Now Ye're Talking - To A Scout Leader

Dav

Hello all,

I'd like you all to meet Orion who many of you will know from his time here on the site as a member and mod. He is a Scout Leader and is here to talk to us about that.

So please say hello and let the questions begin!

Tabnabs

First of all, as a former scout, fair play to you for taking the time to volunteer for your position. Kids can be tough to "shepherd", especially in the great outdoors.

Two things that I would like hear your experience on is religion and scouting & child protection & scouting.

In my day it was the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland and down the road we had our protestant brethren, Scouting Irish (IIRC) and never the twain did meet. We dutifully promised to serve and worship God etc. and attended catholic ceremonies in uniform, as part of our "duties". Has this changed and is scouting better off as a secular organisation or not?

Secondly, child protection must be a huge consideration in everything you as a male leader do in terms of interaction with the scouts. Is this a big burden and is it something you worry could become too onerous? Is this keeping men out of leadership roles in scouting?

Finally, what are the best advancements that have come to scouting Ireland and are those terrible Icelandic tents still in use?!

Dozen Wicked Words

Are the Scouts open to boys and girls now? What are the facilities like in your troop? Are children harder to motivate in this age of computers, video games, smart phones and the like?

Oh, and its great that people like you still take the time and effort to do this Orion (my daughter is in Guides and she absolutely loves it)(actually do Scouts and Guides ever have interaction as organisations or are you both pitching for the same young people and in competition?)

dulpit

Hey fellow scouter! Just wondering - which county/group you with? What section do you lead? And do you find that the overall scouting experience has improved or gotten worse in the last few years?

I'm also itching to answer the questions already asked, but will allow you to respond...

P.S. Icelandic tents, if properly maintained, are the best tents to use for camping - way way way better than a dome tent (unless you're on the hills or need a lot of mobility).

Orion

Tabnabs wrote: »

First of all, as a former scout, fair play to you for taking the time to volunteer for your position. Kids can be tough to "shepherd", especially in the great outdoors.

They can be but once reasonable precautions are taken everyone is safe.

Tabnabs wrote: »

Two things that I would like hear your experience on is religion and scouting & child protection & scouting.

In my day it was the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland and down the road we had our protestant brethren, Scouting Irish (IIRC) and never the twain did meet. We dutifully promised to serve and worship God etc. and attended catholic ceremonies in uniform, as part of our "duties". Has this changed and is scouting better off as a secular organisation or not?

The two associations have merged now. The main promise used is religious but there is also an alternate promise which replaces the line "do my duty to god" with "further my knowledge and understanding of a spiritual reality". I justify using that one myself as I don't equate spirituality with belief in a deity. For others it's not sufficient and there is actually a movement right now within Scouting Ireland to provide for a 3rd - secular - promise. The National Management Committee are raising it at this year's National Council in March.

Better off? I don't see it as better or worse off. At it's core scouting is to develop responsible citizens and train them in different areas. Spirituality is only one part of scouting and it can be developed in many different ways. However having a secular promise would open up Scouting to people it's closed to right now.

Tabnabs wrote: »

Secondly, child protection must be a huge consideration in everything you as a male leader do in terms of interaction with the scouts. Is this a big burden and is it something you worry could become too onerous? Is this keeping men out of leadership roles in scouting?

Of course it is. It's paramount in our minds in everything we do. But it's not a burden as such. Most of CP is common sense - don't be alone with a child, no secrets etc. I don't see it as keeping anyone out of scouting - not anyone we'd want in anyway. In fact we're crying out for female leaders in our group - we've plenty of men.

But the vetting process is a pain in the ass and now we have to renew it every three years - the form gets you to list every address you've ever lived in and you have to do it for every organisation that you volunteer in if there's more than one. This process needs to be streamlined to ensure that people who are willing to join any organisation aren't put off by an overly bureaucratic process.

Tabnabs wrote: »

Finally, what are the best advancements that have come to scouting Ireland and are those terrible Icelandic tents still in use?!

