Ireland’s energy crisis

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-s-energy-crisis-1.2111299

Energy is not one of Ireland’s strengths: we import almost 90 per cent of our power, we’ve made little progress in renewables, and we’re at the mercy of an unstable global market. Where will Ireland get its energy in years to come?

Probably nothing new to many here, but more in the public domain now, or just more fish-n-chip paper?

Most Irish policies went in the opposite direction during the CT years, so I suppose it'll soon be payback time as future generations have to do extra to resolve the upcoming energy crunch.

Birdnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-s-energy-crisis-1.2111299

Probably nothing new to many here, but more in the public domain now, or just more fish-n-chip paper?

Most Irish policies went in the opposite direction during the CT years, so I suppose it'll soon be payback time as future generations have to do extra to resolve the upcoming energy crunch.

A pretty poor article which consisted of soundbytes from 2 Labour ministers and bald statements such as "wind energy is free". Another example of lazy journalism in the Irish media. I would direct people to articles written by Colm McCarthy on such matters that actually use up to date factual info, such as ESB submissions to the Green paper on energy etc.

Macha

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-s-energy-crisis-1.2111299

Probably nothing new to many here, but more in the public domain now, or just more fish-n-chip paper?

Most Irish policies went in the opposite direction during the CT years, so I suppose it'll soon be payback time as future generations have to do extra to resolve the upcoming energy crunch.

Yep and in more ways than one.

The article says that transport is where we use most of our energy. That's crazy but clearly a direct result of our woeful planning laws. We're scattered across the country, which makes reducing transport demand practically impossible. And a lot of the fossil fuels we import is oil for use in transport.

The point made in the article about district heating is also a good one. At Ireland's population densities, it would only make sense to install it in a few parts of Dublin, Cork, Limerick maybe Galway.

djpbarry

Birdnuts wrote: »

A pretty poor article which consisted of soundbytes from 2 Labour ministers and bald statements such as "wind energy is free".

Where in that article is it stated that "wind energy is free"?

Heroditas

Macha wrote: »

The article says that transport is where we use most of our energy.

A factually incorrect statement by the journalist.
All he had to do was have a look at any of the Energy in Ireland publications by SEAI and he'd have found that was not the case. In 2011, transport consumed 33% of the TPER in Ireland.
Residential - 26.8%
Industry - 23.3%
Commercial/public sector - 14.4%
Agricultural/fisheries - 2.5%

Macha

Ah maybe I misread the article or used the wrong language in my post. I understood it as being the largest sector not that it was more than 50% of our energy use.

Heroditas

Macha wrote: »

Ah maybe I misread the article or used the wrong language in my post. I understood it as being the largest sector not that it was more than 50% of our energy use.

No, you didn't misread it at all. The journalist was a bit shoddy in either his research or his use of language:

But even if all electricity came from renewables it would still comprise only 20 per cent of all our needs. (Transport uses most of our energy.)

nokia69

But even if all electricity came from renewables it would still comprise only 20 per cent of all our needs. (Transport uses most of our energy.)

a large % transport will electric soon

I think we will go down the LNG route in the future and I hope to see solar PV take off if prices keep falling

robp

nokia69 wrote: »

a large % transport will electric soon

People have been saying it is just around the corner for years now and it is still not here.
Currently Electric vehicles only constitute around 0.5% of all new car sales despite heavy subsidies. Even the official predictions are not anticipating a dramatic switch anytime soon.

Under the Government’s National Energy Efficiency Action Plan it is estimated that approximately 50,000 EVs will be in use on Irish roads by 2020 — far short of the original target of 230,000 cares to be electrified which would have represented 10% of the national car fleet.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/technology/sales-of-electric-vehicles-up-46-303735.html

nokia69

robp wrote: »

People have been saying it is just around the corner for years now and it is still not here.
Currently Electric vehicles only constitute around 0.5% of all new car sales despite heavy subsidies. Even the official predictions are not anticipating a dramatic switch anytime soon.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/technology/sales-of-electric-vehicles-up-46-303735.html

the Tesla model 3 and other cars like it will make all the difference

Cookie_Monster

nokia69 wrote: »

the Tesla model 3 and other cars like it will make all the difference

no, they won't

until real alternatives to current battery tech come on stream, either far superior batteries per unit weight or functional high charge capacitors elec vehicles will remain a tiny niche.

