After-hours support in IT - paid?

ocsfan

Hi All,

I work for a large company in Dublin, doing 2nd and 3rd line support/development/database administration in IT. I've been asked more and more and more lately to provide support and fix problems on weekends and evenings, and am not compensated for this, above my normal salary.

I have raised it as an issue, as I understand we do have some support staff who do get paid for after-hour support, and this hardly seems fair.

My question is: How much is typical in Ireland to get paid for this? Per incident? Per day available? Both?

This needs to get resolved, as I worked Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday (a few hours each day), and this has quickly gotten out of hand... Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

crazyderk

If its any help to you I'll give an example of what I get paid for on call work.

while im on call and not working but can be called any time after hours its 15% of my salary.

When I'm called I bill per hour and I'm paid time and a half.

Does your contract say anything about what your working hours are? if it does then you could flat out say sorry my shift is finished and I cant help you. sometimes things need to blow up before they get changed, although this could hurt your career moving forward as you could be seen as uncooperative.

Perhaps bring it up in a one to one with your manager or ask to speak to someone in HR?

Hope you get your issue sorted and best of luck with it.

ShowMeTheCash

What does your contract say?
Maybe give it a read.

Usually support staff are not paid well, as a software engineer my salary usually was much higher than a support staff memebers but my contract did say I would be flexible. So I got a flat salary.

KT10

ocsfan wrote: »

This needs to get resolved, as I worked Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday (a few hours each day), and this has quickly gotten out of hand... Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

My advice would be to start making it more and more difficult to get a hold of you, so you're not responding at the drop of a hat.

For example, next time they ring on a Saturday, tell them you're in a B&B in the @rsehole of Kerry, you've no internet access, no laptop with you (cause you don't work weekends) and if they insist on you helping them troubleshoot the system over the phone, start losing the signal "Hello? Hello? Can you hear me? I don't know if you can here me, but I can't hear you, hello?" then hang up randomly.

When you come back in Monday, you go to your manager and say, "Look, we need to sort something more permanent for on-call support at the weekends, here's what I propose." and then hand over your rates as per the post above.

That, or offer to cross train (during company time) some of the guys who already do out of hours support, on the systems you look after. Thats if you trust them not to make a complete mess of things. :P

crazyderk

KT10 wrote: »

My advice would be to start making it more and more difficult to get a hold of you, so you're not responding at the drop of a hat.

For example, next time they ring on a Saturday, tell them you're in a B&B in the @rsehole of Kerry, you've no internet access, no laptop with you (cause you don't work weekends) and if they insist on you helping them troubleshoot the system over the phone, start losing the signal "Hello? Hello? Can you hear me? I don't know if you can here me, but I can't hear you, hello?" then hang up randomly.

When you come back in Monday, you go to your manager and say, "Look, we need to sort something more permanent for on-call support at the weekends, here's what I propose." and then hand over your rates as per the post above.

LMAO that's quality! do that OP

drumswan

crazyderk wrote: »

LMAO that's quality! do that OP

Or just tell them you are not available...

ocsfan

Hi All,

Just a bit more clarification: I'm a bit more of a developer/DBA and support the application as well. From my contract:

Your regular work hours are 9:00am – 5:30pm Monday to Friday each week. <snip> Work outside these hours is obviously required from time to time.

I've already spoken to my manager about this several times, because "from time to time" has become 3-4-5 times per week. He's said he'll get me paid for the after-hours support, so that's not really a problem either. We get on well, so I don't see any issues, actually.

I guess I have two questions:

What should I expect/ask for?
Based on what's technically in my contract, would this still be something I'd be obligated to, if things did go poorly in the negotiations?

Thanks!

ocsfan

I just think I'm being abused, now. Everyone here at the company I work for say I'm mad for taking any calls at all...

ocsfan

crazyderk wrote: »

If its any help to you I'll give an example of what I get paid for on call work.

while im on call and not working but can be called any time after hours its 15% of my salary.

When I'm called I bill per hour and I'm paid time and a half.

Does your contract say anything about what your working hours are? if it does then you could flat out say sorry my shift is finished and I cant help you. sometimes things need to blow up before they get changed, although this could hurt your career moving forward as you could be seen as uncooperative.

Perhaps bring it up in a one to one with your manager or ask to speak to someone in HR?

Hope you get your issue sorted and best of luck with it.

Thanks, crazyderk!

I'm paid an annual salary, so I suppose it could be 15% of what my salary would be, broken down hourly? Same for time and a half?

I have a co-worker who said in his last role, he was paid €90 per weekday (!) just to be available, plus €150 per incident/day...

bpmurray

My guess is that your manager would love to pay you, but that once it gets past him, it just won't happen. You'll probably be told that if you're in the office it's OK to order a pizza so that you don't starve, and when you've worked 100 hours over, you'll get a day off in lieu.

Being in Kerry on a bad line is probably the way to go.

seamus

I guess the key here depends on whether or not the out-of-hours calls are agreed in advance.

If they're not, then that's easy - just don't answer the phone. If they ring multiple times, even better. My rule is that if they don't leave a message, they don't get a callback. If they do leave a message they get a call back 2 hours later or the next day if it's not urgent. You are not obliged to be available outside of hours, so they have no right to get pissy when you don't answer the phone. If they complain just tell them your phone was on silent or whatever.

If the out-of-hours support is being agreed with you in advance, then you need to start making yourself unavailable. You're going away, or you've got plans to go out, or whatever.

