Does anybody use ICBF data?

blue5000

I've been with ICBF since btap started, last year I started to use it a bit when selecting cows/heifers to go to different bulls. Cows that are below 150 for maternal figures went to a terminal sire, and cows >150 I tried to give them maternal sires with a view to producing replacements. Ok there are a few exceptions, like cows with bad temperament, feet etc. can still have high ebi's.

Just wondering if many beef farmers on here use the figures? I know that reliability is low for stock bulls, but I think if we don't start using them we will never make much progress in improving the beef herd. What do you think?

tismesoitis

blue5000 wrote: »

I've been with ICBF since btap started, last year I started to use it a bit when selecting cows/heifers to go to different bulls. Cows that are below 150 for maternal figures went to a terminal sire, and cows >150 I tried to give them maternal sires with a view to producing replacements. Ok there are a few exceptions, like cows with bad temperament, feet etc. can still have high ebi's.

Just wondering if many beef farmers on here use the figures? I know that reliability is low for stock bulls, but I think if we don't start using them we will never make much progress in improving the beef herd. What do you think?

Same as yourself Blue tend to pick out the higher maternal ladies to breed replacements of. If nothing else i think it adds a bit more interest to the job!!

Farrell

tismesoitis wrote: »

Same as yourself Blue tend to pick out the higher maternal ladies to breed replacements of. If nothing else i think it adds a bit more interest to the job!!

Yea same here, letting a few go cos they're not rating enough.
Only issue I have, allot of AI bulls aren't rating high enough (in my opinion) plus top terminal sires CH for example VAK with Bova, LAO & ALU with Eurogene for example have poor rating for terminal, but have good ratings for docile, carcess weight & confirmation (terminal traits) plus over 200c/kg rating.
While other bulls wouldn't rate as high on individual traits, but higher overall rating

visatorro

not finishing beef but is the problem that if you talk to ten suckler men you'll get ten answer's as to what makes up the best cow. bar calving every year and temperament no one. agrees on breed or size of animal. too much milk not enough milk. is it very hard for icbf to recommend bulls?

Farrell

visatorro wrote: »

not finishing beef but is the problem that if you talk to ten suckler men you'll get ten answer's as to what makes up the best cow. bar calving every year and temperament no one. agrees on breed or size of animal. too much milk not enough milk. is it very hard for icbf to recommend bulls?

True, but if you're selling weanlings and intend using a terminal sire, the decision you make today will have a bearing on your outcome in 18 months time.
Also if you pick a bull to use for material especially a milk injection, only to find at time of breeding that bull you selected wasn't exactly what you thought you were getting

onyerbikepat

You know, if a dairy guy is deciding to bull a Friesian heifer or not. He's not thinking - 'I wonder will she have any milk'. Why should it be any different for suckler cows. You'd like to think that in a few years, with enough data gathered by ICBF, that reliability figures would go up for bulls that haven't bred yet.

Bellview

I pay the little respect for a few reasons. Firstly there are too many subjective measures in what icbf measure..in beef the only stat that is not subjective is when the animal is on the hook. Secondly the much pushed maternal bull program has some most non maternal sires included..ie in Angus there is a bull that is a son of busullow elmark... This sire is a tough calver who has bred another Angus bull in Scottish ai called Dunbar.. A cow killer. Then icbf consider him a good candidate for maternal program...crazy. Thirdly there needs to be some compulsion on farmers naming sires on all calves as there are too many without sire.

I review the calving stats as most od customers I have are dairy men so I will always aim at a more traditional soft type angus that will pop out and may turn into a nice type calf...staying away from the icbf pushed rossitors which are hard cattle to finish eventhough icbf seem to want to promote them...

onyerbikepat

I'd have to admit now, I'm a big fan of it. I don't pay any need to it, when it comes to my own cows. I reckon I know them better than anyone.
It's when it comes to bull selection in AI, that I really find it good. Once the reliability of the bull is high, I'm more than happy with that. I've yet to see a bull that ICBF say is easy calving, not be easy calving. Likewise for almost every other trait too.

blue5000

Bellview wrote: »

I pay the little respect for a few reasons. Firstly there are too many subjective measures in what icbf measure..in beef the only stat that is not subjective is when the animal is on the hook. Secondly the much pushed maternal bull program has some most non maternal sires included..ie in Angus there is a bull that is a son of busullow elmark... This sire is a tough calver who has bred another Angus bull in Scottish ai called Dunbar.. A cow killer. Then icbf consider him a good candidate for maternal program...crazy. Thirdly there needs to be some compulsion on farmers naming sires on all calves as there are too many without sire.

