Concussions, bang smash etc

Tim Robbins

Ok we all know about concussions in Rugby now. We also all know that the game has got way more physical, players getting bigger, stronger and tackles getting more physical. Those of you who were watching the match at the weekend and have been following Rugby for a while will have noticed the game as drastically changed. Look at this video from France many of us grew up watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X50vaqyxZZA

So a suggestion I have. Only allow tackling from the waste down. Why? It will make it easier for players to offload and reward teams that run with the ball.
No change to rucking.

I believe this change will not only encourage running rugby, it also will mean less head collisions. If you look at the way a kid is taught how to tackle, aim for hips, head out to the side. Compare that to the way Sexton tackles, get your arms and heads close to his arms and heads and wrap him up. Which is more likely to have head collision?

Also, it makes tackling more skillful. Any strong lad can wrap a smaller lad up. However, it takes more skill and timing to go for the legs and bring a man down.

Thoughts?

.ak

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ok we all know about concussions in Rugby now. We also all know that the game has got way more physical, players getting bigger, stronger and tackles getting more physical. Those of you who were watching the match at the weekend and have been following Rugby for a while will have noticed the game as drastically changed. Look at this video from France many of us grew up watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X50vaqyxZZA

So a suggestion I have. Only allow tackling from the waste down. Why? It will make it easier for players to offload and reward teams that run with the ball.
No change to rucking.

I believe this change will not only encourage running rugby, it also will mean less head collisions. If you look at the way a kid is taught how to tackle, aim for hips, head out to the side. Compare that to the way Sexton tackles, get your arms and heads close to his arms and heads and wrap him up. Which is more likely to have head collision?

Also, it makes tackling more skillful. Any strong lad can wrap a smaller lad up. However, it takes more skill and timing to go for the legs and bring a man down.

Thoughts?

Taking bangs generally happen two ways (but not always):

Two players tackle one attacker and clash of heads.
Taking a knee or trailing foot to the head whilst on the deck.

Tackling below the waist won't prevent this.

UnitedWeStand

Interesting idea. sadly I don't think we will ever fully rid the game of concussions, its just in the nature of the sport/life unless you want to endorse full protective gear. Many concussions also come from poor head position in tackling conventionally around the waist too. As are they in rucks or general play. I've somehow only ever had one concussion from about seven or eight years worth of play, and that came from one of my own players knee smacking against my head in a ruck.

Still though interesting concept.

.ak

Again, protective gear wouldn't reduce it. Look at american football.

There's two ways to deal with it, either make rugby a non contact sport, or keep improving the awareness of concussion and how to deal with it medically speaking. The concussion alert bands the Saracens are using is a perfect example of that.

davegrohl48

The amount of leg injuries would skyrocket. You're forcing big men to tackle low. Quite often that will result in big tackles on planted legs and the results can be horrible. I know that is possible now also, but now you're forcing all tackles below the waist.
Usually to make a big change in anything (in this case reduce overly physical nature of rugby) it involves several small changes rather than one dramatic change.
Three options could be:
1. Tackler has to have at least one foot on the ground when tackling from front. i.e. Can't launch yourself rocket like at the player.
Exception being tackle wrap up of the legs which would still be allowed. Usually tackles from behind to legs don't result in injury. It's tackles from the side or front which are dangerous to knee/ankle/shins.
2. Penalise the handoff. i.e. you can't stiff arm an opponent out of the way.
You can still try and drive straight through. This would encourage players to actually evade each other rather than end wrapped up in a tackle. Often when the tackler is coming in they get an open palm to the face and it's impossible to get near to tackle.
3. Speed up play by limiting the time for penalties. Kickers are taking anything up to one minute to take a shot. 30 seconds is plenty time.
Many of these bigger players are reliant on the frequent and long stoppages to get their recovery. i.e. they have limited capacity to play a speeded up rugby game for 80 mins.

sydthebeat

if you tackle from the waist down, you cannot create a maul...
youd be removing a vital facet of the game, and another ability to turn over teh ball, then.

