Purchasing property with Title issues

cavanman

I am considering a property purchase at the moment. The property is an old warehouse in a city suburb which was originally part of a long established industrial yard. The intention would be to demolish the existing building which is in a state of serious disrepair and construct a new build, residential property. There is significant road frontage to a quiet but adequate road so access is not likely to be an issue. The original owner had gotten planning permission for a large development of which this warehouse formed part but has subsequently lost control of the property and planning has lapsed. Area is zoned residential.

All good but here is the issue.

Since this warehouse formed part of a larger property owned for a long time by the original owners and is now being sold off as a separate entity there are significant title issues and is being sold as such.

Statement from vendor's solicitor

The Title is not clean. There are numerous issues in relation to First Registration, Planning, Identity, an outstanding Leasehold Interest and numerous special condition in the contract.

Our client will only consider a sale of “warts and all” or nothing at present – to the degree that raising pre contract queries is borderline irrelevant. The sale will not be considered subject to any conditions or warranties to assist the purchaser. If a sale is agreed it will also be on the condition that contracts are signed and returned within a strict 14 days with a closing 7 days after signing - no delays will be considered

Also, although vacant, the previous owners have a long term lease over the property with approximately twenty years remaining. There is also a boundary dispute.

In truth I have never been involved in a property purchase with so many issues but if I thought the sale could be completed without exorbitant additional expense I would make an offer. No funding is required on my part for the purchase and there is no urgency in developing the site.

Would appreciate feedback on the following.

Likely issues in completing this sale if my offer was to be accepted
Likely costs involved in completing this purchase, thousands, tens of thousands???
General advice and recommendations

Thanking you in advance...

goz83

Can of worms.

Big risk.

Red flag.

Buyer beware.

What's behind box number 1?

Personally, I would stay away if there was any one of the mentioned problems. You'll be in for a few grey hairs if you jump on that wagon.

littlemac1980

Well you can't say the Vendor isn't upfront with you.

That said - there's no real detail in the extract of the letter you provided to answer your queries.

Even if there was - it couldn't be done here.

Only one proper way to proceed if you are still interested in buying the property - get a solicitor who will deal with it for you (It might prove tough and expensive - given the short-time frame involved - but's its certainly not impossible)

They need to examine the whole situation and advise you on it properly. Once they've done that, its up to you what you decide.

One way or another you're gonna need a solicitor at some stage - you have a much better chance of getting one and of buying something worth paying for if you retain a solicitor at the outset rather than trying to get one to fix a mess you've gotten into without their help and are hoping to get out of.

coylemj

littlemac1980 wrote: »

One way or another you're gonna need a solicitor at some stage - you have a much better chance of getting one and of buying something worth paying for if you retain a solicitor at the outset rather than trying to get one to fix a mess you've gotten into without their help and are hoping to get out of.

In general terms that is good advice but the reality is that the OP would simply be paying someone to tell him to run a mile. The Ts & Cs as set out by the vendor's solicitor clearly state that you are buying a pig in a poke and you will have no comeback if/when it all ends in tears.

And if the OP does go ahead and builds a residential property there as he proposes, how is he going to sell it? Any prospective buyer will find it impossible to raise a loan because of the legal can of worms.

littlemac1980

coylemj wrote: »

In general terms that is good advice but the reality is that the OP would simply be paying someone to tell him to run a mile. The Ts & Cs as set out by the vendor's solicitor clearly state that you are buying a pig in a poke and you will have no comeback if/when it all ends in tears.

And if the OP does go ahead and builds a residential property there as he proposes, how is he going to sell it? Any prospective buyer will find it impossible to raise a loan because of the legal can of worms.

Yes that's true, but I suppose the reality also remains that for people without specific knowledge of certain aspects of law including land law, it's often the case that the long term implications of issues that are disclosed to them may not be apparent.

My suggestion of getting a solicitor involved is simply so that, if it's the case, that despite the vendor's disclosures, the OP may still be considering going ahead and taking a "punt" on the property - which still appears to be the case - that at least he is fully aware of the issues and implications of such in advance of doing so.

So if the OP is still considering purchasing then instead of spending €100K (or how ever much it is on the property), and not really being sure what he's in for in the future, spend €1K or so on a solicitor now so that at least someone can then tell you what problems are likely to occur and how serious each of those may turn out to be. In all likelihood that solicitor will then strongly advise you not to buy, but at least then the decision to take a risk or not will be well informed.