I review the calving stats as most od customers I have are dairy men so I will always aim at a more traditional soft type angus that will pop out and may turn into a nice type calf...staying away from the icbf pushed rossitors which are hard cattle to finish eventhough icbf seem to want to promote them...

That's exactly the sort of bull that a suckler farmer needs, I have a bull by LWF, very deep in the brisket, not easily calved on heifers, but his daughters are all able to calve by themselves to continental bulls. Ok you have a market for the easy calving angus bull, but don't be always knocking the rossiter line, I have a few calves by zfl, there is nothing wrong with them.

Bellview

Blue you are correct there are different bulls for different markets but there are some points I disagree with you on above

1. Angus is an easy calving breed... not intended to move towards the continental calving difficulty. The dairy man is the bread and butter for the breed as 45% of beef calves in dairy herd are angus
2. the maternal program from ICBF calls out easy calving as one of its objectives... using busullow elmark is moing away from their own criteria
3. Rossiter is at best an average bull... I have experience of him. I had the misfortune of putting him on one of the best angus cows in the yard and luckily she had a bull as I did not have to feel that a great future dam ... the calf was the worst bull the cow has ever bred of the 5 she has had.... Rossitor works on very large framed cows that are hard to finish plus from an angus point of view an ugly head ... the type the scotish are producing but he is not adding value to typical angus cow in Ireland
4. a bull worth considering for suckler as he is a tough calver is the Bunlahy John in Dovea... but be careful on which cows as I'm aware of pedigree's that were tight calving


Goulding king is out of an Eiseinhower dam... zfl has yopung dale Hogan in his background ... both DAM bloodlines are the source of the size. Both bulls I would advise against in a dairy herd for calving difficulty

blue5000

You know a lot more than I do about aa pedigrees, I know a lot of lads were a bit pissed off at Tullamore show last year because all the Scottish judge went for was size, which I suppose supports what you said above.

Rossiter has huge ebi figures, think it's around 220? but has dropped from 340ish, which in anyone's book is a big drop. I'd like to keep the size in my breeding, I think if it's there on the maternal side, those cows daughters should be easy calving. Maybe I'm wrong, but if it's not there it leaves me less options on choosing a terminal sire.

Bellview

Agree on terminal side especially in AI as the AI's will follow the volume business and go after the bull for the dairy man. My opinion is that Dovea are doing a far superior job in picking Angus bulls that give a choice to the beef man along with dairy. The one pity of the Irish AI's is that they never put in a son of Nord into the systems as Nord bred good cattle and some of his sons are breeding well in the pedigree side. There were relatively small amount of Nord in circulation as his semen did not work well in AI ... he later went to a pedigree herd and worked well there for a few years

My opinion of Rossiter has always been low and to be honest I think at 220 he is still rated too high as there are a lot of less than average angus cattle off him... they take too much feeding to get right, which to any beef man is the worst trait of all.

The bunlahy bull could be worth a small punt, but as I mentioned earlier keep him well away from heifers

Unfortunately Tullamore has turned into a joke in the angus side where there are as many pedigree breeders avoid Tullamore. I haven't shown or went there in years... The scots have moved to the large empty frame cattle that are hard to finish and once they load them with feed they hit a tonne... In the joutnal I have seen Teagasc are now recommending that farmers should buy older bulls like the UK... while I understand this point of view, it will result in breeders feeding the hell out of average large frame bulls and making them look good with a tonne of feed..

The best show of pedigree bull calves in 2014 & again in 2015 will be Iverk in Pilltown as the ALDI Irish angus bull calf class will pull them out. From a commercial point of view it is worth a look as you may see a bull that gets closer to ticking the terminal box and check in on their breeding.