Im not sure we are getting significantly more concussions now, i think:

1 we're just mature enough to admit its frequencey
2 we're medically advanced to be able to test immediately
3 the stigma of going off concussed is removed

sydthebeat

davegrohl48 wrote: »

3. Speed up play by limiting the time for penalties. Kickers are taking anything up to one minute to take a shot. 30 seconds is plenty time.
.

they have done this already by limiting penalties to 60 seconds and conversions to 90 seconds.

davegrohl48

sydthebeat wrote: »

they have done this already by limiting penalties to 60 seconds and conversions to 90 seconds.

No reason it can't be penalties 30 seconds with conversions remaining 90 seconds.

irishbucsfan

We should just force all the fatter forwards to run on treadmills at full speed during the penalties. And also they should not ever be allowed do fitness training and they have to keep their body fat above 20%. They should also be forced to eat a full pizza at half time (the size of the pizza can be proportional to their weight, let's keep this scientific).

sydthebeat

davegrohl48 wrote: »

No reason it can't be penalties 30 seconds with conversions remaining 90 seconds.

i fail to see how this golden extra 30 seconds will reduce concussions

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ok we all know about concussions in Rugby now. We also all know that the game has got way more physical, players getting bigger, stronger and tackles getting more physical. Those of you who were watching the match at the weekend and have been following Rugby for a while will have noticed the game as drastically changed. Look at this video from France many of us grew up watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X50vaqyxZZA

So a suggestion I have. Only allow tackling from the waste down. Why? It will make it easier for players to offload and reward teams that run with the ball.
No change to rucking.

I believe this change will not only encourage running rugby, it also will mean less head collisions. If you look at the way a kid is taught how to tackle, aim for hips, head out to the side. Compare that to the way Sexton tackles, get your arms and heads close to his arms and heads and wrap him up. Which is more likely to have head collision?

Also, it makes tackling more skillful. Any strong lad can wrap a smaller lad up. However, it takes more skill and timing to go for the legs and bring a man down.

Thoughts?

No. While you have to look at everything do you really think such changes are needed? By forcing everyone to tackle below the waist, you will still get concussions due to poor head position, players getting hit by knees etc. There will be more expansive rugby with your proposal as offloading out of a tackle will be so much easier but do we will have to go as far as this? No. Better management by officials.

.ak wrote: »

Again, protective gear wouldn't reduce it. Look at american football.

There's two ways to deal with it, either make rugby a non contact sport, or keep improving the awareness of concussion and how to deal with it medically speaking. The concussion alert bands the Saracens are using is a perfect example of that.

Awareness and dealing with it is key. How many here have attended the IRFU's concussion awareness workshop? We need all coaches, referee's to attend and as many players/parents as possible.

davegrohl48 wrote: »

3. Speed up play by limiting the time for penalties. Kickers are taking anything up to one minute to take a shot. 30 seconds is plenty time.
Many of these bigger players are reliant on the frequent and long stoppages to get their recovery. i.e. they have limited capacity to play a speeded up rugby game for 80 mins.

To be honest I don't think speeding up kicks at goal would have any real impact in reducing the number of concussions/potential concussions in a game.

davegrohl48 wrote: »

No reason it can't be penalties 30 seconds with conversions remaining 90 seconds.

Getting the ball back, messing around with the ball. If anything conversions should have shorter time frame than a penalty

davegrohl48

sydthebeat wrote: »

i fail to see how this golden extra 30 seconds will reduce concussions

On it's own it wouldn't. But if it was part of a few tweaks to speed up the game someone like Basteraud would be limited to an impact sub for final ten minutes of the game.
You watch any of the 17 stone plus guys in the breaks in play and they're struggling much more than the lighter guys.
Reducing the size of the players should help somewhat reduce the amount of concussions.

dregin

Bad tackling technique is as much to blame as anything else. Head to hip bangs can be pretty ****ing head shattering.

irishbucsfan

Can we get PROs to go to clubs to talk about concussions to younger players? Or even better a medical professional?