Macha

That's true, although I think Tesla is doing wonders or the desirability of electric cars, which is also important.

nokia69

nokia69 wrote: »

the Tesla model 3 and other cars like it will make all the difference

The biggest problem with electric cars is affordability, my current short trips to the railway station and home would be perfect for one.

So in reality, electric is still only for the well off, it'll be a long time before there is a decent second hand market for EVs.

But then again, EVs are only a small part of the solution to what is a major issue, the real problem is that we have such a diverse population where a large number of people require personal transport to go anywhere to do anything, this is the elephant in the room!

Cookie_Monster

Deleted User wrote: »

the real problem is that we have such a diverse population where a large number of people require powered personal transport to go anywhere to do anything, this is the elephant in the room!

minor change to your post which is the real problem. Cycling is not really an issue when it comes to providing short to med transport solutions.

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

minor change to your post which is the real problem. Cycling is not really an issue when it comes to providing short to med transport solutions.

Yes, I was referring to powered transport, cycling isn't a realistic proposition for most of the journeys needed.

nokia69

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no, they won't

until real alternatives to current battery tech come on stream, either far superior batteries per unit weight or functional high charge capacitors elec vehicles will remain a tiny niche.

yes they will

just look at the model S, Tesla went from zero to about ten per cent of the luxury car market in the US, is that not proof that many people will drive electric if they have the money and if the car is good enough

the base model 3 will cost 35K and have a 200 mile range, they will have no problems selling millions

the Leaf, Volt, Zoe, i8, i3 ect are cars that were built because of the Tesla roadster, we have yet to see the cars that the Model S will cause to be built, but GM have said they are working on the Bolt a 200 mile BEV, I bet Nissan are working on the gen 2 leaf

the future is electric

Markcheese

If current interest in the leaf is anything to go off then electric cars are on their way to becoming very mainstream ...-
And if smart programmable meters (+ variable pricing) linked to smart sockets ever actually arrive then the wind age will really start in Ireland -
It'll only be part of our energy mix but if we could bring down our energy imports and increase our energy security it's all good ( as long as it doesn't cost too much )

robp

nokia69 wrote: »

yes they will

just look at the model S, Tesla went from zero to about ten per cent of the luxury car market in the US, is that not proof that many people will drive electric if they have the money and if the car is good enough

the base model 3 will cost 35K and have a 200 mile range, they will have no problems selling millions

the Leaf, Volt, Zoe, i8, i3 ect are cars that were built because of the Tesla roadster, we have yet to see the cars that the Model S will cause to be built, but GM have said they are working on the Bolt a 200 mile BEV, I bet Nissan are working on the gen 2 leaf

the future is electric

The US is leading in the field. EV are more common there but still well short of projections. There are currently at 30% of Obama's 2011 projections.

nokia69

robp wrote: »

The US is leading in the field. EV are more common there but still well short of projections. There are currently at 30% of Obama's 2011 projections.

most people won't buy an EV with less than a 200 mile range

the Tesla model S had a 160 mile version but almost nobody wanted it, so Tesla just cancelled it and they have now said that they will never build a car that gets less than 200 miles per charge

Tesla will be selling more than half a million model 3s in 2017, should reach Ireland a year or so latter

200 miles per charge and superchargers and we will see a massive jump in EV sales

Cookie_Monster

200 miles is still terrible as is the ridiculous wait to charge batteries. Not to mention the horrendous levels of pollution that production of those batteries emit (but that someone else problem, right?). Cars aren't the issue really anyway as trucks and buses put out way more pollution and these are certainly not going to be battery powered any time soon.