None - all the same. We still use spars, sisal, half barrels, altar fires etc. And how dare you - a properly pitched Icelandic is the best tent you could possibly have! A poorly pitched one is the worst thing though
Seriously though - no major advancement - more extra features. There's a JOTI every year - Jamboree on the Internet which is a development from JOTA (Airwaves) which was ham radio based. But the core scouting training is pretty much as it was when I was a scout 30 years ago.

Orion

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Are the Scouts open to boys and girls now? What are the facilities like in your troop? Are children harder to motivate in this age of computers, video games, smart phones and the like?

Oh, and its great that people like you still take the time and effort to do this Orion (my daughter is in Guides and she absolutely loves it)(actually do Scouts and Guides ever have interaction as organisations or are you both pitching for the same young people and in competition?)

Scouts is mixed now. We always try to keep a gender balance so it doesn't get lopsided in a group or section but all are welcome.

Before video games, smart phones etc kids had other things to occupy their time and that hasn't changed. Our biggest challenge is that kids are involved in multiple activities such as football, hurling, music, drama and training for them can conflict with scouting activities. The kids sometimes need to make a call on which they can/want to do on a particular day.

Thanks for the kind words. I do it because I enjoy it but it is a commitment. It's not the 1 hour a week I was told when I signed up

Interaction between the organisations is limited - there are 2 guide organisations btw. Boys only have scouts but we don't find having guides in the same town as a problem. The problem is the opposite - we have a huge waiting list to get in and a lot of groups would be very similar. So no - not competing for members.

Orion

dulpit wrote: »

Hey fellow scouter! Just wondering - which county/group you with? What section do you lead? And do you find that the overall scouting experience has improved or gotten worse in the last few years?

I'm also itching to answer the questions already asked, but will allow you to respond...

P.S. Icelandic tents, if properly maintained, are the best tents to use for camping - way way way better than a dome tent (unless you're on the hills or need a lot of mobility).

I'm currently section leader for Scouts (12-15 year olds for those who don't know). I'm only back in scouting about 4 years so I can't really answer that. In our group and county there is a very good support network so you can learn as little or as much as you want. Your mileage may vary around the country of course.

I'll PM my group to you.

Gloomtastic!

Orion wrote: »

But the vetting process is a pain in the ass and now we have to renew it every three years - the form gets you to list every address you've ever lived in and you have to do it for every organisation that you volunteer in if there's more than one. This process needs to be streamlined to ensure that people who are willing to join any organisation aren't put off by an

Renewing the Garda vetting every three years. Is that just a Scout thing or for all childrens volunteers? I volunteer with several local clubs and haven't heard that before.

Orion

It's coming in. The legislation has been sitting on the Minister's desk for a couple of years now waiting to be enacted. Scouting Ireland have implemented this as part of its internal policy but it will be mandatory for all organisations that work with children, elderly or the vulnerable.

I think this was a missed opportunity to revamp the system. In other jurisdictions you get vetted and renew it very 2 or 3 years. Once vetted you are issued with a registration number and then you give that to any organisation you volunteer with. They confirm it's valid and you're good to go. Here if you volunteer with more than one organisation you need to fill in the same form, have it sent to the same office for the same Gardai to check it. If they did it the other way it would reduce the amount of paperwork and reduce the waiting time for it to be completed. I believe the lead time is back up to about 4 months now.

TheGreatMotif

Just a few questions,

Your thoughts on Vision 20/20?
What province are you from?
Your opinions on atheists in Scouting?
Do you have a county shield?
How many teams do you enter?
Are you attending the 2015 WSJ?

That question on atheists was not meant to imply anything, just that it mentions that Scouts is open to anyone, but you still have to have a higher belief, and the Scout promise still encourages the idea of a higher deity, PS my friend is currently working on a alternative secular promise to suit all religions :-)

Orion

TheGreatMotif wrote: »

Just a few questions,

Your thoughts on Vision 20/20?
What province are you from?
Your opinions on atheists in Scouting?
Do you have a county shield?
How many teams do you enter?
Are you attending the 2015 WSJ?

