60 KM limit on M50 at rush hour proposed

C.K Dexter Haven

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/60-kmh-speed-limit-would-be-absurd-for-the-m50-aa-31000714.html

My own belief is that the M50 is riddled with design flaws that promote accidents - the exit heading Northbound onto the M4 is a case in point, and that's outside of rush hour.

if you can even achieve 60KPH @ rush hour on the M50, good luck to ya!

jeepers101

C.K Dexter Haven wrote: »

if you can even achieve 60KPH @ rush hour on the M50, good luck to ya!

I think the idea is to reduce it to 60kph before people start slamming on the breaks at rush hour

CiniO

Well it won't be long until we'll need a flagman in front of every car.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_traffic_laws

Reg'stoy

Flow dynamics, there is a cascade effect due to gobsh1tes lane hopping and causing others to brake. Car brakes and car behind takes slightly longer to brake and so on until eventually traffic comes to stop further down the chain.

Studies have shown that by reducing the speed limit for traffic to travel at actually stops this effect and therefore increases the actual speed of traffic and so reduces journey time.

Travel the M50 twice a day and would welcome this reduction in the limit as currently we are in reality only doing 20-30kph as is. All too often you see gobsh1tes filter on and jump immediately into center and then right lane causing traffic to brake which in turn leads to an overall reduction in speed.

Eduction doesn't work with Irish drivers as in proper lane discipline and allowing traffic to filter in from your left or jumping into lanes and causing other drivers to brake. Therefore the large stick is required, but knowing Irish drivers they will ignore it so would like to see it enforced by cameras when a reduction like this is required; yes I said cameras.

C.K Dexter Haven

Reg'stoy wrote: »

Flow dynamics, there is a cascade effect due to gobsh1tes lane hopping and causing others to brake. Car brakes and car behind takes slightly longer to brake and so on until eventually traffic comes to stop further down the chain.

Studies have shown that by reducing the speed limit for traffic to travel at actually stops this effect and therefore increases the actual speed of traffic and so reduces journey time.

Travel the M50 twice a day and would welcome this reduction in the limit as currently we are in reality only doing 20-30kph as is. All too often you see gobsh1tes filter on and jump immediately into center and then right lane causing traffic to brake which in turn leads to an overall reduction in speed.

Eduction doesn't work with Irish drivers as in proper lane discipline and allowing traffic to filter in from your left or jumping into lanes and causing other drivers to brake. Therefore the large stick is required, but knowing Irish drivers they will ignore it so would like to see it enforced by cameras when a reduction like this is required; yes I said cameras.

Shirley lane hopping has little to do with imposed speed limits and a lot to do with ignorant behaviour?

PS- all for cameras to change behaviour but not for an imposed 60kph speed limit

Long Time Lurker

I can never understand why there's not an unbroken white line between the inside and outside lanes of any motorway for the kilometre run up to and from an off ramp. The idea being that you'd have to have moved into the lane nearest your exit at least 1km before you leave the motorway. Simple.really and very easy to enforce. Guards see you breaking the white line and it's a fine and some points.

CatFromHue

What education though?

An awful lot of road users at the moment have had no education or testing on how to drive on a motorway.

jimbis

Maybe now all those empty gantrys on the m50 might actually have some use :P.
It can work and could benefit rush hour but only if it's operated and monitored properly. Which in this country I can't be too hopefully of.

Chris_Heilong

They should trial run it before implementing to see what impact it has.

Reg'stoy

C.K Dexter Haven wrote: »

Shirley lane hopping has little to do with imposed speed limits and a lot to do with ignorant behaviour?

PS- all for cameras to change behaviour but not for an imposed 60kph speed limit

You obviously don't travel the M50 in the mornings so, traffic joins in left lane and jumps into lane to their right into a small enough gap which causes the traffic traveling behind to brake and so the vicious circle begins. It is this brake and brake effect, partly due to lane hopping that requires this reduced speed limit to be imposed.

The cameras would be used very little at the time when a 60kph limit would be required and so as with the Irish in general the big stick threat of the camera might concentrate the mind.

