Some food for thought for all you planks :D

Ososlo

http://ultra168.com/2013/04/10/to-plank-or-not-to-plank-why-runners-shouldnt-do-it/

Dubgal72

This is interesting. I know ECOLII doesn't rate planks, possibly for these reasons. I really do feel tho that the core exercises I have been doing recently have helped enormously when I have been losing form or, especially, tackling hills...not to mention that I feel leaner and am beginning to see some loooong lost tone.

This is the set that I am currently hooked on (although lately I am fighting a losing battle with the side planky thing):

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/mobile/Article.html?articleId=486

ECOLII

Dubgal72 wrote: »

This is interesting. I know ECOLII doesn't rate planks, possibly for these reasons.

Personally yes I do feel within runners generally it is not the appropriate way to train for injury prevent MOST OF THE TIME however I do think planks have their place

I had a look at that article and the one thing that struck me was the fact that he focuses on "core" as being almost isolated to abdominal and lower spine stabilization.

If you read the comments below there starts to be some debate on the article that ends up being a better read that the article itself.

Problem with making a statement such as planks not being beneficial to performance in isolation is okay but you cannot look at someone solely as a runner, while stabilization might not be counter productive in a neutral posture, someone with an anterior tilt in the pelvis or a more kyphotic spine may actually benefit from spinal stabilization which can reduce injury risk.

Most runners are not full time runners and desk jobs can play a huge role the posture which core work can help to an extent.

If someone is suffering from muscle weakness in hip stabilizers personally I would feel more functional range of movements would be called for, if inhibited that is another matter entirely. An interesting point made in the comments, and one I had not taken into account previously was the proprioceptive (nervous system awareness) development which can be attained through plank exercises which could have a huge bearing on inhibited muscles in hip stabilization which is a common issue in distance runners.

So planks can be the most beneficial supplementary work in some cases depending on lifestyle and underlying issue but from a general standpoint in my experience muscle weakness issues are something to be tackles with functional range of movement development through resistance training

RedRunner

Ososlo wrote: »

http://ultra168.com/2013/04/10/to-plank-or-not-to-plank-why-runners-shouldnt-do-it/

Thanks a lot for posting this . Very interesting read;)

Dubgal72 wrote: »

This is interesting. I know ECOLII doesn't rate planks, possibly for these reasons. I really do feel tho that the core exercises I have been doing recently have helped enormously when I have been losing form or, especially, tackling hills...not to mention that I feel leaner and am beginning to see some loooong lost tone.

This is the set that I am currently hooked on (although lately I am fighting a losing battle with the side planky thing):

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/mobile/Article.html?articleId=486

These look great Dubgal. There's a few new ones in there that I think I'll try.

ECOLII wrote: »

Personally yes I do feel within runners generally it is not the appropriate way to train for injury prevent MOST OF THE TIME however I do think planks have their place

I had a look at that article and the one thing that struck me was the fact that he focuses on "core" as being almost isolated to abdominal and lower spine stabilization.

If you read the comments below there starts to be some debate on the article that ends up being a better read that the article itself.

Problem with making a statement such as planks not being beneficial to performance in isolation is okay but you cannot look at someone solely as a runner, while stabilization might not be counter productive in a neutral posture, someone with an anterior tilt in the pelvis or a more kyphotic spine may actually benefit from spinal stabilization which can reduce injury risk.

Most runners are not full time runners and desk jobs can play a huge role the posture which core work can help to an extent.

If someone is suffering from muscle weakness in hip stabilizers personally I would feel more functional range of movements would be called for, if inhibited that is another matter entirely. An interesting point made in the comments, and one I had not taken into account previously was the proprioceptive (nervous system awareness) development which can be attained through plank exercises which could have a huge bearing on inhibited muscles in hip stabilization which is a common issue in distance runners.

So planks can be the most beneficial supplementary work in some cases depending on lifestyle and underlying issue but from a general standpoint in my experience muscle weakness issues are something to be tackles with functional range of movement development through resistance training

Yes, the posts under the article made for a very interesting read. Seems they work for some and not for others. I thought these would be an essential part of improving core strength. I've got two stress fractures at L5-S1 (pars defects) so I'm on a bit of a mission to improve my core strength. I find though that front planks put a bit of a strain on my lower back and will probably discontinue them. Don't have the same kind of pressure when doing side planks so maybe they'll be ok? (apart from the fact that they are really difficult).

There are plenty of options for improving core so I don't think leaving planks out would adversely affect my attempts to strengthen the core. Probably fair to say that?

Ososlo

On the topic of "core" I was reading an old Irish Runner mag from March 2013 and an interview with Star Geoghegan , physical therapist and he talks about "core" which some might find interesting.

"... ...there's an epidemic out there of cruciate injuries, achilles injuries, lower back injuries. The biggest epidemic we have is core training. Core means training a muscle to be really tight. That causes the joint to be stiff. The most important thing for stability and movement is eccentric strength, and if people did some eccentric training, we'd have less injuries, but instead they do core training and that's their problem. "
Full article may be online, will check later.

rom

Ososlo wrote: »

On the topic of "core" I was reading an old Irish Runner mag from March 2013 and an interview with Star Geoghegan , physical therapist and he talks about "core" which some might find interesting.