A few weeks of it and they'll start talking about putting in a formal on-call rota, which is the point at which you put your foot down and say that you're not participating without compensation. Absolute minimum for on call is a flat 10% and time in lieu for all time spent on call. And that's a crap arrangement. A good arrangement is 25% on call allowance + 1.5 rate for actually getting called (and it's usually a minimum 4 hours' pay) + time in lieu. The company should also supply a company phone, laptop and pay part of your home internet bill (assuming you need to connect into the office).

Working in a company at present with pathetic on-call compensation I can tell you that it's one thing that you have to fight for. A company will do their utmost to get oncall work out of you for nothing and take it for granted that you'll do it. Being on-call is horrible work, I personally feel that you cannot be paid enough to justify how soul-crushing it is, but it makes it 100 times worse if the company is taking the piss.

Your regular work hours are 9:00am – 5:30pm Monday to Friday each week. <snip> Work outside these hours is obviously required from time to time.

This is pretty standard wording. I think most reasonable people would agree that "from time to time" is once or twice a month, at most. In other words, in exceptional circumstances when an emergency crops or when work is required which cannot be done during business hours.

If it's not an emergency, the work cannot be justified. If you're getting called 5 times a week for "emergencies", then one has to start worrying about the state of the application.

Mrs OBumble

Did you write the app? Why is it so flakey that there are such frequent support calls? What can you do to make it and the standard support process more robust and so more likely for the regular support people to resolve issues.

I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but there's a double-edged sword in paying developers for calls outs. This is why many get time-off-in-lieu rather than extra cash.

Elessar

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

What does your contract say?
Maybe give it a read.

Usually support staff are not paid well, as a software engineer my salary usually was much higher than a support staff memebers but my contract did say I would be flexible. So I got a flat salary.

This is true to an extent but application support is different to helpdesk and usually focuses on one or several applications which are generally mission-citical. According to Morgan-McKinley's latest salary survey, an experienced application support person can expect to earn up to 50k+ in the current climate. I work in this area and have had recruiters literally throwing jobs at me, so much so I've had to take my CV offline!

OP working out of hours so often is not normal for a daytime contract and they probably ask you because you will do it. I would arrange a meeting with your supervisor and outline your concerns face to face. Either get someone else to assist you (along with extra cash or TIL) or get extra payment or time in lieu if you're on your own.

crazyderk

ocsfan wrote: »

Thanks, crazyderk!

I'm paid an annual salary, so I suppose it could be 15% of what my salary would be, broken down hourly? Same for time and a half?

I have a co-worker who said in his last role, he was paid €90 per weekday (!) just to be available, plus €150 per incident/day...

Yes I'm on an annual salary too so it breaks down by the hour

salary / 52 weeks a year / 37.5 hours per week = hourly rate

15% of my hourly rate for 16 hours when im on call plus then if I get a call time and a half for each hour that ive been called.

bren2002

I do oncall one week in three.

To be oncall I get €65 per night. If I'm called m-f it's 1.5 times salary. If sat or sun it's €87.50 for the first hour and €65 for every hour after that. They also cover my broadband up to €40 per month.

Also if I'm called I'm not required in work for 8 hours after the incident closes.

The reality of my setup is that I'm rarely called.

Manach

This is extra outside normal time work. From a previous job this was not covered by the "on occasion ... ". Thus for any on-call support there was a process and fixed overtime wage structure in place for such. Therefore hopefully the OP will be able to negotiate on this matter.

ocsfan

Thanks, all, for the great opinions and help.

To one person who asked why so much was needed, and why was the app so flakey: It's a very old (10-15 years old) ERP system that about 10 divisions run on (each has their own installation/setup/configuration). Add to that the fact that we own source code and it's been heavily modified in all 10 divisions, and you have a recipe for a very flexible application with greater support needed. I do of the DBA work, application support, programming, and even heavy Unix OS support.

I've sent an email to the boss, telling him that we need to talk about this right away. He's on-board, but we'll see if (as someone else mentioned), he has troubles with his boss. If so, I plan to let him know that my availability is about to plunge.

KT10

ocsfan wrote: »

If so, I plan to let him know that my availability is about to plunge.

Nice one, I assume you're about to take up weekend hill walking in remote areas yeah? Shocking lack of signal when out and about.

Tiger Mcilroy

Ive experienced something very similar and i nipped it in the bud after an upper manager questioned my commitment when i had to refuse to come in on a saturday all after giving roughly what amounted to an extra hour a day over a period of a few months.

My direct manager was raging but his hands were tied as there was a culture created where people felt compelled to work extra or be seen as somebody that wasnt committed to doing a good job.

I would be very firm with them on this, its indicative of poor management using staff to cover their own asses and the old "time in lieu" is a scam in my opinion that never reflects the actual hours people give up.

ocsfan

They've even stopped making empty promises of time in lieu. It is poor management, that much I can guarantee. And the "cover their own asses" is perfectly put.

Tiger Mcilroy

ocsfan wrote: »

They've even stopped making empty promises of time in lieu. It is poor management, that much I can guarantee. And the "cover their own asses" is perfectly put.

Have seen it so often when managers make promises around delivery without any real concept of how long these things take and put pressure on the people that do the actual work.

I ended up leaving the company over it as it became so normal to work upwards of 6-7 hours unpaid a week and being constantly worried about small tasks it just wasnt worth it in the end. I was asked in my exit interview why i was leaving and told them straight out that management were working people into the ground by creating a culture where people were afraid to take lunch due to the unrealistic workloads, the HR lady was obviously expecting the usual "moving for a new challenge" responses they normally got.