Stainless Steel Balanced Flue Fabrication

rampantbunny

Hi all. I'm looking at a balanced flue gas fire for installation in a new self-build.
My preferred unit is to be shipped from the UK.

The balanced flue kit for the product is expensive and might well end up costing as much as the fire itself but more than that it's looking like I'll need some bespoke elbows made to suit the install.

Does anyone know of an Irish company that will manufacture balanced flues? By PM if necessary please.
The flue required is 130/200.

I've an RGII installer looking into a few things for me, but he's not aware of any company doing what I'm looking for. I'm not concerned with loss of warranty if using custom flues (I think some suppliers insist that the manufacturers flue be used and no other).

sky6

Any decent sheet metal shop should be able to manufacture exactly what you want.

Dtp1979

Maybe I'm wrong here, but if the flue isn't to ce standards then surely it can't be used for a gas fire?

rampantbunny

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong here, but if the flue isn't to ce standards then surely it can't be used for a gas fire?

Are you from a gas installation background Dtp1979?
I'm not familiar with the regs but what you say makes sense.

I'm due to have a catch-up with installer today and will put it to him. He didn't indicate it would be an issue when first mentioned.

rightjob!

give MI flues a ring in summerhill meath,they will point you in the right direction

rampantbunny

rightjob! wrote: »

give MI flues a ring in summerhill meath,they will point you in the right direction

Nope..they don't do them or know of anyone that does.

rachaelf750

rampantbunny wrote: »

Nope..they don't do them or know of anyone that does.

Try oriel flues

sky6

Who do you think make all these Flues for the Boiler companies only sheet metal fabricators. Once you tell the company what you want it for they should be able to manufacture it for you.

Dtp1979

But would the flue not need some sort of certification to make it ok for use with a gas fire?

DGOBS

vHi all. I'm looking at a balanced flue gas fire for installation in a new self-build.
My preferred unit is to be shipped from the UK.

The balanced flue kit for the product is expensive and might well end up costing as much as the fire itself but more than that it's looking like I'll need some bespoke elbows made to suit the install.

Does anyone know of an Irish company that will manufacture balanced flues? By PM if necessary please.
The flue required is 130/200.

I've an RGII installer looking into a few things for me, but he's not aware of any company doing what I'm looking for. I'm not concerned with loss of warranty if using custom flues (I think some suppliers insist that the manufacturers flue be used and no other).

Honestly, I think your answer is in your first post, there is a flue available for the product, hence that's what is used for the product, as an RGI may only install the appliance to the manufacturer's instructions (regardless of cost)

Bespoke elbows, if they are bespoke, and not made by the manufacturer, then they are not to be used (bends on flues are extremely important to the correct operation of the plain, don't deviate)

Your RGI has stated he is not aware of any company doing this, rightly so, as the company making the appliance seems to!

Sorry, and I know it's not what you want to hear, but important that it is said.

rampantbunny

DGOBS wrote: »

Honestly, I think your answer is in your first post, there is a flue available for the product, hence that's what is used for the product, as an RGI may only install the appliance to the manufacturer's instructions (regardless of cost)

Bespoke elbows, if they are bespoke, and not made by the manufacturer, then they are not to be used (bends on flues are extremely important to the correct operation of the plain, don't deviate)

Your RGI has stated he is not aware of any company doing this, rightly so, as the company making the appliance seems to!

Sorry, and I know it's not what you want to hear, but important that it is said.

Thanks DGOBS.
As I've come to expect with everything related to a construction project, there are opinions, regs, rules and interpretations.

Last week I'd a chat to a former RGII member, who has now graduated to the role of inspector\auditor. I asked him about the fabrication of flues. He said he would be 'inclined' to use the manufactures flue...but just to ensure I had warranty coverage. Nothing to do with CE marking or operation of the product.

We covered the bespoke bends I'm looking for. They are between 15 to 30 degrees. I'm aware (and the installer and auditor knows) from examining the manufacturers tables that there is a max number of 45s/90s that can be used in a flue run. What I am proposing is no where near encroaching on the max figures provided, so although you say that bends on flues are important to the correct operation/don't deviate, the runs have been examined and considered within tolerances.