Oh and.....

ironclaw

A few mornings a week, they should put a warning sign on the overhead panels saying 'Warning: Move to Left Lane' and see what happens.

I'd be for a 60 / 70 limit. I don't get much faster anyway. The problem is, the same cameras will enforce the 100km/h limit at 2am when its entirely unnecessary. M50 is a road that could greatly benefit from dynamic speed limits.

C.K Dexter Haven

Reg'stoy wrote: »

You obviously don't travel the M50 in the mornings so, traffic joins in left lane and jumps into lane to their right into a small enough gap which causes the traffic traveling behind to brake and so the vicious circle begins. It is this brake and brake effect, partly due to lane hopping that requires this reduced speed limit to be imposed.

The cameras would be used very little at the time when a 60kph limit would be required and so as with the Irish in general the big stick threat of the camera might concentrate the mind.

Oh and.....

ah Shirley, the most accidents happen PM, not AM on the M50. Traffic most days on M50 AM is like a carpark- evening time, it's more like a rat race- if there was any argument for a 60kph time it would be PM in my opinion

Desolation Of Smug

CatFromHue wrote: »

What education though?

An awful lot of road users at the moment have had no education or testing on how to drive on a motorway.

As in 100%? Not in the current or past tests. Toddle around the local town, good lad, here's a licence..off you go...

TheQuietFella

People have a phobia about using the left lane. They prefer to sit & straddle the centre lane which in my view slows everyone
down in two lanes & causes a bottleneck in the third!

colm_mcm

They should enforce the law a bit more. Tailgating, undertaking, hogging, speeding etc. they have live cameras, use them.

newmug

MORE speed limits in the country?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?




*Bangs. Head. Off. Corner. Of. Wall. Until. Skull. Splits. And. Brains. Turn. Into. Mush.*

Stheno

What are the gantries on the M50 that people speak of?

edit, I googled it's those stoopid signs that tell you at finglas there are delays to the M11

TheQuietFella

colm_mcm wrote: »

They should enforce the law a bit more. Tailgating, undertaking, hogging, speeding etc. they have cameras, use them.

Unfortunately I have had little option but to undertake on occasion.
I have flashed the lights, honked the horn for the driver to move aside but that's illegal also! So I stay in the left lane & if I happen to undertake which is not my intention to do so, I'll just carry on up to the next exit.

Voodoomelon

Surely it would be worthwhile to allocate even just two additional Traffic Corps vehicles, soley to the M50. Just pull people all day long for offences, enforcing proper lane usage, points and fines for dangerous maneovers etc.

If it became known that the M50 was well policed, things might improve.

Although you could argue its like pissing in the wind...

colm_mcm

^^^ it would pay for itself!

quadrifoglio verde

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Surely it would be worthwhile to allocate even just two additional Traffic Corps vehicles, soley to the M50. Just pull people all day long for offences, enforcing proper lane usage, points and fines for dangerous maneovers etc.

If it became known that the M50 was well policed, things might improve.

Although you could argue its like pissing in the wind...

Not really. I'd hazard a guess that most people don't realise they're doing something wrong by driving in the first overtaking lane when they're not overtaking. Its not just the m50 it's a problem on either, it's all three lane roads. Pull someone over for middle lane hogging, give them a rollicking, slap them with points and a fine and they'll tell there friends and family. Message would spread like wild fire.

However if you let the situation continue as is with no one getting pulled for driving in the wrong lane, then you won't see any changes.

That's the biggest problem with the m50 for me. I've to move from the driving lane to the inside over taking lane to pass out the driver in the middle lane and move back into the driving lane to only then repeat it again. My normal m50 journey without traffic consists of constant zig zags. When traffic is present so that the middle lane moves around 80 I just sit in the overtaking lane and overtake at 100 or so and move in for anyone faster. I'm still overtaking, but I could overtake in the middle lane if the cars I was overtaking were driving in the actual driving lane which is empty.

Desolation Of Smug

Dunno what all the fuss is about. I drive in the left lane and fly along. There's feck all no-one else in it...N7 especially...

Stheno

Desolation Of Smug wrote: »

Dunno what all the fuss is about. I drive in the left lane and fly along. There's feck all no-one else in it...N7 especially...

