Firearms faux pas

Heckler

Anyone got any favourites ?

We all know the hollywood 60 shot pistol without a reload. I think ever since Saving Private Ryan, Black hawk down and Heat set the bar I despair when I see bad trigger discipline, lack of reloads, the sound edited cocking of a gun everytime someone raises it etc.

I can't watch older films anymore like Chuck Norris Delta Force where hes spraying with an uzi.

Theres a few youtube clips of Tom Cruise training for "Collateral". Seems he took it seriously and was a good fast shot.

Anybody have any examples of good firearm handling in movies ?

Grizzly 45

More bad than good handling in shootouts
Starting with the idiocyin Westerns of hiding behind a saloon bar card table,that in a few scenes previously had been reduced to kindling in the fist fights by lads flying onto them.Either the things were made of 6inch thick oak which "might" stop a old BP round and would have broken peoples backs had they landed on them or they were plywood which wouldnt stop a .22.Not to mind the farsce of the high noon quick draw finale at about 50 meters in the main street.Anyone who ever botherd reading a bit about the really not so Wild West would find these shootouts happened in around 15 meters or were sorted out with sawn off shotguns,if they happened at all.

Idiotic positioning of people behind cars in shootouts.Leaning over the roof for support and leaving your entire torso exposed protected by only two car windows:eek:,hiding behind car doors or leaning over the bonnet is another favourite.Tip lads,the only bullet proof bit of a car is up front behind the engine block with your back up against the wheel and the noggin well below the bonnet.

People being shot and dramatically being pulled 12 foot backwards from the impact.While whoever fired this pocket howitzer is still standing there unaffected by the recoil.

Dumb poses while holding a firearm in a shooting situation,usually with the female intrest.Two handed , muzzle up slightly off 90 degrees.Called the boob pose..It is only done to give everyone a better view of the ladies ample ..ahem ..caliber.:o.Otherwise absolutely useless in a tactical shooting,and would have you flung off a range for unsafe gun handling.While we are about it."Gangsta"pointing of and holding the gun sideways with a curved arm in a sort of up and over position and thus negating using any sights whatsoever.

Getting shot,usually the hero gets a neat little hole drilled in the fleshy bit of the arm or muscle and continues manfuly on thru the rest of the film..Not writhing on the floor in agony after getting a mass energy dump that has proably riped thru god alone knows what ligaments cartlidge and bone.

Silencers 4ins in length on revolvers or 50 cal rifles that make a discreet "Phutt" sound.Ridicilous and amusing rifle scope reticles with numbers,and God alone knows what else on the glass and needing a doctorate to figure out WTF its supposed to do:P
People shooting pistol gripped only pump action shotguns with amazing accruacy and wholly and wrongly from the hip.
Folks coming out of jail or from wherever who haven held a handgun in ages being total crack shots in an instant.Or being to handle the latest bit of hardware without fumbling for saftey catches,mag releases etc,within seconds of picking it up.

Assh*e actors like Liam Neeson or Micheal Douglas who have no problem starring in carnage fests and making millions from waving guns around and shooting heaps of bad guys on screen and then trurning round and saying its the guns fault and no one should have guns for protection or shooting,and that people know the difference between films and reality.....While they have armed security on their person or million dollar Hollywood properties.

In fairness there are some actors too who are very pro gun too and catch flack for it.Charlton Heston,Tom Selleck,Sly Stallone,Samuel L Jackson,Robert De Niro[NYC carry permit]Whoopi Goldberg,Brad Pitt Angelia Jolie,Christian Slater.Last seven being ALL card carying Democrats and liberals.

Indeed the fiction factory that is Hollywood does have alot to answer for our woes as gun owners globally.:mad::mad:

Heckler

One of my favourites is Joe Mantagna from Criminal Minds. he's a big fan of the .45 and as far as I know is critical of a lot of hollywood types who decry guns but have no problem using them on screen. He got a custom made .45 from some TV show,(Sons of Guns or some such) can't remember its name.