On the above, I also contacted the manufacturer when the installer indicated at first glance that the run could be an issue. It was actually my second call to the companies tech dept. I first called them when I was considering the product and wanted to make sure it could be installed within my build. It was confirmed as suitable.
But the installer caused me to doubt the information I got on the first call, but yet again, the manufacturer confirmed that what I was doing was fine and well within tolerances.
Even now, to be absolutely sure, I've also asked the installer to contact the tech guys and maybe ask questions from a position of expertise that I don't have.

DGOBS wrote: »

Your RGI has stated he is not aware of any company doing this, rightly so, as the company making the appliance seems to!

The installer is not aware, but it proves nothing. I've since found an engineering firm that manufacture balanced flue kits in Ireland.
Waiting on them to confirm if they do a kit in the sizes I want and then will ask for technical/warranty/CE details if any.

antoinolachtnai

You don't have anybody standing behind it. The engineering company will certainly stand behind the manufacturing, but you need to ask them if they will be prepared to stand over the design and its suitability for purpose. If they don't do this, will your RGI take this responsibility? Is he/she qualified to do so?

The gear from the manufacturer is expensive, but what you are paying for is not really the metal fabrication, it's their good name, their engineering capability and the support of their technical services.

K.Flyer

It comes down to who will take responsibility in the event of an incident that is related to the installation of a non - manufacturer item being fitted to a gas appliance, in this case, the flue.
IMO, if the manufacturer has the correct item, then that's what should be fitted.
If an incident was to occur, who is the finger going to point to first? The installer of course.
Personally I would be sticking with the fire manufacturers flue and fitting it in accordance with their instructions.

antoinolachtnai

The big advantage of the manufacturer supplied item is that the manufacturer will stand over the whole assembly as a whole. This is a great comfort for the RGI in particular.

DGOBS

Hope that works out for you.

If you can get the manufacturer of the appliance to approve your design on paper (as not to affect your product warranty)

The only people really qualified to advise you on this is either the product manufacturer or the glue manufacturer. The RGIs and Inspectors advise while helpful is just an opinion (as is mine)

Sorry, I wongly assumed your bespoke bends would have been in excess of 2x45deg. Apologies

rampantbunny

I originally didn't include all detail...but as the thread progresses assumptions are being made and meanings read between lines etc. So in an effort to get back to the original question:

Until recently I lived in the UK where I owned a gas fire worth x thousands of euros. Wanted to retain the product after relocation so I contacted the manufacturer to query warranty coverage in ROI. They will not extend the warranty to cover it here so there goes the manufacturers backing and support (I said in my first post that I might lose it but it is in fact gone).

My options:
I considered selling the unit in the UK and buying one here, but there is a large price differential so this is a non-runner.
I rang various independent re-sellers to appraise the reliability of the product. They all confirm that they've not heard of any issues and haven't been contacted for warranty problems; on the whole I'm happy that the appliance will be fine even without the warranty.

What do I need now? - I need a flue.
I spent a lot of money on the original flue in the UK. I can't strip this out and take with me.
If I can safely avoid paying the same manufacturer all over again (especially when they won't extend the warranty to cover the same product in another country even if fitted by competent installer) then I will. Into the bargain, my ideal flue run means a bespoke angle or two so another reason to avoid the manufacturer if possible.
Current installer doesn't see anything wrong with using non-manufacturer flue, neither does the auditor whose opinion I trust above most others.

Where does this leave me? - looking for balanced flue manufacturers.
I understand when posters examine questions posted and read between lines and recommend alternatives...I find it all a positive and helpful.
In this case, t's are crossed and i's dotted so far...so, back to original question if anyone can help.

antoinolachtnai

It's not really the warranty that matters, it's that someone will stand over the safety of the whole assembly. If you have someone who is prepared to do that, it is fine.

sky6

Flues like Fires can be tested to see if suitable. Ask the Fire manufactures what these parameters are and then ask the Flue Manufacturers if the flue they're proposing can operate within that range.

rampantbunny

sky6 wrote: »

Flues like Fires can be tested to see if suitable. Ask the Fire manufactures what these parameters are and then ask the Flue Manufacturers if the flue they're proposing can operate within that range.