as for Tesla sales 32,000 total sold against 71,020,000 cars in 2014; 0.044% of total. But yeah, definitely huge interest all right :rolleyes:

nokia69

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

200 miles is still terrible as is the ridiculous wait to charge batteries. Not to mention the horrendous levels of pollution that production of those batteries emit (but that someone else problem, right?). Cars aren't the issue really anyway as trucks and buses put out way more pollution and these are certainly not going to be battery powered any time soon.

as for Tesla sales 32,000 total sold against 71,020,000 cars in 2014; 0.044% of total. But yeah, definitely huge interest all right :rolleyes:

30 minutes at a tesla supercharger will give 170 miles, pretty good IMO, they think they can get it down to 10 minutes

how do batteries emit pollution ?

battery powered buses and trucks are on the way

the point I was making about tesla sales is that in a short space of time they have taken a significant % of the luxury car market, yes I know its tiny in the overall car market

a person buying a new Golf/focus is never going to buy a new model S but they might buy a new model 3

the Model S/X is just the start of a trend, if you are too blind to see it fair enough

Capt'n Midnight

Macha wrote: »

The point made in the article about district heating is also a good one. At Ireland's population densities, it would only make sense to install it in a few parts of Dublin, Cork, Limerick maybe Galway.

They had that in Ballymun, but didn't fit individual thermostats so in summer most of the windows were open.


It's not something you can retro fit easily and for cheapness most apartments build during the boom had electric heating fitted. In future as we move to renewables there might even be less heat to spare.

Perhaps we should use the excess heat for greenhouses ?

Old diesel

The big elephant in the room - is how are we going to live in the future.

We can already see with wind farm planning that there is very little integrated planning - with wind developers making many of the key decisions - and planners rubberstamping. Exactly the same sort of planning that's criticised with one off houses.

Do we move people from their homes to accommodate wind energy (expensive) - or do we ensure that the wind energy is trouble free for residents - and strive for an outcome where residents are happy with the wind energy - or indeed other energy solutions that operate near their homes.

How do we change settlement patterns in Ireland - more to the point - SHOULD we????

How do we develop FUTURE energy solutions is another key one - theres this unspoken rule that seeking to improve wind energy is bad talk. Yet the NORM is to always look to make solutions better - and to do the best one can to eliminate flaws.

In fact its the desire to make things BETTER that drives innovation

Need to get a handle on future living solutions - and key questions on communities of the future - should we have LESS communities - and where?????

And if we go for less communities - where do those whose communities will wind down and close as a community - actually live.

We need to plan the future on a wider basis looking at a variety of issues like what ive mentioned above - because many many issues and how we solve them will have implications for how we develop energy.

Changing settlement patterns for example may mean more destrict heating is possible (for example) - and less communities means more space to dump (sorry locate) wind turbines to

Markcheese

Wind turbines by their nature tend to be in windy places - ( tops of mountains - exposed coasts - exposed flat areas - ) which usually tend to be the areas with lower population densities -
Wind turbines have changed and improved massively over the last 20 years, and are still evolving and improving -( and tending towards less but bigger turbines )
I'd love to see an Irish long term study monitering current wind farms , getting all nearby residents to log nuisance, and sensors at the same sites as well .
Would answer (+possibly ask) a lot of questions.

Capt'n Midnight

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/
Today we're getting 50% of electricity from renewables and

The market price today is €33.73/£25.93 MW/h, compare that to £92.50 price of Nuclear from Hinkley C which is index linked for 35 years so won't be getting cheaper.

And while I cant see turbines from where I live I can see pylons. 220KV pylons affect far more urban dwellers than rural ones. If there weren't pylons then either electricity would have to be generated locally from small inefficient fossil fuel stations and that's not a good thing or if the cables were undergrounded I'd have to pay far more for my electricity.