No doubting Steven Segals lack of acting chops but he always uses a .45 in his movies and in real life too apparently. Think both Pacino and De Niro are gun friendly and may have a ccw for protection.

Edit: just saw your Robert de Niro there.

http://youtu.be/Fm7eGl-KgwA

Guy from Cabot firearms is a bit off to me.

Out of all those for some reason I'd take Tom Selleck most seriously. I don't rate hollywood stars having guns for protection. I'll rate Selleck for hunting and Slater cos hes a cool ass.

Grizzly 45

Selleck most deffo,as he owned and took down Rosie O Donnell[Fat ,ugly loudmouth total anti gun, no talent actress,talkshow host... If Family Guy and the Simpsons take the mick out of you ,you know you suck] and was virtually ostracised from Hollywwod for a few years because of it.
Samuel L ,because he grew up around them in the southern states and not in South LA and considerd them things for putting grub on the table.Not for shooting at people[Klu Klux Klan being the proable exception:P]

Sparks

To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen a firearm being used in a film in a positive context, and damn few where they were being used accurately (I know there are a few films both old and new where actual live rounds were used during filming, sometimes being aimed at actors but I wouldn't have said they were in positive contexts).

Deaf git

There aren't many good examples.
Anyone remember Gregory 'Atticus' Peck dropping the rabid dog on the middle of a residential street in 'To Kill a Mockingbird'?

Nekarsulm

Not a Faux Pas, I wouldn't like Robert Stack to have me in his sights, either in real life or on a film!

Wildcard7

Sparks wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen a firearm being used in a film in a positive context, and damn few where they were being used accurately (I know there are a few films both old and new where actual live rounds were used during filming, sometimes being aimed at actors but I wouldn't have said they were in positive contexts).

Ronin sticks out to me as a film that I liked because it was relatively realistic (especially in the firearm department). I remember Robert De Niros character even putting in ear protection before a shootout.

Also it has Jean Reno in it which is always a bonus.

Sparks

Wildcard7 wrote: »

Ronin sticks out to me as a film that I liked because it was relatively realistic (especially in the firearm department). I remember Robert De Niros character even putting in ear protection before a shootout.

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd call that a positive context.

Seriously, we've a dozen movies any of us could name at the drop of a hat which show often violent sports (like, say, ice hockey or rugby) in a very positive light.

Can anyone name one movie that ever showed target shooting in the same way?

And yeah, you get the odd scene that shows hunting in a positive light, but usually the rest of the film then becomes a war film; and for every positive scene, you have ten scenes where Bambi's mom is killed.

Honestly, I can't think of one film where you could point to it and say "this is what I do, portrayed accurately, and not demonised".

Grizzly 45

About the only film I can think of that has hunting in a relatively positive light is "The ghost and the darkness."
Pity no one ever in Hollywood read Wilbur Smith,there are some exellent hunting stories there set in Africa that have hunting in a positive light and would make great films.

sfakiaman

What always gets me is seeing people shooting the Vulcan minigun from the hip as in Predator V some other yoke.

In the year 1987 the movie "Predator" (starring A. Schwarznegger) hit the screens. One of the most impressive scenes was the one where the US Commandos, led by "Dutch" (Schwarznegger), attempted to fight back the alien Predator. One of Commandos was armed with the distinctive weapon, a 6-barreled rotary Minigun, fed from backpack ammo box. This gave the impression that the Miniguns can be used for infantry support. It must be noted, that in this movie a special, blank firing version of the Minigun was sued. The electric motor was powered via cable, hidden in the actor's pants, and the actor had to carry bulletproof vest and protective mask to avoid injuries from the fast and violently ejecting empty cases. Had this gun being fired using real ammunition, the actor would ended lying on his back, being forced off the legs by the violent recoil. The "backpack" ammo capacity, also, could be worth only several seconds of fire. lets calculate: 2 000 rounds of 5.56mm ammo will weight about 25 kg (55 lbs); 2 000 rounds of 7.62mm will weight about 2 times more, making such load almost impossible to carry on foots. yet this load of ammo will worth only 20 or so seconds of fire. Add some powerful batteries to power electrical drive of about 4KWt (4+ horse-power), and the bulk of the gun itself, and you'll see that even the strongest man won't be able to carry this load, less to fire it with any chance to hit, due to extremely powerful recoil.