Will do. Just waiting on firm to get back to me.

DGOBS

Well,I for one would not stand over fitting a second hand appliance, whatever the circumstances, and there is nothing in the Irish regs that deal with it either. Who would be responsible for the flue and appliance, the installer.

Does the manufacturer see anything wrong with using a spurious flue or did they express an opinion?

Yes flues can be tested, but it's down to who certifies them......
What IS813 says:



CONSTRUCTED AND INSTALLED AS PER THE MANUFACTURER sticks out to me

rampantbunny

DGOBS wrote: »

Well,I for one would not stand over fitting a second hand appliance, whatever the circumstances, and there is nothing in the Irish regs that deal with it either.

Does the manufacturer see anything wrong with using a spurious flue or did they express an opinion?

Yes flues can be tested, but it's down to who certifies them......
What IS813 says:



CONSTRUCTED AND INSTALLED AS PER THE MANUFACTURER sticks out to me

Thanks for the attachment.

No opinion expressed by manufacturer as no opinion sought. But taking a cynical view point I'm sure they'd insist on using only their flue for sales revenue if nothing else. Nevertheless it's a question worth asking them.

To my mind a bespoke/spurious flue could exceed the safety/performance of manufacturers product. The original can only be purchased in 1m lengths therefore there are many joints. I'd be looking for longer runs without joints where possible. All pending testing of course.

DGOBS wrote: »

Well,I for one would not stand over fitting a second hand appliance, whatever the circumstances, and there is nothing in the Irish regs that deal with it either.

It not being dealt with in the Irish regs, does this imply (in your opinion) that once installed from new, there is no option to sell the unit and for a new owner to fit, so the items are essentially install-once then throw away (a fire is for life, not just xmas)?
Do the regs only refer to new products throughout?
I'd find it hard to fathom how refitting an item isn't covered (or if not specifically called out, means it is not allowed). Consider a homeowner that relocates an appliance during renovations, or simply removes it to reattach it later - where do you draw the line.

DGOBS

No the regulations do not specifically cover or prohibit the refitting of second hand or used appliances.

But this causes the issue IMHO as the installer is in no-mans land with regard to them, hence, the installer bears all the responsibility without guidance. Moving home or any other instance, would be the same, fitting a second hand appliance.

To install I would have to be satisfied that all was in good working order etc. before fitting, as if I fitted it and it didn't work (as per manufacturers instructions) lets say safety device didn't work, or a flue now constructed, as a secondary supplier of a flue, who would be responsible?

Not saying it's not allowed or not possible, but always becomes a mine field for the installer to negotiate.

dersawazzie

Just another opinion I never have or would fit a second hand appliance, only cookers might go against that. I certainly would never fit a flue to an appliance not certified by the manufacturer. I've cut more off over the years for additional flues.

Whilst to your credit you are taking a proactive part in trying to source a good quality product, without the manufacturers specific say so that its ok to use, I personally wouldn't have it anywhere near my house let alone fit it and stand over it.

rampantbunny

DGOBS wrote: »

No the regulations do not specifically cover or prohibit the refitting of second hand or used appliances.

But this causes the issue IMHO as the installer is in no-mans land with regard to them, hence, the installer bears all the responsibility without guidance. Moving home or any other instance, would be the same, fitting a second hand appliance.

To install I would have to be satisfied that all was in good working order etc. before fitting, as if I fitted it and it didn't work (as per manufacturers instructions) lets say safety device didn't work, or a flue now constructed, as a secondary supplier of a flue, who would be responsible?

Not saying it's not allowed or not possible, but always becomes a mine field for the installer to negotiate.

Sorry, splitting hairs now, but said earlier that you wouldn't fit in any circumstance. Now if satisfied that the used appliance did work, you would (but with OEM flue only)?