Try getting to Dundrum from Swords for eight in the morning.

RandomAccess

This sounds like the prelude to installation of average speed cameras to go along with the variable limits.

visual

RandomAccess wrote: »

This sounds like the prelude to installation of average speed cameras to go along with the variable limits.

Cameras already in place just drumming up support to utilise them and handing out fines.

Sheldons Brain

visual wrote: »

Cameras already in place just drumming up support to utilise them and handing out fines.

Good. Something is needed.

quadrifoglio verde

Desolation Of Smug wrote: »

Dunno what all the fuss is about. I drive in the left lane and fly along. There's feck all no-one else in it...N7 especially...

its illegal, i prefer to keep my licence point free so I can risk some of them elsewhere :pac:

visual

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Good. Something is needed.

We have enough taxes and stupid laws

speed cameras won't help M50 traffic at peak times when it's little more than stop start driving

the problem is a poorly design motorway running at full capacity. It can't be made wider , only option is to get slipway to empty quicker. But crazy revenue generating schemes are always put forward as the solution.

ironclaw

visual wrote: »

Cameras already in place just drumming up support to utilise them and handing out fines.

There's no cameras in place capable of issuing a fine. Its a whole other kettle of fish. There is however lines painted many years and the gantries are pretty much ready to go, you just need to install the camera systems. The cameras in place are basic ANPR.

I'm guessing, as has been said, its a prelude to tolling the entire M50 with variable speed limits with speed limit enforcement.

The M50 is a perfectly ok road. There is just zero driver education before you get on it and zero enforcement once you are.

_Kaiser_

The issue here is the M in M50 really, as evidenced by all the "keep left" comments above

The reality is that with the volume of traffic and close proximity of multiple exits/merges (particularly between junction 6-11), normal motorway rules CANNOT apply - not helped by the amount of learners that are on it as well, and some really badly designed junctions (like the Ballymount north merge which immediately becomes the Naas road exit).

I've no issue with variable speed limits as long as they're used intelligently and not just a generic "between 4pm and 7pm you cannot exceed 60 km/h regardless of the conditions" .. knowing Ireland however, I won't be surprised if the latter is what we get, but parallel to this the road should be declassified and ALL lanes used as driving lanes in peak times (as this is what happens anyway)

Personally I've a bigger issue with this proposed 20 km/h limit in residential areas. More ridiculous nanny-stateism and motorist scapegoating because (some) parents think that rather than teaching them to stay away from the road when playing (like probably most of us were taught as kids ourselves), the responsibility for watching (out for) their kids should lie with random strangers in cars... and I say this as a parent of a toddler myself who is being taught about road safety and watching out for cars every time he goes out for a walk

Caliden

Stheno wrote: »

Try getting to Dundrum from Swords for eight in the morning.

I shed a tear for you. That's a bloody nightmare of a journey that's only gotten worse in the past 3 years.

Would probably take the same amount of time if you went through the city centre and would be less stressful

keithclancy

A variable speed limit that changes depending on the amount of traffic would be much better than a 60 km/h speed limit at rush hour.

Could also be activated when there is an accident or some other unusual event that causes heavy traffic.

I for one think imposing a speed limit during rush hour traffic is a great idea, you just have to compare the German Motorway without Variable speed limits to the Dutch motorways with speed limits when the traffic is heavy.

You can sit in a huge German traffic jam and have this stupid stop start driving each time the wave of cars starting and stopping reaches you, or you can have the dutch way of moving slowly without stopping and starting.

Autobahn without a speed limit during rush hour is a bloody curse.

TheDoc

At this stage I'm open to anything.

I'm getting sick and tired of the commute length its taking me on the M50 from Swords to Parkwest. It's light this week with the schools off, but normally its about an hour or just over, which is a joke. I've started aiming to come into work for 9:30 - 9:45 and find it is a lot faster, although it means I don't leave for home until 6:00 - 6:15

My commute used to be Swords - City Centre and I thought there was nothing worse, but Swords - Park west via M1 &M50 is now on par with it, in some cases longer. ridiculous.

visual

ironclaw wrote: »

There's no cameras in place capable of issuing a fine. Its a whole other kettle of fish. There is however lines painted many years and the gantries are pretty much ready to go, you just need to install the camera systems. The cameras in place are basic ANPR.

