Fertility Trouble

Tornbrook

I have a Pedigree Limousin cow (by Vigot), bought at as heifer 14 months old in Roscommon. first calf at 27 months to easy calving Limo bull (HCA), May 2014. It actually turned out to be a difficult pull, but thankfully the calf is alive.
I allowed the cow time to recover 75 days before, AI.
Thats where the trouble starts, I tried estrumate, but AI didnt hold on two occasions. Finally found out about Receptol, after a few months of frustration. Now she is in calf to ZAG limo bull.
Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is the cow likely to have fertility trouble every time, should I cut my losses a get rid?
I'm a novice so any advice is welcome.

onyerbikepat

When you say you are a novice, do you mean to Limousin pedigree breeding or to the whole breeding/AI thing?

Tornbrook

both if i'm honest, but more so pedigree limousin breeding

tanko

It wouldn't be unusual for a heifer to take a while to go back in calf after a difficult calving. I wouldn't be thinking about getting rid of her. I'd see how this pregnancy goes and try to put her in calf again.

AntrimGlens

Tornbrook wrote: »

I have a Pedigree Limousin cow (by Vigot), bought at as heifer 14 months old in Roscommon. first calf at 27 months to easy calving Limo bull (HCA), May 2014. It actually turned out to be a difficult pull, but thankfully the calf is alive.
I allowed the cow time to recover 75 days before, AI.
Thats where the trouble starts, I tried estrumate, but AI didnt hold on two occasions. Finally found out about Receptol, after a few months of frustration. Now she is in calf to ZAG limo bull.
Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is the cow likely to have fertility trouble every time, should I cut my losses a get rid?
I'm a novice so any advice is welcome.

Welcome to the world of Pedigree Breeding. She a pure bred, you're always more likely to have lower and poorer conception rates than with a cross bred. When she calves again get a vet to handle her and see if her ovaries are okay and there's no cysts etc on her tubes. Unless it was a really really hard pull for the first calf it shouldn't affect her too much to hold to service. Ai is a hit and miss game with pedigree Lims, I've a heifer here that i put a young bull on last night, it was her third repeat and there's over £150 worth of straws gone into her. If she's back bulling in three weeks she's getting the road. I suppose it depends on how she breeds for you whether you want the hassle every time if she takes 90 days to hold to a service?

Buford T. Justice XIX

Tornbrook wrote: »

I have a Pedigree Limousin cow (by Vigot), bought at as heifer 14 months old in Roscommon. first calf at 27 months to easy calving Limo bull (HCA), May 2014. It actually turned out to be a difficult pull, but thankfully the calf is alive.
I allowed the cow time to recover 75 days before, AI.
Thats where the trouble starts, I tried estrumate, but AI didnt hold on two occasions. Finally found out about Receptol, after a few months of frustration. Now she is in calf to ZAG limo bull.
Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is the cow likely to have fertility trouble every time, should I cut my losses a get rid?
I'm a novice so any advice is welcome.

It is a big problem getting a cow in-calf after the first calf, whether dairy or suckling. Plus, in suckling only 80% of the cows calving this year will have a calf next year.

I wouldn't get too hung up on waiting for a fixed time before bulling her, if she is in heat, there is a chance she will go in calf. Something like a 10-15% chance of holding to the first heat after calving, going up to 60% in the second heat and 80% for the third or thereabouts. It can get expensive if you are using expensive straws for the first heat, though.

There are things you can do to encourage heat like limiting suckling to twice a day for a month to help the heat cycle get started if you have the time to do it. Also, getting her to calve down at a good condition score, not too fat or too thin to make calving easier and make it more likely she will come into heat quicker.

Tornbrook

thanks tanko.

Shes due in Sept 2015, which is totally out of sync with the rest of herd calving in mid march.
But i suppose if she had a pedigree bull calf born in September, he would be suitable for sale at 18 months which would be March (if he's any good).

Ideally i prefer a heifer, had her scanned about a month ago, but it was too early to tell the sex of calf.

Tornbrook

AntrimGlens

Thanks for the reply. I bought a pre-order staw for RHN for the second time, but otherwise just used what the AI man had in the can.
ZAG seemed like a good option.

Tornbrook

Buford T. Justice V - cheers for the advice.

