Toe clips or SPD's for sprint distance

viperlogic

Did Limerick Duathlon yesterday and used toe clips as my tri shoes hadn't arrived and I wasn't going to use my road shoes. My transitions were only around 30s (second fastest overall) whereas majority of everyone else was 50-70seconds. So gained straight away about a minute. Also once on the road I was able to accelerate away where others were fiddling trying to get their foot properly into their shoes. So my question is, over a sprint distance such as 14K yesterday would wearing toe clips be actually better than the marginal power benefit (and alas possibly faster bike leg) of the SPD's? In my eyes it was but then I'm more a push cyclist rather than push and scrape, thou I'm practicing to improve that with one leg drills etc.

sconhome

You answered your own question.

You are not gaining a power benefit from runners in toeclips. You are saving on potential lost time fumbling with kicking off runners, running barefoot, jumping onto a bike, strapping in, building speed, unstrapping, dismounting barefoot, finding shoes, fitting sweaty feet into damp runners and running.

For duathlons definitely toeclips. Wasting time looking good with clip ins.

viperlogic

Thx for confirming AKW. Only neg thou of toe clips is that my arches are bit tender today due to the flex of the runner when putting the power down as apposed to the stiff bike shoe.

zico10

AKW wrote: »

You answered your own question.

You are not gaining a power benefit from runners in toeclips. You are saving on potential lost time fumbling with kicking off runners, running barefoot, jumping onto a bike, strapping in, building speed, unstrapping, dismounting barefoot, finding shoes, fitting sweaty feet into damp runners and running.

For duathlons definitely toeclips. Wasting time looking good with clip ins.

I think you're making it sound like an awful lot more complicated than it really is. Half the things you list have to be done anyway. Anybody anyway serious about triathlon should get used to clipless pedals. Once you are, I'd say a bigger waste of time would be switching pedals every time you wanted to do a sprint duathlon.

OP if you're happy to make investment, then these (http://www.pyroplatformpedals.com/) might suit, but I've never seen anybody with them and there is no doubt still some loss of power when using them.

I could follow my own advice here, but people who are slow in transition more often than not, haven't visualised what they are going to do, haven't rehearsed things, and simply need to hurry up.

woody1

ive seen one set of those pyro platforms at the setanta duathlon 2 /3 years ago, googled for ages to try to find them with no luck , at 130 euros i wont be investing though
agree with you on the using duathlons to get used to shoes on off and bike mounts for triathlons

tunney

zico10 wrote: »

I think you're making it sound like an awful lot more complicated than it really is. Half the things you list have to be done anyway. Anybody anyway serious about triathlon should get used to clipless pedals. Once you are, I'd say a bigger waste of time would be switching pedals every time you wanted to do a sprint duathlon.

OP if you're happy to make investment, then these (http://www.pyroplatformpedals.com/) might suit, but I've never seen anybody with them and there is no doubt still some loss of power when using them.

I could follow my own advice here, but people who are slow in transition more often than not, haven't visualised what they are going to do, haven't rehearsed things, and simply need to hurry up.

Pyro pedals were all the rage 10 or so years ago. In the duathlons in the park the big boys used them all the time. You do still lose some power due to compression of the EVA but less than just runners on pedals.

As you say - just learn how to do transitions really.

sconhome

zico10 wrote: »

I think you're making it sound like an awful lot more complicated than it really is. Half the things you list have to be done anyway.

Don't disagree with you re getting used to clipping in and out.

In the context of this question I think toe clips over SPD's the difference on the bike will be marginal in terms of power loss but the time saving will be a whole lot different sticking with runners from start to finish. Especially for someone who is not used to switching or hasn't been practising brick sessions over and over.

tunney

viperlogic wrote: »

Did Limerick Duathlon yesterday and used toe clips as my tri shoes hadn't arrived and I wasn't going to use my road shoes. My transitions were only around 30s (second fastest overall) whereas majority of everyone else was 50-70seconds. So gained straight away about a minute. Also once on the road I was able to accelerate away where others were fiddling trying to get their foot properly into their shoes. So my question is, over a sprint distance such as 14K yesterday would wearing toe clips be actually better than the marginal power benefit (and alas possibly faster bike leg) of the SPD's? In my eyes it was but then I'm more a push cyclist rather than push and scrape, thou I'm practicing to improve that with one leg drills etc.

