Draught from attic spaces into new house

PlumbCrazy

Hi
So moved into a new house 6 months ago and have noticed that the kitchen extension and the upstairs bedrooms lose heat very quickly when central heating is turned off. The kitchen is a single story extension at the side of a two storey house. Just got thermal imaging done and its not good, it looks like cold air is coming into the house from the roof / attic where the ceilings meet the walls. Two rooms in particular are frighteningly bad, the kitchen and a bedroom. You can even see where the draught is travelling down the chasings on the walls as the sockets are showing cold. I just cant understand how this is happening, we spent a fortune on what we were told was high spec insulation. The kitchen ceiling has 50mm plasterboard and between the bedrooms and the attic is 200mm of wool insulation and the cavity has been pumped.
We didnt tape the windows / walls prior to plastering as we didnt want to go the passive house route .... but didnt think we were building a seive either.
If anyone has any ideas as to what the problem is and to fix this Id really appreciate it, as you can see posting at 4am means Im worried.
Thanks

hexosan

PlumbCrazy wrote: »

We didnt tape the windows / walls prior to plastering as we didnt want to go the passive house route .... but didnt think we were building a seive either.
Thanks

😱

PlumbCrazy

Definetly not very helpful or correct. There is obviously going to be air coming in when you dont seal with tape that was ok with us and it can clearly be seen on the images but a 10degree difference in temperature for a whole stretch of wall is not acceptable.

hexosan

All the insulation in the world isn't worth much good when you don't address Airtightness as your now currently experiencing.
Without going back and taping the windows & ceiling how do you think your going to stop the air infiltration and solve this problem.

Making your house more airtight is not going down the passive route it's standard practice in all new builds (or at least it should be)

BryanF

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,18749,en.pdf
http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Technical/DEAP/Air_Pressure_Testing/
And building Regs: http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,27316,en.pdf

When did you build? air-tightness testing has been mandatory since the last building Rev update in 2011 ( if not 2008 according to the nsai)

http://www.passipedia.org/planning/airtight_construction/general_principles/blower_door_test

Your not alone in the problem http://www.repository.wit.ie/2046/1/AIR%20TIGHTNESS%20FIELD%20DATA%20FOR%20DWELLINGS%20IN%20IRELAND.doc id recommend a reputable air-tightness tester and air-tightness installer to look/solve at the issues, this can be disruptive and would have been easier achieved when building. I would also be contacting your builder and architect as if you're only in 6 months there will be a defects liability period or did you self build?

BryanF

PlumbCrazy wrote: »

Definetly not very helpful or correct. There is obviously going to be air coming in when you dont seal with tape that was ok with us and it can clearly be seen on the images but a 10degree difference in temperature for a whole stretch of wall is not acceptable.

Not helpful but correct.

Is there a wall cavity? Can it be pumped? Bring the builder back in and tell him to pump it.

PlumbCrazy

Thnaks Bryan
Got planning in 2013, built 2013 / 2014 and moved in August 2014. Air tightness requirements were never mentioned to us or having it tested. We thought we were doing a good thing by spending big on insulation. We heard about taping from someone who was building a passive house but didnt want passive for our own reasons.
You see 80% of the house is fine and thermal imaging provider is happy with it. The other 20% is in my opinion shoddy workmanship as the temperatures are so low relative to the surrounding walls and even with taping would cause issues long term. I consider the thermal imaging money well spent.
Maybe you can explain something to me. I looked at the regs you linked to and none of them specify taping the entire house, its more vague in its terminology. Can you explain what has to be done legally as I know this is going to end up in another intense builder discussion.

BryanF

PlumbCrazy wrote: »

Thnaks Bryan
Got planning in 2013, built 2013 / 2014 and moved in August 2014. Air tightness requirements were never mentioned to us or having it tested. We thought we were doing a good thing by spending big on insulation. We heard about taping from someone who was building a passive house but didnt want passive for our own reasons.
You see 80% of the house is fine and thermal imaging provider is happy with it. The other 20% is in my opinion shoddy workmanship as the temperatures are so low relative to the surrounding walls and even with taping would cause issues long term. I consider the thermal imaging money well spent.
Maybe you can explain something to me. I looked at the regs you linked to and none of them specify taping the entire house, its more vague in its terminology. Can you explain what has to be done legally as I know this is going to end up in another intense builder discussion.

the links are there. the language is vague so you have options in how to comply. http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,18749,en.pdf This link discusses taping and chases. You havent confirmed who specified/certified the building complied with building regs? I'd expect that person to be fighting your corner with the builder. Sorry I can't be of more help but this is definitely a matter to be addressed on site probably with the thermal camera to complement your argument

PlumbCrazy

Hi Bryan
Your reply has been so helpful as I have discovered that we have built to the wrong spec ie no membrane, taping etc. Our Engineer provided the spec. That and shoddy workmanship has us in this sorry state as the regs also say that if wet plastering is done correctly it prevents ingress and we have places where plastering is good and not good.
So anyway, thanks again and have to plan for more difficult conversations.
PC

Calahonda52

OP, can u please describe in some detail the build up of the walls at issue here.
I am particularly interested in any wall vents, drylining etc.
Is bed room in extension?
This extract from the TI work is puzzling. Is the wording yours or theirs?
《Just got thermal imaging done and its not good, it looks like cold air is coming into the house from the roof / attic where the ceilings meet the walls. Two rooms in particular are frighteningly bad, the kitchen and a bedroom. You can even see where the draught is travelling down the chasings on the walls as the sockets are showing cold》
You say u spent big on insulation. The 50 and 200 quoted would not be deemed big

mfceiling

Think of insulation as a coat and airtightness as the zips and the hood.

