make a call on which job that they wanted to keep as our company needed them to commit the hours to fulfill their contract with our company. They needed to be sure that folks were not working too many hours in total for legislation compliance and safety reasons.

You could ask them to include a clause in the contract to resolve this rather than exposing yourself to the risk of leaving your current job before taking up the next job.

But you also need to ask if it is worth coming across as difficult before refusing and starting your new job. If you really believe that they are trying to get one over on you before you start, then I would highly recommend that you not take the job at all.

I would start by simply asking them their thinking behind the request as it is very unusual and listen to their response, if they are a good employer then they should listen and address your concerns, after all they will understand that changing jobs is stressful and that they should be starting the induction process with your first questions pre-commencement.

No trust = No career.

El_Duderino 09

If you told them that you have given notice to your current employer, how would they know whether you have or not?

lazeedaisy

All nursing contracts carry the working time directive and state the regs for working other jobs. It's become part of the culture, I can't see them using it for that.

Why not ask them to clarify why they need this? Explain your concerns, if you can't talk to them now it wont get any better.

Its not common in the nursing profession, but let your gut lead you,

beauf

I wouldn't do it. The risk is too high.

Hannaho

Hi! Everyone, thanks for all the replies and advice. I emailed them in response to their email that I could start on 30th March and they would get contract to me as soon as possible - have not had a formal letter of offer either. I said that I couldn't give my notice until I had received a contract and that my partner had also had also advised me similarly. Two weeks later, still no contract or no letter of offer - except email saying I could accept that as a contract. I have pushed the start date now to 20th April, but on the Monday before Paddy's day, I will have to email them again and say I will have to push the date forward to start again, as I can't start without a contract or without being given time to review the contract also. I'm beginning to have cold feet! I feel if they treat me like this now, what will they treat me like when I'm working for them! Does anyone else get a similar vibe from what I said?

Tarzana2

Seems a bit odd. Are you happy in your current position? If so, I'd be inclined to stay put!

gandalf

At this stage unless you have a compelling reason to leave your existing job I would tell these guys that you are no longer interested.

You made it clear that getting the contract was a prerequisite of you handing your notice in to your existing position and they have either ignored you or they are so disorganised that they have been unable to do it so far. That would be a major red flag for me. At this stage your next email should give them a specific time frame to deliver the contract to you and failure to do so will result in you withdrawing your interest in the position.

Hannaho

Hi! Everyone, thanks for replies/advice. I came home last night to find the contract had been emailed to me. However, it appears quite a flimsy contract - not like the ones I am used to in HSE - it really was just the job description that I had pre-interview. Three things worried me re the contract. They gave the position title which is fine - it's the same grade as I was at previously, but they didn't give the remuneration. I am on the 7th point of the scale for this position, and would not want to transfer unless I was paid at this point again. There was some dispute about it and they wanted to put me, originally, on a lesser point of the scale. Verbally, they confirmed that I would be on the 7th point, but I need something in writing, as this wasn't inserted in the contract. I have asked them to either insert it in the contract or send me an email confirming that they are going to pay me at the 7th point of the scale - is this okay, should I have done anything more.

Also, they said in the contract that if I was terminating my employment, I would have to give three month's notice - is this normal.

The final issue was that I am in the middle of studying for an advanced post-graduate diploma relating to the work that I am doing now, and would be doing in my new position. They were aware at interview that I was only half way through this course, and that I would need to attend college for one Friday afternoon a month for another year. I have asked for confirmation that I can continue attending this course - the course I am doing would be very advantageous for them also - but have received no reply yet.

Any advice/comments would be very welcome as I haven't come across these issues with contracts before.

leinsterdude

Three months notice is terrible, I was in a job that had a restructure and signed new contract, got a pay rise happy days, but when I went to leave I realised how long three months is.....never again.

jimmynokia

As an employer this sounds way out of order i would never seek such demands from anyone. 1 Week or 2 weeks notice is the norm for notice,depending on a position in any company be it high profile they might ask for 4 weeks which is fine once stated on starting.

This to me sounds like you are being manipulated and forced,i knew a few people similar who had the same odd request and when they did give notice and went to start there was NO JOB and they were shafted.

Unless the papers are real ie Official letterheads and company info i would tell them to shove it up their jacksy.Then i would seek advice about the company and perhaps go further if required. Good luck anyway i hope it works out whichever way you go from here.

SoftMicro

Alarm bells at every stage of this. I would politely withdraw my interest in the job.

Mr. Loverman

Hannaho wrote: »

Hi! Everyone, thanks for replies/advice. I came home last night to find the contract had been emailed to me.