"... ...there's an epidemic out there of cruciate injuries, achilles injuries, lower back injuries. The biggest epidemic we have is core training. Core means training a muscle to be really tight. That causes the joint to be stiff. The most important thing for stability and movement is eccentric strength, and if people did some eccentric training, we'd have less injuries, but instead they do core training and that's their problem. "
Full article may be online, will check later.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fm264aHYcm0J:jumpingthegun.ie/blog/%3Foffset%3D1374596072111+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

Dubgal72

I'm confused after reading all these Someone *ECOLII*...any links to a holistic, eccentric, supplementary regime?!!

annapr

Ososlo wrote: »

On the topic of "core" I was reading an old Irish Runner mag from March 2013 and an interview with Star Geoghegan , physical therapist and he talks about "core" which some might find interesting.

"... ...there's an epidemic out there of cruciate injuries, achilles injuries, lower back injuries. The biggest epidemic we have is core training. Core means training a muscle to be really tight. That causes the joint to be stiff. The most important thing for stability and movement is eccentric strength, and if people did some eccentric training, we'd have less injuries, but instead they do core training and that's their problem. "
Full article may be online, will check later.

Interesting article, he certainly puts it up to Irish athletics. My take away from it is that there needs to be more focus on movement/flexibility/range of motion than on strengthening core... but are those two things necessarily mutually exclusive? The first few days of the infamous James Dunne challenge also focuses on flexibility and range of motion...

I feel as if my training is quite eccentric at the best of times :P would like to understand what the experts mean by that though.

ECOLII

rom wrote: »

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fm264aHYcm0J:jumpingthegun.ie/blog/%3Foffset%3D1374596072111+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

Remember reading that article back in the day and complete agreement, alot of the time strengthening muscles is done in isolation rather than as a compound movement running through range of motion. If you look at ROM exercises there will generally be an eccentric component.

Star is a huge believer of this and if you look at his FB page you will see many of the exercises he does are done with the use of a slant board as a result of this belief

Personally rather than planks I tend to be more of a believer in the below as great basis to any strengthening regime for runners to aid performance:

- Squats
- Deadlifts
- Calf raises (eccentric)
- Lunges
- Leg press

There are many different variations of these exercises which can be done to make a more rounded plan and can be done through bodyweight or as resistance training

The limited dorsiflexion is definitely a huge problem in this country and as a result many people are unable to perform a correct basic squat due to ankle restriction (how often do you see people in the gym having to use 1kg plates under the ankle due to lack of ankle mobility)

There is the flip side and the times which planks are necessary as mentioned before, in the gym this morning doing squats myself and though functional range of movement was the aim this thread popped into mind as thoracic stabilization was an important part of performing a the squat so while it may not be crucial for the action of running it does play a role in the life of a runner.

Hannibal Smith

Wait! Hold the phone! Does this mean no need for burpees ????

Dubgal72

ECOLII, your recommended exercises sound very gym-related, have I got that right? What about house bound mammies routines for outside the gym?

Cleanman

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Wait! Hold the phone! Does this mean no need for burpees ????

No better exercise than burpees to make you feel like a plank.......I'll get my coat!

Hannibal Smith

Cleanman wrote: »

No better exercise than burpees to make you feel like a plank.......I'll get my coat!

Life is too short for burpees...and capes.

ECOLII

Dubgal72 wrote: »

ECOLII, your recommended exercises sound very gym-related, have I got that right? What about house bound mammies routines for outside the gym?

Not necessarily each of those exercises can be done at home as a body weight and will provide a conditioning stimulus.

Even the leg press can be replicated by rolling a swiss ball up the wall

Dumbells can be used to add more of a resistance element but not always necessary

ECOLII

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Wait! Hold the phone! Does this mean no need for burpees ????

Burpees are a very good exercise but personally I would group them in with plyometric exercises (more muscle elasticity development for force generation) however there have an eccentric element and go through range of movement so I wouldn't give up just yet

RayCun

what about the exercises the same guy posted elsewhere? any thoughts?

ECOLII

RayCun wrote: »

what about the exercises the same guy posted elsewhere? any thoughts?

No access to that vid at the moment in work will comment later

Hannibal Smith

ECOLII wrote: »

Burpees are a very good exercise but personally I would group them in with plyometric exercises (more muscle elasticity development for force generation) however there have an eccentric element and go through range of movement so I wouldn't give up just yet

*blows raspberry*

annapr

so at the risk of being sent back to the remedial class, what is an eccentric calf raise? I have done calf raises, and know what they are (i think...)... ?

ECOLII

annapr wrote: »

so at the risk of being sent back to the remedial class, what is an eccentric calf raise? I have done calf raises, and know what they are (i think...)... ?

Eccentric just means lengthening under tension, with calf raises your body weight provides the tension so coming back down in a controlled manner as opposed to letting gravity dictate how quick you return to neutral position (or even further)

annapr

ECOLII wrote: »

Eccentric just means lengthening under tension, with calf raises your body weight provides the tension so coming back down in a controlled manner as opposed to letting gravity dictate how quick you return to neutral position (or even further)

Thanks ECOLII, I get it now!

IvoryTower

RayCun wrote: »

what about the exercises the same guy posted elsewhere? any thoughts?

I added this to my routine in the gym this morning

good blog, lots of interesting stuff on it