Trying terminate our leading contract, any help greatly appreciated.

HOS19

So we, four profession ladies between the ages of 21-23, have been renting a property with a 30 year old highly educated professional gentlemen. The lease is signed by all 5 of us.
As of late he has become increasingly intimidating and we had an incident very recently where he restrained one of from leaving the kitchen until she cleaned up the sink more. She refused and he proceeded to block her exit until she began to scream for help. The incident left her shaken and we contacted the gardai. The gardai were helpful but as it was a civil matter and no crime had been committed they could not intervene. They did however contact our landlady to inform her he was concerned for our welfare. Since this we are fearful of our safety as he can be unpredictable and sometimes hotheaded.
We have been living with him for approx 8 months and things have been slowly getting worse. 2 months ago we were forced to block his phone number after a series of harassing text messages. We had stopped all verbal contact with him since then and have been living in silence up until this incident. There have been more minor civil incidents but it would take me forever to explain them.
We have decided to terminate our lease contract with 42 days notice. We have spoken with the landlady and she is also concerned for our safety in the house and she herself is seeking legal advice. We have spoken with threshold and citizens information but they do not have the information we need. Hence I am here to see if we can get any help.
Our concern is regarding terminating our contract, as his name is on the contract too, is the termination letter valid??
We need to get out of here as soon as possible. It has become unbearable to live here trying to constantly avoid him.
Does anyone know the law around disputes between tenants and tenants.

Also would it be a bad idea to give our notice and just leave? We are prepared to loose out deposit of we have to.
What happens him if we leave? Should we tell him we are leaving or let the landlady break the news?

Kristopherus

Would it not be a better option to get rid of yer man? If the 4 of you sign a letter to the landlady stating that he is causing difficulties in relation to all your health & welfare,the ball will be in her court. If she takes no action, then give her a reasonable deadline. Why should 4 of you have to leave because of the actions of one?

HOS19

Thanks for your reply.... This guy is highly educated in the law field and knows all his rights. Our landlady is pretty apprehensive to take any actions against him given his background. This guy is trouble with a capital T! He has been taking pictures of dirty dishes and pictures of an overflown bin on one occasion. He knows we have been finding it difficult to live with him for a long time and has been no doubt building a case against us.
Kicking him out is going to be a long long road as he will appeal and that means months of trouble.
Terminating our lease is the quickest and simplist answer we can find. But even so he's gona make it so tricky.

The_Morrigan

His highly educated mind should be aware that you are all jointly and severely liable for the rent then, so it would be in his best interests to cooperate, rather than having to pay all the rent while the rest of the tenants have abandoned ship (with the permission of the landlady).

Ring Threshold about this.

drumswan

Nothing tricky about it. Look for somewhere else and leave ASAP. I wouldnt worry about the notice period either , the problem tenant has no legal recourse against you and the landlord is not going to take a case if four of you are saying the situation is unsafe.

Ray Palmer

Kristopherus wrote: »

Would it not be a better option to get rid of yer man? If the 4 of you sign a letter to the landlady stating that he is causing difficulties in relation to all your health & welfare,the ball will be in her court. If she takes no action, then give her a reasonable deadline. Why should 4 of you have to leave because of the actions of one?

Not really. Any sane person would not get involved with this. People sharing argue and people group together for a number of reasons.

Just move out and tell him

chickenlicken2

HOS19 wrote: »

We have spoken with the landlady and she is also concerned for our safety in the house and she herself is seeking legal advice. We have spoken with threshold and citizens information but they do not have the information we need. Hence I am here to see if we can get any help.
Our concern is regarding terminating our contract, as his name is on the contract too, is the termination letter valid??
We need to get out of here as soon as possible. It has become unbearable to live here trying to constantly avoid him.
Does anyone know the law around disputes between tenants and tenants.

Also would it be a bad idea to give our notice and just leave? We are prepared to loose out deposit of we have to.
What happens him if we leave? Should we tell him we are leaving or let the landlady break the news?

You are going to get into a lot of legal complexities with this. I think personally as the landlady is being very receptive to you your best bet would be to have an open channel of communication with her. I would suggest you meet with her to discuss your concerns and options. You've already mentioned she is concerned for your safety which would imply that she is going to be open and fair minded and it this.