In general terms and IMO, where 'appliance', 'product' etc. is mentioned in any regs it should be understood to mean 'a working appliance' instead of old/used v new (unless stated otherwise). If it is left up to an installers personal interpretation we enter the minefield you mentioned earlier - for both you and the customer. The regs should be amended for clarity.

Secondly, regardless of the product being new or used, as a diligent installer, I would imagine that you would always satisfy yourself that the product works as expected before fitting. You could not assume that a product works just because it is new and shiny - so you end up treating new and used products the same from an installation perspective.

In my case, it comes down to the experts I am employing and their interpretations.
If they are satisfied with a custom flue, satisfied with the product, and more importantly if I'm satisfied that they are competent and have my best interests at heart, then I will proceed.

Whereas an installer might look at the install from the viewpoint of customer satisfaction, they also have to protect themselves and to that end, following the regs and insisting on a manufacturer flue, is the only way forward for many.
My viewpoint will differ. I'm not concerned about protecting myself from customer grievances. Safety is my main concern, economics second. If something goes wrong and the worst happens, it will be of no comfort to me that the manufacturers flue was used regardless of the amount of testing it may have undergone in lab conditions.
But let's call the manufacturers flue for what it is, it's a concentric duct which they most likely source from a third party. Provided the joints (of which there may well be less of in a custom product) are sealed (can probably get a kit from the manufacturer to do this), then the only variable I see currently is the sheet metal used. I would be hard convinced that the manufacturers material is anything other than run of the mill stainless steel sheeting.


So, opinions aired and appreciated, but can I get back to the original question.

DGOBS

No I wouldn't, but just outlining the issue of 'IF' someone was to, as there is no way I could be satisfied that the appliance was in good working order before fitting it. If it was new out of the box, and I fitted it only to find it wasn't working, there would be the manufacturers warranty to fall back on.

Yes, the regulations where something is not covered (such as this case) it is up to the installer to interpret, good luck with having them amended (genuinely).

Whereas an installer might look at the install from the viewpoint of customer satisfaction, they also have to protect themselves and to that end, following the regs and insisting on a manufacturer flue, is the only way forward for many.

Would say for all.

My viewpoint will differ. I'm not concerned about protecting myself from customer grievances. Safety is my main concern, economics second. If something goes wrong and the worst happens, it will be of no comfort to me that the manufacturers flue was used regardless of the amount of testing it may have undergone in lab conditions.

And if it goes wrong and the RGI didn't install with an approved flue?
Or if the appliance was fitted then found not to work, or work with your serious flue, what then for the installer?

But let's call the manufacturers flue for what it is, it's a concentric duct which they most likely source from a third party.

That has been tested and verified as suitable for the appliance, and satisfies the gas regulations.

Provided the joints (of which there may well be less of in a custom product) are sealed (can probably get a kit from the manufacturer to do this), then the only variable I see currently is the sheet metal used. I would be hard convinced that the manufacturers material is anything other than run of the mill stainless steel sheeting

Unless approved by the manufacturer may not satisfy the gas regulations I added for you above.

Look, not being rude or off, but any way you want to slice this up, it comes down to a few things:

Is your installer happy to install, test and certify a secondhand appliance?
Is your installer happy to use a flue or product not recommended or intended by the manufacturer?

At the end of the day it's up to him (the competent person for gas) to make these decisions from himself, as the process is self-certification. And everything is always great, and to spec, and sufficient, and 'will do' as an alternative, until something goes wrong.
And when the fit hits the shan, there is only one person in the frame that will be sitting in front of a judge as 'the competent person' responsible.

Regardless of what we debate back and forward here, it's only opinion.
For what you are doing the regulations are unclear as to regards a 2nd hand appliance, (there is guidance for such in British regs) but is clear as regarding the flue.

So, opinions aired and appreciated, but can I get back to the original question

Thought you got an answer on that, haven't you found someone who will manufacture a flue?

gctest50

rampantbunny wrote: »

............ I would be hard convinced that the manufacturers material is anything other than run of the mill stainless steel sheeting.

would you now ?

heres a few - which one would you thinking of ?