Sparks

I always liked the *actual* hunting scene from the deerhunter, but the problem is, well, all of the rest of the movie.


Also: Dude, if the prop guns used in Predator were the thing that gave you the most pause, I think you must have been watching the film with your eyes shut

sfakiaman

Sparks wrote: »

Also: Dude, if the prop guns used in Predator were the thing that gave you the most pause, I think you must have been watching the film with your eyes shut

You mean you don't believe in aliens, I'm so disappointed in you!

Sparks

sfakiaman wrote: »

You mean you don't believe in aliens, I'm so disappointed in you!

Aliens shmaliens, I don't believe in Arnold Schwarzenegger. I mean, some things are just too outlandish to believe in without proof.

Wildcard7

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd call that a positive context.

Me neither. I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying you only know a few where firearms where depicted realistically. Reading it again it seems I got you wrong.

Grizzly 45

Although the M16/Remington 870 O/U shotgun combo carried by the American Indian scout Billy[Sonny Landham] is doable and would be a serious "Get off my lawn" gun:)

kowloon

Sparks wrote: »

I always liked the *actual* hunting scene from the deerhunter, but the problem is, well, all of the rest of the movie.


Also: Dude, if the prop guns used in Predator were the thing that gave you the most pause, I think you must have been watching the film with your eyes shut

Get to the choppah!

tomtucker81

sfakiaman wrote: »

What always gets me is seeing people shooting the Vulcan minigun from the hip as in Predator V some other yoke.

In the year 1987 the movie "Predator" (starring A. Schwarznegger) hit the screens. One of the most impressive scenes was the one where the US Commandos, led by "Dutch" (Schwarznegger), attempted to fight back the alien Predator. One of Commandos was armed with the distinctive weapon, a 6-barreled rotary Minigun, fed from backpack ammo box. This gave the impression that the Miniguns can be used for infantry support. It must be noted, that in this movie a special, blank firing version of the Minigun was sued. The electric motor was powered via cable, hidden in the actor's pants, and the actor had to carry bulletproof vest and protective mask to avoid injuries from the fast and violently ejecting empty cases. Had this gun being fired using real ammunition, the actor would ended lying on his back, being forced off the legs by the violent recoil. The "backpack" ammo capacity, also, could be worth only several seconds of fire. lets calculate: 2 000 rounds of 5.56mm ammo will weight about 25 kg (55 lbs); 2 000 rounds of 7.62mm will weight about 2 times more, making such load almost impossible to carry on foots. yet this load of ammo will worth only 20 or so seconds of fire. Add some powerful batteries to power electrical drive of about 4KWt (4+ horse-power), and the bulk of the gun itself, and you'll see that even the strongest man won't be able to carry this load, less to fire it with any chance to hit, due to extremely powerful recoil.

Boom. There goes my amazement at someone walking around with a minigun.
But surely Arnie could've pulled it off, sure it'd only be light training for him

Nekarsulm

The Remington under the M16 would leave the entire outfit seriously front heavy, though? Ypu would need all them muscles to cary it one handed. Imagine 8 or 10 three inch cartridges of 46g 0 buckshot, all hanging out in front. Also, due to the Magazine of the M16 getting in the way, you would be liable to have your trigger finger broken while cycling and firing........ looks purposeful though!

Grizzly 45

Nekarsulm wrote: »

The Remington under the M16 would leave the entire outfit seriously front heavy, though? Ypu would need all them muscles to cary it one handed. Imagine 8 or 10 three inch cartridges of 46g 0 buckshot, all hanging out in front. Also, due to the Magazine of the M16 getting in the way, you would be liable to have your trigger finger broken while cycling and firing........ looks purposeful though!