For your own mental health physical health etc not a good environment to be living in. Meet with the landlady, put it to her that you need to get out and see what she comes back with.

Mrs OBumble

drumswan wrote: »

Nothing tricky about it. Look for somewhere else and leave ASAP. I wouldnt worry about the notice period either , the problem tenant has no legal recourse against you and the landlord is not going to take a case if four of you are saying the situation is unsafe.

This +1000.

Don't be getting all legal here: a legal solution would be complex and costly, and take ages to get: as Threshold and Citizens Information have already told you, the legal position is not well known, so finding it would take lawyers a likely a judge.

You are jointly and severally liable for the rent - but the chances of the LL chasing you for it are small, given the situation.

Speak to the LL again, tell her that your plan is to move out and ask her to give you a good reference. Highly likely that she will do so, because by moving out you solve the immediate problem for her.

Then find somewhere new, move as soon as you can, and negotiate with the current LL re the notice that you individually give.

After that, the LL can hit up other-guy for the whole rent (he's as liable as you). He can either find housemates who he can get on with, or move out himself.




And next time, pick your housemates more carefully! (Or don't allow the LL to pick them for you, if that's what happened here.)

antoinolachtnai

This is a different view. The behaviour you have described is unacceptable and you certainly need to bring this situation to an end. I would say you have to stick together and take on this bully. If he really digs his heels in, you won't necessarily be able to run away from this problem. (See below.)

It is a tough time to rent and it seems to me that this means that you could get pursued for a lot of arrears with this issue if you cut-and-run. In law at least, it is definitely not the landlord's problem. If you leave and leave him in the property, you will all continue to be liable for the rent. It isn't just a matter of losing your deposit. Worst case, this situation could continue for months pending a PRTB ruling to finally kick him out. If this guy doesn't pay the rent, then you will have to pay it. You are young professional people, and you can't risk having a PRTB ruling against you and not paying it. This might work for other people, but it won't work for you.

I should add, this is really unusual stuff. No one really wants to give you advice because nobody really knows. It isn't a landlord-tenant dispute. It's really a domestic dispute. It's really for yourselves to sort out and courts and Tribunals generally don't want to get involved in what are basically private affairs. If you can't resolve it amongst the five of you, then that is certainly a big problem for you all.

I have been involved (at the fringes, as a friend of a landlord, whose sister happened to be the head tenant) in a slightly similar case where the licensee stayed on after the head tenant had left. The circumstances were different, but the answer to the situation was to stand up to the bully. A few days after writing letters and giving notice, the bully just left.)

Here is what I would do. If the Garda was concerned for your welfare, he should have spoken to this person. If he has not done this, you should ask him to do this now. It would appear to me that there is at least a possibility that this person has committed an offence under the Non Fatal Offences against the Person Act although you would need to ask the Garda or to take legal advice in relation to this. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0015.html#sec15 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0010.html#sec10

Following the Garda being involved, I would call a meeting of all tenants, with this person invited. He probably won't come. If he doesn't, get something in writing to him and tell him that all the other tenants have decided he cannot live with you anymore. Tell him that the matter has become very serious, and that the Garda have been involved, and that the landlord is unhappy with the situation and is threatening to serve you notice if he does not leave. Tell him in writing that he has to leave by a certain date and that you are happy to allow his name to be removed from the lease, that the landlord has agreed to this (establish this in advance) and that you will give him his deposit back as soon as he moves out. If he does come to the meeting, tell him that your household has essentially broken down, and that there are two options, that he takes over the lease in its entirety and the four of you move out, or that he moves out. Make it clear that it is your preference that he moves out. But if he wants to take over the lease, give you all back your deposits right away and find new flat mates for himself, I would certainly consider leaving it to him.

The landlord might be willing to somehow mediate or chair in relation to any meeting. But on the other hand they might not. It is not really their responsibility. I am sure you are capable people, but it would help a lot to have an older, more experienced person at the meeting or to give advice, to keep everything calm but still get everything done.