I'm guessing, as has been said, its a prelude to tolling the entire M50 with variable speed limits with speed limit enforcement.

The M50 is a perfectly ok road. There is just zero driver education before you get on it and zero enforcement once you are.

It's the back end system that generates information for fines and M50 is littered with ANPR cameras and induction loops in road.
The information on big displays telling you journey time is avg speed calculated from the ANPR cameras. Also same ANPR cameras installed on nearly every motorway. At moment none of these cameras are earning their keep but you can be sure when there is enough political will these will be new cash cow

650Ginge

visual wrote: »

We have enough taxes and stupid laws

speed cameras won't help M50 traffic at peak times when it's little more than stop start driving

the problem is a poorly design motorway running at full capacity. It can't be made wider , only option is to get slipway to empty quicker. But crazy revenue generating schemes are always put forward as the solution.

My understanding is its not illegal to pass on the left if the traffic on the right is moving slower.

If you move to the left to overtake then that's illegal. Not illegal to drive in the left lane into space in front of you.

Could be wrong but it's the way I tackle m50, left lane set cruise at slowest other vehicle and relax. Used to try to make progress lane changing but didn't work just got stressed.

ironclaw

visual wrote: »

It's the back end system that generates information for fines and M50 is littered with ANPR cameras and induction loops in road.
The information on big displays telling you journey time is avg speed calculated from the ANPR cameras. Also same ANPR cameras installed on nearly every motorway. At moment none of these cameras are earning their keep but you can be sure when there is enough political will these will be new cash cow

Sure what would I know... :rolleyes:

Brian?

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Unfortunately I have had little option but to undertake on occasion.
I have flashed the lights, honked the horn for the driver to move aside but that's illegal also! So I stay in the left lane & if I happen to undertake which is not my intention to do so, I'll just carry on up to the next exit.

If you pass on the left while doing the speed limit, you're not breaking the law. The law states you can move past slower moving traffic. It's a different story if you dive into the left lane and accelerate hard.

I "undertake" in every 3 lane road in the country. I stick to the left most lane unless overtaking while doing the speed limit. It's the people in the middle and right hand overtaking lanes that are breaking the law by just sitting there. Most people are oblivious to this.

positron

TheDoc wrote: »

My commute used to be Swords - City Centre and I thought there was nothing worse, but Swords - Park west via M1 &M50 is now on par with it, in some cases longer. ridiculous.

What's worse is you have a decent bus service between Swords and City Center, where as Swords - Park West you are stuffed if you can't / won't drive!

I am on M50 everyday on a motorbike and as I filter past all the cars, the bottleneck seems to be between N3 to N7 section (southbound), and the opposite in the other direction. I always fancied the idea of a dedicated "thru lane" for people who join M50 before N3/J6 and planning on continuing past N7/J10.

Caliden

positron wrote: »

What's worse is you have a decent bus service between Swords and City Center, where as Swords - Park West you are stuffed if you can't / won't drive!

I am on M50 everyday on a motorbike and as I filter past all the cars, the bottleneck seems to be between N3 to N7 section (southbound), and the opposite in the other direction. I always fancied the idea of a dedicated "thru lane" for people who join M50 before N3/J6 and planning on continuing past N7/J10.

I think it's the same with most on the M50, they don't want to be there but have no alternative.


Public services have been left fall apart in the past 10 years and each Government just kicks the can down the road with short term fixes (more lanes, incentives for private investors to pick up the slack of failing public services, i.e. privitisation of bus routes).

ironclaw

Caliden wrote: »

I think it's the same with most on the M50, they don't want to be there but have no alternative.

My trip to work is about 25 mins by car. At worst, 40 mins and that would be rare. I'm in the lucky position that from door to door, I don't have a single set of traffic lights. Same for the trip home. By bus, I shudder to think how long it would take me and how much it would cost. I'd need at minimum two Luas journeys or 2 / 3 buses. With a stop in the city centre. I'm guessing, 90 mins to 2 hours easily.