I definitely think awareness and education is the key in this, although I think we might have limited resources in terms of the number of people who can effectively address that. I'm in England but I can't think of a way I would get someone in to talk to our lads within the RFUs structure, I never coached in my time in Ireland but I'd say it's quite similar?

I'm not sure we'll get the same value from getting coaches to workshops as we would from getting specialists out to clubs to address players at the beginning of training. We had exactly that (from two leinster branch refs) when the ELVs were adopted and it was excellent and very well received.

davegrohl48

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can we get PROs to go to clubs to talk about concussions to younger players? Or even better a medical professional?

I definitely think awareness and education is the key in this, although I think we might have limited resources in terms of the number of people who can effectively address that. I'm in England but I can't think of a way I would get someone in to talk to our lads within the RFUs structure, I never coached in my time in Ireland but I'd say it's quite similar?

I'm not sure we'll get the same value from getting coaches to workshops as we would from getting specialists out to clubs to address players at the beginning of training. We had exactly that (from two leinster branch refs) when the ELVs were adopted and it was excellent and very well received.

Okay this helps in terms of diagnossing concussion and players taking the recommended time out from the game in terms of not playing matches.
But won't you still have the underlying problem of bigger collisions resulting in more and more concussions each year?
George North ended up knocked out as his own man was powerful enough to drive on through the player he was tackling.
Sebastian Chabal concussed Jerry Collins
Jamie Heaslip concussed Ronan OGara.
Brian ODriscoll concussed himself and some unfortunate Springbok lock playing for the Lions a while back.
Those type of big hits involve either players launching themselves like missiles or big 17 stone plus powerhouses.
That won't get stopped by education etc. The symptoms might not get exacerbated as players will come off or not play for a few games.

The Lost Sheep

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can we get PROs to go to clubs to talk about concussions to younger players? Or even better a medical professional?

I definitely think awareness and education is the key in this, although I think we might have limited resources in terms of the number of people who can effectively address that. I'm in England but I can't think of a way I would get someone in to talk to our lads within the RFUs structure, I never coached in my time in Ireland but I'd say it's quite similar?

I'm not sure we'll get the same value from getting coaches to workshops as we would from getting specialists out to clubs to address players at the beginning of training. We had exactly that (from two leinster branch refs) when the ELVs were adopted and it was excellent and very well received.

The IRFU run concussion workshops. I attended one ran by Dr. Garrett Coughlan, the IRFU's Medical Co-ordinator at the end of last season. It would be the same in Ireland. The value isn't the same but is it not better that the coaches are somewhat aware of what they have to be aware of in relation to concussion?

irishbucsfan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The IRFU run concussion workshops. I attended one ran by Dr. Garrett Coughlan, the IRFU's Medical Co-ordinator at the end of last season. It would be the same in Ireland. The value isn't the same but is it not better that the coaches are somewhat aware of what they have to be aware of in relation to concussion?

I definitely think it would be better if coaches all attended these workshops. I think it may be hard to get them there unfortunately, but it would be great.

The Lost Sheep

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I definitely think it would be better if coaches all attended these workshops. I think it may be hard to get them there unfortunately, but it would be great.

Ways to get as many as possible is to include workshops on concussion on any laws updates that clubs will receive. Referees like Johnny Lacey, P Fitzgibbon go to clubs and areas to update a club/several clubs on laws. Get the concussion seminar done on same night.

jacothelad

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ok we all know about concussions in Rugby now. We also all know that the game has got way more physical, players getting bigger, stronger and tackles getting more physical. Those of you who were watching the match at the weekend and have been following Rugby for a while will have noticed the game as drastically changed. Look at this video from France many of us grew up watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X50vaqyxZZA

So a suggestion I have. Only allow tackling from the waste down. Why? It will make it easier for players to offload and reward teams that run with the ball.
No change to rucking.

People might pooh pooh that suggestion as a crap one. others might pan it. A tissue thin suggestion, not one flushed with genius...

Sorry...


I'll get my coat.