Think i'll keep her, docile animal, with decent breeding.
would you recommend using Estrumate and or Receptol treatment each time? it adds a bit of cost but does help in timing AI and hopefully improving conception.

onyerbikepat

Funny, but I have two pedigree Lim cows here and I never had to give them a second straw. They are both rated high for fertility, so their breeding helps too. In fact the first cow I bought came bulling around a month after calving 2 years in a row.

OP, keep breeding from her. You may find she takes first time next year.

Tornbrook

onyerbikepat - Fertility is so important. I was really considering fattening her up and sending her off a few months ago.

trixi2011

Tornbrook wrote: »

Buford T. Justice V - cheers for the advice.

Think i'll keep her, docile animal, with decent breeding.
would you recommend using Estrumate and or Receptol treatment each time? it adds a bit of cost but does help in timing AI and hopefully improving conception.

Wouldn't be that well up on pedigree breeding but always found that the conseption rates in dairy cows to be lower if heat was brought on by estrimate

Genghis Cant

Getting a first calver back in calf can often be the trickiest. She's after a calving, rearing a calf and still developing herself.
She could be much easier after this.

Tornbrook

trixi2011 wrote: »

Wouldn't be that well up on pedigree breeding but always found that the conseption rates in dairy cows to be lower if heat was brought on by estrimate

I used estrimate after 75 days or so because my cow didnt show any signs of heat. But thanks for letting me know.

All information is welcomed.

trixi2011

Tornbrook wrote: »

I used estrimate after 75 days or so because my cow didnt show any signs of heat. But thanks for letting me know.

All information is welcomed.

Eatrimate is great to get cows back cycling again just the chance of conception is less than if she came naturally if she doesn't hold to service brought on by esteimate her following natural cycle 21 days later will have a much higher chance of conception

Tornbrook

trixi2011 wrote: »

Eatrimate is great to get cows back cycling again just the chance of conception is less than if she came naturally if she doesn't hold to service brought on by esteimate her following natural cycle 21 days later will have a much higher chance of conception

I used estrimate once and she cycled every 21days afterwards. she just didnt hold.
The cow is kept on my father in laws land, the vet called one afternoon to look at an injured animal.
he said we should give my cow an injection after AI, after a bit of google I found out the injection should be Receptol, gave that to her along with two AI straws 12 hours apart, then another shot of receptol 11 days after that.

Kovu

Tornbrook wrote: »

he said we should give my cow an injection after AI, after a bit of google I found out the injection should be Receptol, gave that to her along with two AI straws 12 hours apart, then another shot of receptol 11 days after that.

Jaysus, I think even I'd go incalf with that

We've had a couple of heifers similar to that over the years, endless repeating until the injection at AI & after it. We blooded one to see if any reasoning behind it & found her very low in a couple of things, I think it was iodine & something else. I don't know if many others do it but we often stick two straws into the one cow at AI if she's repeated a couple of times. Even this year we've a cow that's having either a blue or a Charolais

greysides

Tornbrook wrote: »

would you recommend using Estrumate and or Receptol treatment each time? it adds a bit of cost but does help in timing AI and hopefully improving conception.

No, FFS. If she's that reliant on artificial help hang her up. What good is that to the breed?

onyerbikepat

greysides wrote: »

No, FFS. If she's that reliant on artificial help hang her up. What good is that to the breed?

Maybe you should go talk to The Limousin Society. A lot of bulls being used now, especially from the UK, are very poor for both milk and fertility. No red rosettes handed out for how a cow breeds, just how she looks. Sad but true.

Tornbrook

greysides wrote: »

No, FFS. If she's that reliant on artificial help hang her up. What good is that to the breed?

Hard to know? Pedigree cattle are known for being more difficult to go in calf.
To be honest I strongly considered hanging her up, She held to AI the last time with use of injection hence the reason she's still around.
I think its cross-breds for me from here on to be honest. I think there is a market for well bred pedigree Bulls and Heifers all the same.

Tornbrook

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Maybe you should go talk to The Limousin Society. A lot of bulls being used now, especially from the UK, are very poor for both milk and fertility. No red rosettes handed out for how a cow breeds, just how she looks. Sad but true.

I called the Limousin society about recommended bulls, they were helpful and gave me some good info.
Although fertility was not mentioned at any time in the conversation.

greysides

If someone has 10 pedigree cows and one needs help to go in-calf, I see that as fair enough. If 9 need help................