That question on atheists was not meant to imply anything, just that it mentions that Scouts is open to anyone, but you still have to have a higher belief, and the Scout promise still encourages the idea of a higher deity, PS my friend is currently working on a alternative secular promise to suit all religions :-)

On the phone now not doing the whole quote thing.

20/20. Like any large framework it had good and bad points. The biggest problem and the reason it was voted down was the lack of consultation in drafting it. This is a problem is scouting in general. There will be a new chief scout and secretary this year and all the candidates who's ideas I've read have committed to improving that. That said the latest edict, since retracted, from the nmc did nothing to help their case.

Province: SE
County shield: yes. We enter 2 teams. Usually around 13 in total in the competition.
Japan: No

Atheists in scouting: I am one so I'm biased. I believe scouting should be open to everyone regardless of their personal beliefs. BP seemed to agree as he approved a number of national and organisations promises that don't reference a belief in God. The alternative promise is a step in the right direction but doesn't go far enough for some people and I do agree that a Secular Promise is needed. By the way a Secular Promise suits people of no religion not all religions. It wouldn't replace the religious promise. It would be an alternative that people could choose to use. If your friend is female then I probably know her too. The first option in their document has already been adopted by the nmc. They are bringing it to nc2015 with a view to bringing a motion to nc2016.

Orion

Just want to point out that although some of my comments might read political I'm not running for any office in scouting. I'm a programme scouter through and through. I've no interest in political office - I just want to deliver a good scouting programme at local level for our youth members.

Cookie_Monster

Which is better; Lough Dan or Larch Hill?

dulpit

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Which is better; Lough Dan or Larch Hill?

Slopey or midges? :pac:

Orion

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Which is better; Lough Dan or Larch Hill?

Larch Hill. Love the place ever since I was a kid in 14th Ballyroan as a cub and 81st Terenure College as a scout.

It was only when I became a leader a few years ago that I ever went in a car to Larch Hill. When I was a kid we always hiked up there.

miamee

For the uninitiated-never-been-in-the-scouts among us can you explain what the abbreviations are that you are using?

I'm guessing BP is Baden Powell?!

NMC?
NC 2015?
WSJ ?

I was in the Girl Guides briefly as a child but for some reason it didn't 'stick' for me. I think the idea of it was more exciting than the reality of being in the local church hall gathered around a table doing a craft of some description with other girls who knew it all :pac: Perhaps I should have joined scouts but I'm not sure girls were allowed in the 80s? If not, when was it opened to girls? I always thought scouts were for boys, guides/brownies were for girls.

Orion

miamee wrote: »

For the uninitiated-never-been-in-the-scouts among us can you explain what the abbreviations are that you are using?

I'm guessing BP is Baden Powell?!

NMC?
NC 2015?
WSJ ?

I was in the Girl Guides briefly as a child but for some reason it didn't 'stick' for me. I think the idea of it was more exciting than the reality of being in the local church hall gathered around a table doing a craft of some description with other girls who knew it all :pac: Perhaps I should have joined scouts but I'm not sure girls were allowed in the 80s? If not, when was it opened to girls? I always thought scouts were for boys, guides/brownies were for girls.

BP is Baden Powell.
NMC is National Management Committee
NC is National Council - numbers are the year. It's held every year in March - equivalent of an union's annual Congress.
WSJ - World Scout Jamboree. Held every 5 years. This is it's in Japan.

Girls were allowed in to Venturers in 1983. Other sections followed after that.

Dozen Wicked Words

Sorry, couple more questions if thats OK?

What are the subs for your troop (presumably scouts in Ireland generally)?

Is there anything you find more of a chore than enjoyable as a Leader?

Would you have had cause to exclude kids from your troop for poor behaviour?

Do you expect a minimum attendance?

Promise that I won't bombard you with any more questions!

Orion

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Sorry, couple more questions if thats OK?