Not much point going out in the middle of winter and just throwing the coat on and saying "it'll be grand".

Insulation and airtightness work together hand in hand.

PlumbCrazy

Hi Calahonda
Just to answer your questions and hope I have terminology right as Im not in the building trade. The bedroom is not in an extension, its upstairs in two storey house at north west corner. The construction is block with pumped cavity with bead insulation. All external walls are drylined (now realise walls were scudded not plastered prior to attaching drylining so this is the route the draught is travelling). No wall vents, we have window and roof vents. The TI wording is my paraphrase of what we were told. All the "cold spots" are where the ceilings meet roof spaces. I say we spent big as we installed more than the spec provided by our engineer so had to pay more - might as well have burnt it with the information I now know.

Hi MF Ceiling
That is a great explanation and one I will be using in the "conversations" to come. I researched as much as I could but relied heavily on engineer and builder who obviously hadn't a clue. Air tightness was not in the spec and not mentioned as a requirement. All the emphasis was on insulation, we were advised to spend as much as possible on insulating above the spec which is what we did but even that is the bare minimum ....oh this is such a mess. Only positive is having the wit to do the thermal imaging otherwise we'd have had to deal with the damp patches in a few years time.

MicktheMan

PlumbCrazy wrote: »

Hi Bryan
Your reply has been so helpful as I have discovered that we have built to the wrong spec ie no membrane, taping etc. Our Engineer provided the spec. That and shoddy workmanship has us in this sorry state as the regs also say that if wet plastering is done correctly it prevents ingress and we have places where plastering is good and not good.
So anyway, thanks again and have to plan for more difficult conversations.
PC

It sounds to me that there was no specific air tightness target in the contract other than that it should comply with b regs. If this is the case then it is very possible that if the house was tested for air tightness, the house would pass. The reason being that the b regs back stop for air tightness is so poor.

As others have said, insulation has nothing to do with air leakage and pumping the cavity is unlikely to help much. Your best bet is to have the house tested and a detailed plan drawn up on how best to tackle all significant weaknesses found.

MicktheMan

PlumbCrazy wrote: »

otherwise we'd have had to deal with the damp patches in a few years time.

??
what damp patches

BryanF

PlumbCrazy wrote: »

Hi Calahonda
Just to answer your questions and hope I have terminology right as Im not in the building trade. The bedroom is not in an extension, its upstairs in two storey house at north west corner. The construction is block with pumped cavity with bead insulation. All external walls are drylined (now realise walls were scudded not plastered prior to attaching drylining so this is the route the draught is travelling). No wall vents, we have window and roof vents. The TI wording is my paraphrase of what we were told. All the "cold spots" are where the ceilings meet roof spaces. I say we spent big as we installed more than the spec provided by our engineer so had to pay more - might as well have burnt it with the information I now know.

Hi MF Ceiling
That is a great explanation and one I will be using in the "conversations" to come. I researched as much as I could but relied heavily on engineer and builder who obviously hadn't a clue. Air tightness was not in the spec and not mentioned as a requirement. All the emphasis was on insulation, we were advised to spend as much as possible on insulating above the spec which is what we did but even that is the bare minimum ....oh this is such a mess. Only positive is having the wit to do the thermal imaging otherwise we'd have had to deal with the damp patches in a few years time.

I implorer all potiential new home owners to read this post. OP I wish you well in your discussions with builder & engineer

PlumbCrazy

Hi Mick the Man
I mean the inevitable damp patches and other problems we would have with this problem.

Yes Bryan....new build people please take note. I just dont know what we could have done differently as we researched the "engineer" and "builder" and both came highly recommended and as neither of us are in the building trade we followed their "advice". Air tightness was only ever mentioned in the context of heat recovery which wasnt what we wanted.
Anyhow signing off, thanks for constructive advice everyone.

hexosan

I hope some of the professionals on here also take note of this thread it might help them understand why us lay people get so frustrated when every post they put up gets answered with "talk to your professional" "who's specifying your build" etc etc etc
It's clear from most of our experiences a large majority of professional out in the real world haven't a clue. It's not just builders that were responsible for the rubbish built in this country in the last 10/15 years. There were professionals specifying and signing off on these houses and some of them are still catching out self builders today.

PlumbCrazy

Yes I agree, I lay the blame for this at our "engineers" door. The spec that the builder built to was provided by said "engineer". Technically he should know the regulations but he was provided with the spec.

BUT I have a feeling we'll have very little come back on him as the regulations are so vague that technically it complies but in current reality of how it should have been built it doesn't and is not what what we asked for.


I get angry thinking about it but hey thats the country we live in .... plenty regulations with too much wiggle room.

BryanF

Was the house air-tested and did you recieve a BER cert?

PlumbCrazy

No air testing was never mentioned as a requirement so hasnt been done. No don't have a BER cert either and didnt ever hear it would be supplied. Id say we have built a house thats suitable for 1980s requirements ..... excuse me while I weep

Thermal imaging was something I did off my own back. thats the only saving grace.

MisseyB

I feel for you PlumbCrazy.

Would this document help you determine how best to remedy the situation?

http://www.nsai.ie/S-R-54-2014-Code-of-Practice.aspx

E