Looking at the results and comparing to other athletes around your level that used clip in shoes - your transitions were 2-3 seconds faster. Not a whole lot. Compare yourself to competent people that placed at the same level or above. Or buy a new watch.

viperlogic

tunney wrote: »

Or buy a new watch.

Seriously, have I ever offended you? Why the constant stabs? A mod already warned you

tunney

viperlogic wrote: »

Did Limerick Duathlon yesterday and used toe clips as my tri shoes hadn't arrived and I wasn't going to use my road shoes. My transitions were only around 30s (second fastest overall) whereas majority of everyone else was 50-70seconds. So gained straight away about a minute. Also once on the road I was able to accelerate away where others were fiddling trying to get their foot properly into their shoes. So my question is, over a sprint distance such as 14K yesterday would wearing toe clips be actually better than the marginal power benefit (and alas possibly faster bike leg) of the SPD's? In my eyes it was but then I'm more a push cyclist rather than push and scrape, thou I'm practicing to improve that with one leg drills etc.

tunney wrote: »

Looking at the results and comparing to other athletes around your level that used clip in shoes - your transitions were 2-3 seconds faster. Not a whole lot. Compare yourself to competent people that placed at the same level or above. Or buy a new watch.

viperlogic wrote: »

Seriously, have I ever offended you? Why the constant stabs? A mod already warned you

Obviously something up with your timings.

viperlogic

As you can clearly see from post #9, it was reference to "Or buy a new watch" not the timings. If its jealously then fair enough, but keep it to yourself, once is fine as a joke, sure even I got a chuckle out of it, but constantly? Anyways

Now regards the timings, the average of the top 35 was 42 seconds whereas mine was 32 seconds, that's still a ~20 second advantage, plus the many I passed out at the start who were trying to get their feet into their shoes.

Looking at the whole field the average was 63 seconds, so not far off from my 50 to 70 second statement which was from just quickly scanning the results.

zico10

viperlogic wrote: »

Now regards the timings, the average of the top 35 was 42 seconds whereas mine was 32 seconds, that's still a ~20 second advantage, plus the many I passed out at the start who were trying to get their feet into their shoes.

Out of the top 35, where did your bike split rank? Then where did your bike split combined with your two transitions rank? The answers to those two questions should give you an idea as to whether having proper bike shoes is worth it or not. There's little point being the second fastest in transition if it has a negative impact on the rest of your race.

So my question is, over a sprint distance such as 14K yesterday would wearing toe clips be actually better than the marginal power benefit (and alas possibly faster bike leg) of the SPD's?

To answer your original question; Yes, it most certainly is worth it. At some distance it wouldn't be, but that would have to be one very short bike leg. There's a reason all the top guys were wearing bike shoes on Sunday. That alone should answer your question.

viperlogic

zico10 wrote: »

Out of the top 35, where did your bike split rank? Then where did your bike split combined with your two transitions rank? The answers to those two questions should give you an idea as to whether having proper bike shoes is worth it or not. There's little point being the second fastest in transition if it has a negative impact on the rest of your race.

T1: 9th overall and 9th in top 35 (fumble with helmet strap)
Bike: 34th overall and 29th in top 35
T2: 2nd overall and 1st in top 35
T1 + Bike + T2: 28th overall and 27th in top 35

viperlogic

PS Congrats on your podium finish on Sunday Zico

zico10

viperlogic wrote: »

T1: 9th overall and 9th in top 35 (fumble with helmet strap)
Bike: 34th overall and 29th in top 35
T2: 2nd overall and 1st in top 35
T1 + Bike + T2: 28th overall and 27th in top 35

Unless you've raced some of the guys close to you before, it's hard to know how much of an impact cycling in runners had on your overall placing, but it definitely had an impact on your performance. The above should show you that fast transitions aren't necessarily the be all and end.

Of course lot of time can be gained or lost in transition, but you need to build on it out on the bike and out on the run. I'd terrible transitions, and gave up a huge amount of time, but I still have absolutely no doubt that using clipless pedals was the right thing to do.

I don't know if you have clipless pedals or not. If you don't, get them, get used to them, and leave them on your bike for all races. If you do, then don't bother ever taking them off.