What are the subs for your troop (presumably scouts in Ireland generally)?

Is there anything you find more of a chore than enjoyable as a Leader?

Would you have had cause to exclude kids from your troop for poor behaviour?

Do you expect a minimum attendance?

Promise that I won't bombard you with any more questions!

We charge 150 a year. That includes SI registration and insurance. The rest goes towards running costs of the den and programme materials.
Chore: the paperwork I'm section leader so I look after the paperwork for the scout section. It's not much of a chore - I have it organised enough to keep it easy to update.
We have never excluded a child for behaviour. Some can be a bit more 'challenging' than others but they are all enthusiastic and willing to learn. If you keep them entertained with new things they respond well to that.
We expect them there every week. Obviously there will be weeks that they can't make it but if they don't appear for a period we'll contact the parents to see if there's a problem. If they've just lost interest or can't commit then we may offer their place to someone on the waiting list.

Keep em coming. I've no problem answering questions. Particularly from people who don't know much about scouting if you're reading. There's no such thing as a stupid question - only stupid answers

John_D80

Hi Orion. Former SAI scout here. Loved every minute of my time in it. Thanks for your time here. I have a son, 12 who has recently expressed an interest in getting involved. I'd love to get on board as well myself if he got into it.

What characteristics and life experience do you consider beneficial to someone (adult) who wants to be a scout leader?


To what level, if any, do you, as a group, rely on assistance from parents? For instance, do you guys look for parent volunteers to join ye on outings to help out with supervising so many scouts?

Do you have kids of your own involved in the Cubs/Scouts?

cyning

So this might be a stupid question: but why scouts? Like what sort of things do you do there? Also what age does scouts start from? I know nothing about it, although I think my brother may have been in the sea scouts for a year!

Orion

John_D80 wrote: »

Hi Orion. Former SAI scout here. Loved every minute of my time in it. Thanks for your time here. I have a son, 12 who has recently expressed an interest in getting involved. I'd love to get on board as well myself if he got into it.

What characteristics and life experience do you consider beneficial to someone (adult) who wants to be a scout leader?

Why wait? You can get involved anyway. Life experience not really necessary - we've leaders with ages ranging from 20 to 60. And with all levels of ability. All you really need to bring to it is enthusiasm and an enjoyment of working with kids. Some people are suited to different age ranges - myself I prefer working with teenagers. Some are better with younger kids in cubs and beavers. But there's a role to suit everyone.

John_D80 wrote: »

To what level, if any, do you, as a group, rely on assistance from parents? For instance, do you guys look for parent volunteers to join ye on outings to help out with supervising so many scouts?

Not on outings or camps - we have enough leaders to do that. There would also be issues around Child Protection in having people there un-vetted - particularly on camps. But we do rely on parents to fundraise. We recently built a new den and have a mortgage to service on it so fundraising is very important and scouters have enough to be doing.

John_D80 wrote: »

Do you have kids of your own involved in the Cubs/Scouts?

I do - my girls are both in cubs currently.

Orion

cyning wrote: »

So this might be a stupid question: but why scouts? Like what sort of things do you do there? Also what age does scouts start from? I know nothing about it, although I think my brother may have been in the sea scouts for a year!

The only stupid question is the one you don't ask

I'll give a general answer and if you want more details ask more.
Scouting ranges from 6-26 (that's not a typo). 6-8 is beavers, 9-11 is cubs, 12-14 or 15 is scouts, 15-17 is ventures and over 18 is rovers.

We do all sorts of things - mainly outdoor activities.
Pioneering - making structures with spars and rope. Tables, altar fires, gates, cooking areas - you name it.
Backwoods - survival skills. Firelighting, cooking on open fires, cooking by other methods (e.g. earth ovens), building natural shelters, etc
Camping.
Emergencies - First aid. One of my proudest moments was when my kids were aged about 8 came home from beavers and demonstrated putting each other in a perfect recovery position.
Hillwalking. Orienteering. Mapwork. Safety in the out of doors.
Water skills and air skills are primarily done by sea and air scouts. Not many air scouts left but some sea scouts scattered around the country. We do touch on those skills in the land scouts though.
Community service - assisting in the community is core. We help with the Senior Citizens and other areas in our town.