Is it signed?

Hannaho

Hi! Loverman, the contact isn't signed - I haven't signed it, and won't sign it until I have got confirmation of my salary that it i the 7th point of the scale. I'm fed up though at this stage with this drawn out process - it felt like pulling teeth to get the contract.

In reply to staying in my own job - there were issues with a difficult boss and co-workers - initially I was glad to be able to leave my current job, but now I'm not so sure.

Eoin

It all sounds a bit suspect, or at the least a bit haphazard. I think Mr. Loverman was wondering if they had signed it. If not, then it's no better than the email you received already.

jimmynokia wrote: »

As an employer this sounds way out of order i would never seek such demands from anyone. 1 Week or 2 weeks notice is the norm for notice,depending on a position in any company be it high profile they might ask for 4 weeks which is fine once stated on starting.

I would say that 4 weeks is the norm - 3 months would be for a senior management position. And that's OK, because most companies might expect to have to wait 3 months for someone at that level.

Hannaho

Hi! Eoin, no they haven't signed it - now I'm worried - should I be?

Eoin

Yes, I think so. It all sounds very unprofessional to me. I know your current job isn't ideal, but I'd be inclined to stick it out until you find a job with a more professional outfit. Maybe their HR person has left, is sick or something - but that's just not how you hire someone.

gandalf

jimmynokia wrote: »

Unless the papers are real ie Official letterheads and company info i would tell them to shove it up their jacksy.Then i would seek advice about the company and perhaps go further if required. Good luck anyway i hope it works out whichever way you go from here.

I agree totally with jimmynokia here.

TBH I wouldn't do anything until you received a posted copy on official paper with the details that you want on it.

Based on what I have read and unless you have a serious incentive to join them I would be declining the offer at this stage. Too many red flags in their behaviour.

Hannaho

Hi! Eoin,

I think you are right. I work for the HSE now and have a permanent contract. This other job is for a well-known voluntary hospital - but I am really uneasy and upset about how things have been handled so far.

Aimeee

Just curious but do you know anyone already working there/previously worked there? Wonder if they have a high turnover of staff? Might explain the three month notice period, if they have difficulty retaining staff etc.
Agree with others who have said red flags all the way here. They are probably not under obligation either to facilitate your college day whereas hse would probably be more helpful with this.
Sometimes the devil you know is a better option. Good luck with the situation.

jimmynokia

Hannaho wrote: »

Hi! Eoin,

I think you are right. I work for the HSE now and have a permanent contract. This other job is for a well-known voluntary hospital - but I am really uneasy and upset about how things have been handled so far.

From following this topic since this morning nothing sound's right. Perhaps Google search this place etc and read up some more. As I've said I've seen first hand experience in similar and proved fatal before. Ask for official letterhead rather than email. This leaves a real paper trace which would be preferable over email. If you do get this info feel free to PM me. 100% discretion as im sure other's here will be the same, we can make a collective judgement. From what I read here it's very bogus and I fear for you..

Stheno

Eoin wrote: »

Yes, I think so. It all sounds very unprofessional to me. I know your current job isn't ideal, but I'd be inclined to stick it out until you find a job with a more professional outfit. Maybe their HR person has left, is sick or something - but that's just not how you hire someone.

I took a role with a semi state about 8 years ago, a fairly senior job.

They were seriously lacksadaisial about detail, so much so that I ended up having them courier the contract to me prior to my putting in my notice.

Some places still seem to think you can operate on trust

Just giving a different perspective, I spent the time on contract there and it added to my c.v.

Albertofrog

I'm a nurse - only 4 weeks notice is ever given.
Sounds like they are pulling a fast one - especially on the point scale.
I'd give it a miss if I were you.

MarkAnthony

While I can see everyone's point, a new employer can very easily let you go at the drop of a hat so I wouldn't be too bothered about losing the new job and having no job, that's just par for the course when you move employers.

That doesn't detract from it being an odd request.

Mr. Loverman

Hannaho wrote: »

Hi! Loverman, the contact isn't signed - I haven't signed it, and won't sign it until I have got confirmation of my salary that it i the 7th point of the scale. I'm fed up though at this stage with this drawn out process - it felt like pulling teeth to get the contract.

In reply to staying in my own job - there were issues with a difficult boss and co-workers - initially I was glad to be able to leave my current job, but now I'm not so sure.

Sorry I mean did they sign it?

Did they send you a scan of the signed contract?

Or is it just an unsigned e-mail / document?

EDIT: OK, I can see you answered this already. It's not signed, so it's not a contract. I think it's now safe to assume they are not being fully honest with you. I would not take this job.