I think the above would bring the whole thing to a resolution of some sort. But if this still doesn't work, you have a big problem. Another alternative would be to have a further meeting to consider his behaviour, and if you as a group believe it is sufficiently grave, resolve to throw him out and then do so. He would remain a tenant on the lease until the matter was resolved, but he would have been excluded from the household because of his behaviour. I think this could well be a reasonable next step, but for sure this is legally problematic and to be in line with the boards.ie rules and the Charter I have to advise that you would get legal advice before considering doing this. As a matter of practice, I think it would be very difficult for him to get back in. That said, he might act in a very threatening manner and you would have to consider how you would deal with that.

If the four of you give notice to the landlord, and he stands over his 'rights', then he could certainly argue that the notice to leave that you gave the landlord isn't valid, because he hadn't consented to it. You or the landlord would need to get a legal opinion to find out whether this would be a viable legal position, but he could certainly use this thin excuse to stay (or to use the jargon 'overhold') in the premises until a PRTB hearing. You would all then continue to be liable for his rent if he didn't pay it in full.

One other option legally would be for the landlord to give you all notice to leave. The grounds could be this tenant's antisocial behaviour. This would apply to you all. If this guy appealed to PRTB, you would be witnesses on behalf of the landlord. If he did leave, there would be nothing to stop you all moving back into the premises providing you and the landlord were happy to enter a new lease. The problem is if this person refuses to vacate. You will all be liable for his rent and any damage caused until he does vacate (at least legally speaking).

In this tough rental market, you will no doubt need a landlord's reference if you leave, and for this reason it is very important to keep the landlord on-side to some degree.

This doesn't have any simple remedy unfortunately. But I do think you have to keep control of the situation as much as possible.

drumswan

The above is nonsense, if the landlord cannot provide a safe environment for the OP then she should leave and break the lease. No ifs, buts or maybes.

Rasmus

Just leave, stay with friends if you need to. The LL won't ask you to give notice/ask for money. If she does, I would not even worry about the end result of that. If you lose a deposit, who cares? Just leave.

Victor

It may be useful to get legal advice between the four of you. Consider whether a safety order or similar is appropriate.

You could of course come to an agreement with the landlord to terminate the contract and to sign a new agreement once the fifth has moved out.

josip

HOS19 wrote: »

... where he restrained one of from leaving the kitchen until she cleaned up the sink more. She refused and he proceeded to block her exit until she began to scream for help. ...

HOS19 wrote: »

....This guy is highly educated in the law field and knows all his rights...

If it's as you say in your opening post, that would seem like a case of false imprisonment to me.
Why did the Guards decide it was a civil matter?

spaceHopper

Something doesn’t add up here, he’s in his 30’s you are all under 24, did you know him before you moved in together? Was he in a relationship with one of you? His pissed off because your flat mate left a mess behind in the kitchen and wouldn't clean it up so he blocked her from leaving and told her to clean it up. You said “restrained” that implies he touched her but the Guards said no crime was committed. He’s been taking photos of messes left behind by all of you but not of you? Why are you leaving a mess behind.

OK he’s handled it badly, why has he gotten so frustrated? What was in the text messages? You’ve all been giving him the silent treatment? To me it sounds like there is wrong on both sides. Four of you ignoring him till he gives up and moves out doesn't sound right to me. What else has been going on?

What had being professionals got to do with or him being well educated.

Mrs OBumble

josip wrote: »

If it's as you say in your opening post, that would seem like a case of false imprisonment to me.
Why did the Guards decide it was a civil matter?

Presumably because being asked to clean up the mess you left in the kitchen isn't unreasonable.

Seriously - if the guard really thought that these women were in any danger, he would have taken steps to deal with it, perhaps cautioning the 5th housemate. The fact that he didn't speaks volumes.

antoinolachtnai

No doubt there is a lot that can be said but I can't see that apportioning blame will really help. This household has failed, for whatever reason, and it needs to be somehow dissolved in a way that will cause the least hassle, distress and expense to everybody involved.

davo10

Anyone who has ever shared a house knows how frustrating it is when others use the kitchen and don't clean up or keep piling rubbish in the bin without emptying it. If this had been going on for a while, I'd be rightly pissed off as well particularly if one person flatly refused to clean up their mess when asked. Different people have different standards of cleanliness, when a clean freak meets a slob, the results are usually not pretty.