We go on camps all over the place. Last year we spent a week in Fermanagh and did canoeing, raft building, mountain biking, spent a night in a bothy on an island, cooked a ham in the ground - gorgeous, and other activities.

Why scouts? For all this. I love being out of doors and the kids do too once given a chance. They learn skills in scouts that they won't learn in any other organisation and those skills stay with them for life. And don't think adults don't learn either - we're always learning new things ourselves. We try them out and then bring them to scouting.

In April I'm bringing two teams to a survivor weekend in Munster. Very limited equipment allowed - no pots, cooking utensils, matches, tents. Sleeping in bivvies and cooking with natural materials all weekend. Where else are teenagers going to get an opportunity to do that?

GLaDOS

Do you ever have trouble getting kids to engage? When I was in scouts (over 10 years ago now) there was some kids who seemed like they really couldn't be arsed, put in the minimal effort, didn't bother much with hikes and camps etc. Is there much you can do to get a kid more enthusiastic about it?

I was the opposite, went to every outing and was competitive about all the knot tying, first aid, get tents up properly etc :pac:

Dilbert75

Former ACSL in SAI days - do you ever get the feeling that some parents use Scouts as a cheap babysitting service?

Orion

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Do you ever have trouble getting kids to engage? When I was in scouts (over 10 years ago now) there was some kids who seemed like they really couldn't be arsed, put in the minimal effort, didn't bother much with hikes and camps etc. Is there much you can do to get a kid more enthusiastic about it?

I was the opposite, went to every outing and was competitive about all the knot tying, first aid, get tents up properly etc :pac:

Occasionally you get the odd kid who's only there because friends are there and not really into the whole scouting thing. But it's fairly rare and we generally get them engaged somehow. You just need to find a hook to get then interested - everyone has one. There will always be some areas that appeal to people more than others but that's normal and we just get through it. At the moment we have a very enthusiastic bunch who are up for anything.

Orion

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Former ACSL in SAI days - do you ever get the feeling that some parents use Scouts as a cheap babysitting service?

It happens. The vast majority of parents are very supportive and appreciative of the time we put in for their children. But there will always be one or two who don't engage at all and just drop their kids off at the door and say bye for a couple of hours. Doesn't really bother me tbh - I'm there for the kids not the parents.

The scouts appreciate what we do. I was on camp one time and asked one of the scouts to fill up a billy can with water so we could stick on the kettle and he refused. His Patrol Leader turned to him and said "you don't say no to a leader - he's given up his weekend for us". Little indications of acknowledgement like that make it worth it.

John_D80

Loving this AMA! Thanks again.

Whats the hierarchy/rank structure in a scout troop these days?

To what degree are the Patrol Leaders and senior scouts allowed to take control of Junior members?

How do ye select Patrol leaders?

Would ye ever come across a situation where a Patrol Leader/senior scout would abuse their position? How would ye deal with this?

Do ye ever have problems with bullying between scouts?

Orion

John_D80 wrote: »

Loving this AMA! Thanks again.

Whats the hierarchy/rank structure in a scout troop these days?

To what degree are the Patrol Leaders and senior scouts allowed to take control of Junior members?

How do ye select Patrol leaders?

Would ye ever come across a situation where a Patrol Leader/senior scout would abuse their position? How would ye deal with this?

Do ye ever have problems with bullying between scouts?

Hierarchy hasn't changed all that much in 40 years. Group Leader, Deputy Group Leader(s), Section Leaders. All scouters have a say in the running of a group through a regular Group Council.

PLs run their patrol but more as a guide and point person. If they have a problem with a patrol member they come to us.