Tornbrook

Kovu wrote: »

Jaysus, I think even I'd go incalf with that

We've had a couple of heifers similar to that over the years, endless repeating until the injection at AI & after it. We blooded one to see if any reasoning behind it & found her very low in a couple of things, I think it was iodine & something else. I don't know if many others do it but we often stick two straws into the one cow at AI if she's repeated a couple of times. Even this year we've a cow that's having either a blue or a Charolais

I gave her a bolus for copper and selenium about 6 weeks before breeding.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Tornbrook wrote: »

Buford T. Justice V - cheers for the advice.

Think i'll keep her, docile animal, with decent breeding.
would you recommend using Estrumate and or Receptol treatment each time? it adds a bit of cost but does help in timing AI and hopefully improving conception.

As greysides said, i wouldn't be in favour of repeated use of fertility treatments.

Eventually you will want to keep a heifer off her to either replace her or expand the pedigree herd.

Fertility is passed on in the breeding so if the mother needs repeated help each year to go in-calf then i wouldn't want to keep her calf because she would be below average for going in-calf, taking that from her mother.

I wouldn't get too hung up on problems with going in-calf for the second time. Genghis hit the nail on the head, with her still growing and feeding a calf, there is a lot going on at the one time. But if you have to do it each time, i would consider moving her on.

Best of luck with her anyway:)

tanko

Kovu wrote: »

Jaysus, I think even I'd go incalf with that

We've had a couple of heifers similar to that over the years, endless repeating until the injection at AI & after it. We blooded one to see if any reasoning behind it & found her very low in a couple of things, I think it was iodine & something else. I don't know if many others do it but we often stick two straws into the one cow at AI if she's repeated a couple of times. Even this year we've a cow that's having either a blue or a Charolais

I've four cows here that will have either a Lim or a Sim calf. Two of them were Ai'ed in the morning and were still bulling away that evening so fired another straw into them.
Wasn't sure if I did two others right so put in another straw at the same time just to make sure.
I could be wrong about this but I think I read somewhere that if a cow is inseminated/bulled to two different breeds of bulls it increases conception rates. Survival of the fittest so to speak:D

jaymla627

Receptol is being used to great affect on high yielding herds worldwide, friend working over on a 20,000 cow farm in Saudi arabi says a shot of receptol is given to everything when being served....going to try it myself this year on anything getting sexed straws

charolais0153

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

As greysides said, i wouldn't be in favour of repeated use of fertility treatments.

Eventually you will want to keep a heifer off her to either replace her or expand the pedigree herd.

Fertility is passed on in the breeding so if the mother needs repeated help each year to go in-calf then i wouldn't want to keep her calf because she would be below average for going in-calf, taking that from her mother.

I wouldn't get too hung up on problems with going in-calf for the second time. Genghis hit the nail on the head, with her still growing and feeding a calf, there is a lot going on at the one time. But if you have to do it each time, i would consider moving her on.

Best of luck with her anyway:)

idk about that I had a cow that would come bulling 6 weeks after calving each year kept a fine chx heifer off her gave an angus bull ,calved at 2 years but she didnt come bulling tell nearly july got rid of her next year, same problem, I thought I read somewhere that fertility runs through the genes by only15% might be wrong though

Milked out

jaymla627 wrote: »

Receptol is being used to great affect on high yielding herds worldwide, friend working over on a 20,000 cow farm in Saudi arabi says a shot of receptol is given to everything when being served....going to try it myself this year on anything getting sexed straws

Any studies or papers on it to back it up?

Buford T. Justice XIX

charolais0153 wrote: »

idk about that I had a cow that would come bulling 6 weeks after calving each year kept a fine chx heifer off her gave an angus bull ,calved at 2 years but she didnt come bulling tell nearly july got rid of her next year, same problem, I thought I read somewhere that fertility runs through the genes by only15% might be wrong though

The old saying,'infertility is inherited' might have been a better example. Yes, the trait has low heritability, but if you want fertile heifers the best place to start is with fertile cows.

Another example would be crossbreeding where another breed is used as a sire and gives a boost over what would be expected from their individual figures.

I agree that sometimes you get a dud but equally you can get a diamond as well.

It's one of the things that bugs me, tbh. The Bull used is half the herd but so too is the cow. If you only breed from the best bulls then you only get half the improvement of breeding from the best bulls and the best cows.

I hope that is explained a bit better?