The more I look at that pic ,the shotgun looks very much like a mossberg 500!
In which case it would be useless or very fiddley as the mossberg has a tang safety not a side button Standard tube of 5 rounds. So its not overly heavy,but if you want heavy, some lad has built a AR 15 with a saiga 12 10 shot box loaded shotgun. I gather you are supposed to shoot this like the M16/M203 grenade launcher.In that you use the mag well and mag as the pistol grip and the 16's but stock serves as normal. Be more handy for urban door breaching than jungle warfare tho.But hey I guess it looked cool to some director someplace and that's all that matters.

Nekarsulm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The more I look at that pic ,the shotgun looks very much like a mossberg 500!
.

Looks a lot like the Mossy around the action bar area, but I can't see the rear most two cross pins. The safety wouldn't be an issue, cause you would just leave it on "fire" position. I can't see the slide release tang either, but the angle is just a little off.

If I was building that thing, I would have a linked trigger assembly. Kind of like Mossberg's bullpup trigger linkage rod, but in reverse.

Grizzly 45

tomtucker81 wrote: »

Boom. There goes my amazement at someone walking around with a minigun.
But surely Arnie could've pulled it off, sure it'd only be light training for him

Hey anyone who can weild a SPAS12 and AR 18 by the pistol grips as nonchalantly as he did in Terminator in the police station shoot out is someone who has got some serious arm strength. ..Wonder how he reloaded both guns tho in that firefight?must have been tricky even for a robot from er... right about now?? Wasn't it 2014 or 15 when SKYNET supposedly sent the terminator back to 1984?

Nekarsulm

April 21, 2011
We are in the age of the machines.............:D

tomtucker81

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hey anyone who can weild a SPAS12 and AR 18 by the pistol grips as nonchalantly as he did in Terminator in the police station shoot out is someone who has got some serious arm strength. ..Wonder how he reloaded both guns tho in that firefight?must have been tricky even for a robot from er... right about now?? Wasn't it 2014 or 15 when SKYNET supposedly sent the terminator back to 1984?

I don't think the terminator was too worried about momentarily stopping to reload against humans!

And i just checked the dates of the terminator being sent back.....there is much debate online!!
But it does seem to centre around 2029 so we're ok for now.

Grizzly 45

tomtucker81 wrote: »

I don't think the terminator was too worried about momentarily stopping to reload against humans!

And i just checked the dates of the terminator being sent back.....there is much debate online!!
But it does seem to centre around 2029 so we're ok for now.

You would wonder....Considering that some jokers have already mounted a 12 gauge FA shotgun to civilian drones and sold it to US law enforcement . For riot control .The FAA is changing the laws on aviation to include drones but intrestingly enough giving the dept of homeland security and law enforcement carte blanche to fly these wherever they want in US airspace.The more advanced of these hobby drones can now fly halfway across the US and are getting a decent payload capability.
Add artifical intelligence to that package which is getting closer year by year ,some estimate 2020 ,and you have your first autonomus hunter killer drone.
Hopefully someone is meantime developing a phasedplasmarifle

Grizzly 45

tomtucker81 wrote: »

I don't think the terminator was too worried about momentarily stopping to reload against humans!

And i just checked the dates of the terminator being sent back.....there is much debate online!!
But it does seem to centre around 2029 so we're ok for now.

You would wonder....Considering that some jokers have already mounted a 12 gauge FA shotgun to civilian drones and sold it to US law enforcement . For riot control .The FAA is changing the laws on aviation to include drones but intrestingly enough giving the dept of homeland security and law enforcement carte blanche to fly these wherever they want in US airspace.The more advanced of these hobby drones can now fly halfway across the US and are getting a decent payload capability.
Add artifical intelligence to that package which is getting closer year by year ,some estimate 2020 ,and you have your first autonomus hunter killer drone.
Hopefully someone is meantime developing a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range in either restricted or unrestricted versions.

Sparks

Grizz, they already have autonomous drones, both aerial and land-based. Have had for years. They're not set loose on people in fully autonomous mode purely because of policy, there's no technical reason preventing it and hasn't been for years.