The scouts vote for people they want as PLs or APLs. From the ones they vote for we decide who becomes PL or APL. This was the scouts decision. They used to just vote but they realised themselves that it was becoming a popularity contest and occasionaly one who gets the most votes isn't necessarily the best leadership material. Our government could possibly learn something from that

We haven't had anyone abuse their position. We've had occasion where maybe the PL wasn't pulling weight but in that case we just give him/her better training to be a more effective leader.

We haven't had bullying within the group either. There will always be teenage hormones at play and arguments might develop but thankfully nothing long term that would be considered bullying.

Conchir

I realise it's probably not your area of expertise but you mentioned air scouts - what do they do? I've never been involved with scouting but I'd have a fair enough understanding of scouts and sea scouts just from hearing things basically, never even heard of air scouts though.

beertons

Is the prayer still the same? I remember saying it over and over with a friend, as his dad drove us out to a place with prefabs in Rathangan. The place was condemned soon after. Good craic though, it was my maiden trip away with them.

I remember a cub leader, we all called him skip. After leaving, I found out his name was Peter. Fast forward to last year, my little neighbour next door was away with the cubs, and we had the same leader. He's still there! Kinda mad how we have something in common.

Fair play man, I admire leaders. You do a super job.

4th kildare, 90-97.

Orion

Conchir wrote: »

I realise it's probably not your area of expertise but you mentioned air scouts - what do they do? I've never been involved with scouting but I'd have a fair enough understanding of scouts and sea scouts just from hearing things basically, never even heard of air scouts though.

They're quite rare in this country. They focus on flying just as sea scouts focus on water. I think there's only 1 air group in Ireland but Air is one of the 9 adventure skills:

• Camping
• Hillwalking
• Pioneering
• Backwoods
• Emergencies
• Sailing
• Paddling
• Rowing
• Air

Orion

beertons wrote: »

Is the prayer still the same? I remember saying it over and over with a friend, as his dad drove us out to a place with prefabs in Rathangan. The place was condemned soon after. Good craic though, it was my maiden trip away with them.

I remember a cub leader, we all called him skip. After leaving, I found out his name was Peter. Fast forward to last year, my little neighbour next door was away with the cubs, and we had the same leader. He's still there! Kinda mad how we have something in common.

Fair play man, I admire leaders. You do a super job.

4th kildare, 90-97.

7th Rathangan are back up and running - you should get in touch. Very active group - they reformed about 2 years ago iirc.

Prayer is still the same (it's the prayer of St. Ignatius written about 600 years ago) but it's not actually part of SI constitution. Some groups say it and others don't.

Orion

I thought I saw another question here earlier but only for a chance to answer it now. Was it deleted?

Pat Mustard

First question. I was in the CBSI, which seemed to be a more regimental and religious outfit than the Scouts of Ireland. The cub scout ranks were (macaoimh ranks); Árd Rí, Rí, Aire, First Macaoimh (I think). What are those ranks called now?

Second question. When I was in the cubs/macaoimh/CBSI there was a large emphasis on Catholicism. Is the emphasis on religion still there or is it gone now?

Yea I deleted my questions when I read over them later and realised they were not actually that good or interesting. Mostly they were related to transparency and self-policing in terms of your adults alone with children policies. Nothing much of note.

Orion

The Mustard wrote: »

First question. I was in the CBSI, which seemed to be a more regimental and religious outfit than the Scouts of Ireland. The cub scout ranks were (macaoimh ranks); Árd Rí, Rí, Aire, First Macaoimh (I think). What are those ranks called now?

Second question. When I was in the cubs/macaoimh/CBSI there was a large emphasis on Catholicism. Is the emphasis on religion still there or is it gone now?

I don't actually remember those ranks. There are sixers and seconders for each clan. Similar to PL/APL in Scouts.

There is an emphasis on spirituality rather than religion. Spiritual development is part of the scouting method now. Different groups operate that in different ways.

Dilbert75

What is the biggest single change you'd like to see in Irish Scouting? Why? Do you think it'll ever happen? If so, when? If not, why not?