There are two million electricity customers in the Republic. Every ten million that's spent on underground cables represents an average €5 per customer. I'd think that money would be better spent on renewables rather than trying to appease a small vocal minority or at the very least I don't think that a small vocal minority should be given preferential treatment to the people who live in the suburbs with 220KV pylons running through their estates.

Markcheese

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/
Today we're getting 50% of electricity from renewables and

The market price today is €33.73/£25.93 MW/h, compare that to £92.50 price of Nuclear from Hinkley C which is index linked for 35 years so won't be getting cheaper.

And while I cant see turbines from where I live I can see pylons. 220KV pylons affect far more urban dwellers than rural ones. If there weren't pylons then either electricity would have to be generated locally from small inefficient fossil fuel stations and that's not a good thing or if the cables were undergrounded I'd have to pay far more for my electricity.

There are two million electricity customers in the Republic. Every ten million that's spent on underground cables represents an average €5 per customer. I'd think that money would be better spent on renewables rather than trying to appease a small vocal minority or at the very least I don't think that a small vocal minority should be given preferential treatment to the people who live in the suburbs with 220KV pylons running through their estates.

Yes and no on the pylons, I've plenty of pylons near the house ( none in sight though) and that's grand - I really wouldn't want to live under a line though - but a lot of the grief is over the look - to me that smacks of nimby- isim .

Kalman

We are a small country surrounded by coastline. Wind power could supply quite a large quantity of our energy needs.

Birdnuts

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/
Today we're getting 50% of electricity from renewables and

The market price today is €33.73/£25.93 MW/h, compare that to £92.50 price of Nuclear from Hinkley C which is index linked for 35 years so won't be getting cheaper.

And while I cant see turbines from where I live I can see pylons. 220KV pylons affect far more urban dwellers than rural ones. If there weren't pylons then either electricity would have to be generated locally from small inefficient fossil fuel stations and that's not a good thing or if the cables were undergrounded I'd have to pay far more for my electricity.

There are two million electricity customers in the Republic. Every ten million that's spent on underground cables represents an average €5 per customer. I'd think that money would be better spent on renewables rather than trying to appease a small vocal minority or at the very least I don't think that a small vocal minority should be given preferential treatment to the people who live in the suburbs with 220KV pylons running through their estates.

So what?? its a windy day. Plenty of days this winter when wind was contributing less than 1% on cold clear nights. As for price, why haven't consumers in Ireland seen a big fall in power bills with the collapse in the price of gas over the past 2 years?? Since the government started started medalling in Irelands energy market via the promotion of wind power etc. Irelands power bills have gone from less than the EU averge to the 4th most expensive in the block. As for pylons - most of Eirgrids plans are to facilitate wind developers at the expense of local communities and the cost will again be added to our bills. Even the ESB has expressed concern in their submission to the governments green paper on energy in regards to the cost and necessity of Eirgrids wind related grid plans

PS: People don't pay spot wholesale prices on a given day, so why bring it up??. .They pay the retail price which includes all the added costs of catering for an intermittent, unreliable power source on the grid.

djpbarry

Birdnuts wrote: »

So what?? its a windy day. Plenty of days this winter when wind was contributing less than 1% on cold clear nights. As for price, why haven't consumers in Ireland seen a big fall in power bills with the collapse in the price of gas over the past 2 years?? Since the government started started medalling in Irelands energy market via the promotion of wind power etc. Irelands power bills have gone from less than the EU averge to the 4th most expensive in the block. As for pylons - most of Eirgrids plans are to facilitate wind developers at the expense of local communities and the cost will again be added to our bills. Even the ESB has expressed concern in their submission to the governments green paper on energy in regards to the cost and necessity of Eirgrids wind related grid plans

PS: People don't pay spot wholesale prices on a given day, so why bring it up??. .They pay the retail price which includes all the added costs of catering for an intermittent, unreliable power source on the grid.

Any chance you could answer the question I asked you earlier in the thread? Ta.