403
410
414
416
416Se
420
420F
422
431
440A
440B
440C

405
409
429
430
430F
430FSe
434
436
442
446


201
202
205
301
302
302B
303
303Se
304
304L
302HQ
304N
305
308
309
309S
310
310S
314
316
316L
316F
316N
317
317L
317LMN
321
330
347
348
384

DGOBS

And even the correct stainless wrongly processed will cause issues (see it in the past where it was guillotined using a blade previously used with mild steel, stainless edges were impregnated with mild and began to rust out)

shedweller

gctest50 wrote: »

would you now ?

heres a few - which one would you thinking of ?


403
410
414
416
416Se
420
420F
422
431
440A
440B
440C

405
409
429
430
430F
430FSe
434
436
442
446


201
202
205
301
302
302B
303
303Se
304
304L
302HQ
304N
305
308
309
309S
310
310S
314
316
316L
316F
316N
317
317L
317LMN
321
330
347
348
384

That would be all stainless available. A quick google shows most flues are made from 316 with options sometimes being available to upgrade to 904L.
Maybe there's other types used??
And is it true that if i have to move my gas boiler just a 100 mm across the wall i have to get a new one because nobody will stand over it? Sorry but thats what i gather from this thread.

gctest50

DGOBS wrote: »

And even the correct stainless wrongly processed will cause issues (see it in the past where it was guillotined using a blade previously used with mild steel, stainless edges were impregnated with mild and began to rust out)

that was my point (should have put it in that post )

- few things are as straightforward as they seem

DGOBS

That would be all stainless available. A quick google shows most flues are made from 316 with options sometimes being available to upgrade to 904L.
Maybe there's other types used??
And is it true that if i have to move my gas boiler just a 100 mm across the wall i have to get a new one because nobody will stand over it? Sorry but thats what i gather from this thread.

In theory, yes, but in practice, your boiler can be checked and tested as operational and correct before moving began, as opposed to a second hand appliance from another property that arrives in a box as 'unknown'. No one said it can't be done, but 'installer beware' is certainly the flavour.

rampantbunny

gctest50 wrote: »

would you now ?

heres a few - which one would you thinking of ?


403
410
414
416
416Se
420
420F
422
431
440A
:
:384

Shortened that there for you because it just got a bit ridiculous.

Wasn't planning on making the flue myself but I'll pass your list to the spurious flue manufacturer...just in-case they don't know that there are different types of steel out there.

rampantbunny

OK...installer seems content, knowing all variables so far.
I'll chat to manufacturer to get their opinion.
Will contact more balanced flue manufacturers (if I get any more names). My options are open until I've gathered all the information and it's properly assessed.

DGOBS wrote: »

Thought you got an answer on that, haven't you found someone who will manufacture a flue?

No harm contacting more than one.
The single company I contacted already make balanced flues so must be some sort of market for them.

Any question on a appliances flueing requirements can only be answered by the manufacturers of the appliance, this prevents any confusion when talking to gas inspectors.

This is a fact in Ireland as well as in the UK.

To fit any flue that's not been OKed by the manufacturers leaves the installation gas engineer open to prosecution in the event of any incident.

DGOBS

Try get the manufacturers OK in writing, just to keep all covered

rampantbunny

DGOBS wrote: »

Try get the manufacturers OK in writing, just to keep all covered

Good advice, will do.

gctest50

rampantbunny wrote: »

Shortened that there for you because it just got a bit ridiculous.

Wasn't planning on making the flue myself but I'll pass your list to the spurious flue manufacturer...just in-case they don't know that there are different types of steel out there.

I'm sure they know what they are at and i'm sure they know much more about steels than i do

My point was to discourage others that may be reading this thread in future that finding a bit of stainless and making it into a flue may or may not work

rampantbunny

gctest50 wrote: »

would you now ?

heres a few - which one would you thinking of ?

gctest50 wrote: »

I'm sure they know what they are at and i'm sure they know much more about steels than i do

My point was to discourage others that may be reading this thread in future that finding a bit of stainless and making it into a flue may or may not work

Fair enough, your intentions were good so no harm done. But hope you can see how your orig post comes across as a confrontation directed squarely at OP.