Hell, if you want one, and have $500 to spare, you can just buy an autonomous (unarmed!) quadcopter drone that follows you about with a gopro today: http://hexoplus.com/

Grizzly 45

But are they self cognisant Sparks?;)And if so are they progerammed with Asimovs laws on robots?

recipio

Just caught a re-run of 'No country for Old men' . Forget the humane killer scenes, the Semi-automatic shotgun with the beancan silencer was very impressive - but then Cormac McCarthy knows his guns.

Grizzly 45

And speaking of Terminator ... 3 freakin 1 years later since I saw the first one.[OMG I'm getting old!:eek:]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62E4FJTwSuc&feature=youtu.be

He always said he would be back.:pac:

Grizzly 45

And speaking of Terminator ... thirty freakin one years later since I saw the first one.[OMG I'm getting old!:eek:]

He always said he would be back.:pac:

moc moc a moc

Heckler wrote: »

Anybody have any examples of good firearm handling in movies ?

Legend has it Val Kilmer's reload in the main shootout in Heat was taught to US soldiers

Sparks

Actually, here's one to raise the eyebrows:

Grizzly 45

Even blanks are dangerous..Ask Brandon Lee [Bruce Lee's son],oopps you cant..He's dead,he picked up a gun loaded with blanks held it to his temple and pulled the trigger on the set of the Crow 2.Small bit of metal broke off the blank and was projected into his temple.
He's not the only one there have been at least a half dozen actors killed by messing about with the prop guns in the last century in Hollywood.

Nice pic.I guess rubbish bins in the 1930s America were made of some seriously sturdy stuff if you could use them for cover in gunfights.:D

Grizzly 45

moc moc a moc wrote: »

Legend has it Val Kilmer's reload in the main shootout in Heat was taught to US soldiers

The only good move I saw in that lead fest was Pachino taking proper cover behind the red Volvo and doing a proper mag swop. Putting engine block ,car tyre in the way of bullets and keeping the head well down:cool:
The two police officers at 1:48 proved my point that glass and car doors are not good barricades for stopping 5.56 or any type of rounds.:eek:

If anyone taught US soilders that kind of a sloppy mag reload they had never fired an AR rifle or knew how to do a proper mag change.:rolleyes:

At 0;45 Kilmer ducks down and yanks the mag out without touching the mag button on the right side of the M4[?] from the butt end.Its a small enough button so wearing gloves makes it harder to work again,if he touches it at all,which he doesnt at .
045 to 47 .He's groping around for another mag either in his bag,pants or jacket.If you are doing a round count righ,you should be reaching for it by the time the last three rounds are coming up so you know the last round is chamberd and all it is is a" drop and push" on a loaded gun,no need to recharge and fiddle about .
In it goes at 0:48 and he SLAPS the bolt carrier release. Just to give you an idea of how big this is you are talking appx 1.5 cm long by appx 1cm wide bit of metal,say half a one cent piece,holding back a bolt carrier powered by a very large spring.So there is no slapping here,it is a deliberate forceful push to get an M4 or any of the AR platforms rechamberd,it was designed specifically to be like that to prevent accidental loading of rounds.Not Somthing easily moved by a slap I can tell you.
Could go on about the appaling cover and move tactics ,seen lads who play Airsoft do much better.. the distances these lads are shooting at each other,and the amount of full auto fire being fired by the cops!

I'd hate to have been Pachinos chacter at that post shooting incident board of enquiry and hearings with all the police top brass,the district attornies,civil rights groups ,wall to wall lawyers for everyone involved in that shootout,The mayor,the council,the cornorer ,internal affairs,and proably the state govenor as well as well as the entire media hordes local,national and international.:DPoor guy would be in enquiries,court rooms and interviews until his retirement.:D

IOW Micheal Mann, Hollywood fiction and legend at its best.:D

Heckler

Ah Grizzly. You burst my bubble. Always loved the Heat shootout.