Sorry, but I'll drive. Life is way, way too short for that.

Caliden

ironclaw wrote: »

My trip to work is about 25 mins by car. At worst, 40 mins and that would be rare. I'm in the lucky position that from door to door, I don't have a single set of traffic lights. Same for the trip home. By bus, I shudder to think how long it would take me and how much it would cost. I'd need at minimum two Luas journeys or 2 / 3 buses. With a stop in the city centre. I'm guessing, 90 mins to 2 hours easily.

Sorry, but I'll drive. Life is way, way too short for that.

Exact same story for me and I live a 15 minute walk from Stephen's Green.

It's a 20 minute drive or 1.5 hrs by 2 buses

Idbatterim

I shed a tear for you. That's a bloody nightmare of a journey that's only gotten worse in the past 3 years.

Would probably take the same amount of time if you went through the city centre and would be less stressful

this is why the port tunnel should be charging less IMO, get it up to its max capacity, it would ease congestion on M50... You could then chose to drive through through town mainly against the flow of traffic to get to Dundrum, Sandyford Business Park etc... Or charge less for cars occupied by two or more people...

munchkin_utd

Brian? wrote: »

If you pass on the left while doing the speed limit, you're not breaking the law. The law states you can move past slower moving traffic. It's a different story if you dive into the left lane and accelerate hard.
<snip>.

can someone actually quote the law to see what it says?

its the one idiotic and frustrating thing about irish road law is that its diluted among almost 100 years of acts which layer and supercede previous versions meaning a normal human cannot actually know the law and what he is supposed to be, but even still, is there an actual law for overtaking on these new fangled multi lane highways in the first place?

i can say though that the last I heard there is already a law in place to allow variable speed limits, which is what this here is about.
Simply put, its better to have traffic flowing at a steady 40 or 50 or 60, than have a 100 limit and the traffic sitting completely still due to the concertina effect, so its a good thing what they are "proposing" (even though law and infrastructure are already in place, so its more a notice that its coming than anything)

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

this is why the port tunnel should be charging less IMO, get it up to its max capacity, it would ease congestion on M50... You could then chose to drive through through town mainly against the flow of traffic to get to Dundrum, Sandyford Business Park etc... Or charge less for cars occupied by two or more people...

This. €10 for a private car to use the port tunnel at the time people go and come home from work is a joke.

I had to use it recently when i came to J3 on the M50 around 8am to 3 lanes at a standstill as i had to be at work by 915 i came off at Finglas and came back towards the port tunnel. i must of passed a handful of trucks and about 3 cars in the tunnel. Had the privilege of paying €10 and then another €1.75 at the east link.

Totally under utilized imo while the M50 is taking the traffic from nearly all North Co Dublin and beyond.

Sheldons Brain

visual wrote: »

We have enough taxes and stupid laws

speed cameras won't help M50 traffic at peak times when it's little more than stop start driving

Speed cameras will help if they are enforcing an appropriate variable speed limit, the average speed may not be very different but the stop start element will be reduced.

cros13

munchkin_utd wrote: »

can someone actually quote the law to see what it says?

its the one idiotic and frustrating thing about irish road law is that its diluted among almost 100 years of acts which layer and supercede previous versions meaning a normal human cannot actually know the law and what he is supposed to be, but even still, is there an actual law for overtaking on these new fangled multi lane highways in the first place?

i can say though that the last I heard there is already a law in place to allow variable speed limits, which is what this here is about.
Simply put, its better to have traffic flowing at a steady 40 or 50 or 60, than have a 100 limit and the traffic sitting completely still due to the concertina effect, so its a good thing what they are "proposing" (even though law and infrastructure are already in place, so its more a notice that its coming than anything)

For the rules on three lane motorways see page 143: http://www.rotr.ie/rules-of-the-road-eng.pdf

For undertaking:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a9

Section 10 5 (c):
A driver may overtake on the left in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

The issue here being that there is no codified definition of "slow moving traffic". It's down to the opinion of the garda if you get stopped.

In Germany the rule is you can pass traffic doing 50km/h or less at no more than 20 km/h difference in speed.