But as Coyle says the money you spend on the solicitor could be money down the tube as well, but at least its a relatively small amount in the scheme of things.

coylemj

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Yes that's true, but I suppose the reality also remains that for people without specific knowledge of certain aspects of law including land law, it's often the case that the long term implications of issues that are disclosed to them may not be apparent.

That's definitely the most eloquent version of 'a fool and his money are soon parted' that I have ever heard.

I tip my hat to you sir.

Your advice to the OP is good, he shouldn't dream of spending a penny or signing anything without legal advice which hopefully will open his eyes as to what's on offer.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

nuac

Unless one desperately needed this property e..g because you owned the property beside it, avoid.

The vendor's solicitor has frankly flagged problems, including a mysterious lease over the property.
,

MarkAnthony

Not a legal perspective but once proper advice has been taken a business decision needs to be made. Only you know if it's worth the punt.

cavanman

Thanks to all for your comments.

If I were to proceed with this purchase my primary objectives would be

1. Obtaining proper title for the property
2. Terminate the existing lease on the property
3. Obtain planning permission

As mentioned, the previous owner who I have contact details for is no longer trading on the premises, the property is vacant and the sale is being instigated by a financial institute.

What I would really appreciate is if somebody with experience in this area might be able to list some of the critical tasks that would be need to be completed in order to achieve title.

I assume that getting the existing tenant to relinquishing there lease on the property would be an essential first step.

coylemj

cavanman wrote: »

What I would really appreciate is if somebody with experience in this area might be able to list some of the critical tasks that would be need to be completed in order to achieve title.

As well as the mess about the title, you threw in a grenade in the middle of your first post 'and there is a boundary dispute' so you can't expect to get any advice of value here since we (and probably you) have no idea what that dispute is about.

Let me be blunt here - stop trying to do this on the cheap. Get a solicitor or get off the pot.

K.Flyer

Why would you even consider purchasing a potential minefield, would you buy a car if the log book details looked a bit dodgy, I doubt it.

Personally, I would turn and walk away.

Carawaystick

I guess this depends on the price.
If it was going for a song its a gamble with significant upside, but the op'd want to be able to lose the money without hurting too much.

Uno my Uno.

The OP is essentially considering taking what is presumably a significant amount of cash, putting it in a paper bag, setting light to the paper bag and hoping that the bag burns without setting fire to the money. Rather than asking an expert on paper and fire if that is likely, he has decided to ask strangers on the internet.

OP if you are actually serious about this you ought to understand that it is essential that you need a solicitor to review the contracts and title, they would be able to answer all of your questions after doing so. If you aren't prepared to pay a solicitor to do that you are either not serious about the property or already know that it is not really a viable prospect or understand so little about the risks of buying property that you should not be considering buying anything.

Or all three.

I say consult a Solicitor, only then will you understand what the defects on title are and how they can be remedied if at all. Doing anything else is just random speculation on your part.

xraylady

Just came across this post but still in shock after being told that 11K due on our purchase of 13K .
Property was originally bought between 3 people (2 couples and 1 single) and now the two couples are buying the other out, for the princely sum of 13K. Again, there was problem with title but this was discovered 15 yrs ago when it was bought and at that time Counsel opinion was sought and it was dealt with (apparently). Now we have been told that fee for conveyancing, NEW Counsel opinion due to title problems (same counsel btw as 15 yrs ago) and other matter of changing ownership details on deeds will be 13K. (It was originally bought by 2 couples and one single, but at the time, names of 5 people were put on deeds each given 1/5th share instead of 2 couples and single in 1/3rds. This was never intended by us.) All parties are agreeable to all of this so no problems in that area, but its just, 13K!!

Uno my Uno.

xraylady wrote: »

Just came across this post but still in shock after being told that 11K due on our purchase of 13K .
Property was originally bought between 3 people (2 couples and 1 single) and now the two couples are buying the other out, for the princely sum of 13K. Again, there was problem with title but this was discovered 15 yrs ago when it was bought and at that time Counsel opinion was sought and it was dealt with (apparently). Now we have been told that fee for conveyancing, NEW Counsel opinion due to title problems (same counsel btw as 15 yrs ago) and other matter of changing ownership details on deeds will be 13K. (It was originally bought by 2 couples and one single, but at the time, names of 5 people were put on deeds each given 1/5th share instead of 2 couples and single in 1/3rds. This was never intended by us.) All parties are agreeable to all of this so no problems in that area, but its just, 13K!!

em... What?

MarkAnthony