How about Tom Cruise in Collateral ? Some good videos of him training for it on youtube.

richie_braz

The Bourne Legacy had a semi auto bolt action sniper rifle.

tomtucker81

Here's a few interesting ones.
Shooter - a water bottle to silence a rifle??
Kiss The Girls - Freeman shoots through a milk carton to stop the muzzle flash from igniting the gas filled room.
Saving Private Ryan - the sniper (jackson) is left handed, firing a right handed rifle. He has to move the rifle off target so he can cycle the bolt. Surely the army would've had left handed rifles??

Incidentally, myth busters tried the milk carton theory. It worked. Although it didnt ignite without the milk carton either as the muzzle flash was too short (time wise) to cause ignition

dc99

Heat???? love that armed robbery shoot out.
I heard at the time that Andy McNab was the consultant (don't know if this is true).
About not touching the release on the right hand side...isn't there an after market part that transfers the ability to release the mag from the left side on an M4?
I found this out when I was dribbling over a .22lr version of the m4 (I think it was a colt...) before I relised that trying to get it passed the Super would be too much trouble (even though a few in Ireland seem to have managed to get it licenced...).
It was a mag pul part I think and would actually work on the .22 colt version (if that was the make I was loking at at the time..)

Grizzly 45

I have a ambidex bolt release on my AR10.its fine for right handed operators ,but still is no great benefit to the leftie shooter or operation,as you are still hitting a now somewhat bigger carrier release button but operating a little lever on the right hand side . Also,they are really only new on the market within the last four years or so,and were not around on any M4 the time Heat was made.
Its still not a standard issue or approved accessory for the US armed forces,so its doubtful it wouls be on Kilmers AR.

If Andy Mc Nab was involved as an advisor,it must have been on his day off after a good few scoops in the pub.:P Easiest way is check the credits,he would be mentioned in there someplace.

Saving Private Ryan - the sniper (jackson) is left handed, firing a right handed rifle. He has to move the rifle off target so he can cycle the bolt. Surely the army would've had left handed rifles??

Nope .Sorry you just have to become right handed for the term of your enlistment!:D Or aquire a weapon that doesnt require right hand operation.Like a Garand,but not the sniper version,that was set up for righties too.
It is a major PITA alright,as I have the same problem as do all lefties with right handed bolt actions...Discrimination of handicapped people I tell you!:D

Shooter - a water bottle to silence a rifle??

An old one..Comes form one of the expedient DIY silencer books. Will work,somwhat,maybe,if ,but.For a single shot out of a .22 ,possibly,but anything bigger...er...no It's a race between gas volume and strength of the plastic soda bottle walls.Or thats how somebody explained it.

dc99

Its true, McNab was an advisor on HEAT. according to a few internet sources (so it MUST be true :-) ). I just look it up...
Also if you look at a few of his book bios, it says that he consults to movies/tv as well as writing books etc.

I like the story anyway.

Grizzly 45

dc99 wrote: »

Its true, McNab was an advisor on HEAT. according to a few internet sources (so it MUST be true :-) ). I just look it up...
Also if you look at a few of his book bios, it says that he consults to movies/tv as well as writing books etc.

I like the story anyway.

Don't think I'd trust his bump of direction with a map&compass mind going by the story of bravo two zero.It is a good film alright but the trouble is people thinking what's on the silver screen somehow translates into how it is done in the real world or that types of weapons in films actually work or are freely available to all and sundry at the drop of a hat.

OzCam

IIRC there's a flashback hunting scene at the beginning of Red October. Capt Ramius is recalling when his grandfather taught him to shoot in the winter.

Sparks

OzCam wrote: »

IIRC there's a flashback hunting scene at the beginning of Red October. Capt Ramius is recalling when his grandfather taught him to shoot in the winter.

Ramius was taught to fish by his grandfather, not shoot.
You might be thinking of the flashbacks in Enemy at the Gates.

OzCam

Yes, I remembered the fishin' but I thought there was some shootin' as well.

Memory needs defragmenting.

Zaytzev it was, not Ramius

judestynes

Any one catch public enemies with Johnny Depp or Lawless with Tom Hardy. Some good gun play in those and of course John Wicke but Keanu takes it to the next level there.