No. of Cows Needed to Farm Full Time After Quotas

TheClubMan

Hi folks,

With the removal of quotas fast approaching and the probability of a reduced price, I was wondering how many cows you would need to milk to farm full time and a earn a decent living?

I'm milking 30 cows here at the moment on 80 acres of reasonably good land and have a full time job with a wage of 420 a week.

How many cows would I have to milk to justify giving up the full time job?

Thanks for your opinions.

Farmer Pudsey

The question is not so much how may cows you need to farm full time but how many can your farm carry. I have seen dairy farmers survive(and I use the word survive advisedy) with 30 cows, however in general most lads seem to have a good living if they get to 60 goodish cow. However one llad I talk to always has the opinion that a farmer can manage a herd of 70-75 cows very well after that he is not able to see the little thing that make a difference

grazeaway

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The question is not so much how may cows you need to farm full time but how many can your farm carry. I have seen dairy farmers survive(and I use the word survive advisedy) with 30 cows, however in general most lads seem to have a good living if they get to 60 goodish cow. However one llad I talk to always has the opinion that a farmer can manage a herd of 70-75 cows very well after that he is not able to see the little thing that make a difference

I think this is more relevant. Have a similar sized farm and have looked at it too. Farm could take say 60-70 cows but I only have housing for about 50.

If your milking 30 now and the farm could carry 60 plus replacements how much will doubling your housing and slurry storage? Also the time to milk the cows for 1 person should be around 60-90 mins so as too allow time for the other things on the farm. Bearing in mind doubling in size your herd will require twice as much infrastructure will you need to spend a lot of money to upgrade?
If so can you afford to pay that back without the job?

Also can you contuine to do the same work at the same time?

Timmaay

In terms of labour units, once you are setup with a compact spring calving lowish maintenance herd, there isn't a whole lot of difference in the work required to milk 30 or 100, they all still need to be milked twice a day, one calving season, breeding season etc. Following on from what FP said, in your case it makes since to maximize what your farm can carry, 80acres of good land should hold 80cows comfortably if you can rent land nearby for replacements/silage, however you would need to work out how much capital expenditure it would take to add say 50cows onto your system (between stock, grazing infrastructure, winter accommodation/slurry storage, milking facilitates, fodder storage etc), a question I don't think enough farmers don't ask often enough is what is too high a figure to spend on this, ie the capital cost per cow or per litre for expansion.

mikefoxo

I saw an article in the Farming Indo two weeks ago I think it was, that said the top 10% could earn the average industrial wage by milking 55 cows

onyerbikepat

...at current milk prices.

yellow50HX

TheClubMan wrote: »

Hi folks,

With the removal of quotas fast approaching and the probability of a reduced price, I was wondering how many cows you would need to milk to farm full time and a earn a decent living?

I'm milking 30 cows here at the moment on 80 acres of reasonably good land and have a full time job with a wage of 420 a week.

How many cows would I have to milk to justify giving up the full time job?

Thanks for your opinions.

Whatever number that will sell enough milk to cover all your costs and provide you with a decent wage.

joejobrien

mikefoxo wrote: »

I saw an article in the Farming Indo two weeks ago I think it was, that said the top 10% could earn the average industrial wage by milking 55 cows

Based on what??????????????????????????:eek:

Nekarsulm

If you are selling milk below the cost of production, dosent matter how many you have............:(

Markcheese

onyerbikepat wrote: »

...at current milk prices.

Kind of important fact !!
if a farmer isn't making money off 30 or 40 or whatever , who's to say he won't lose a hell of a lot more milking 100 -

sh1tstirrer

Nekarsulm wrote: »

If you are selling milk below the cost of production, dosent matter how many you have............:(

It does, the more you have the more you lose

AP2014

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

It does, the more you have the more you lose

Too easy!

TheClubMan

mikefoxo wrote: »

I saw an article in the Farming Indo two weeks ago I think it was, that said the top 10% could earn the average industrial wage by milking 55 cows

Do you have a link to this article. Sounds interesting

TheClubMan

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I have seen dairy farmers survive(and I use the word survive advisedy) with 30 cows

Do you think lads can survive with 30 cows can survive after the quotas are removed?

Farmer Pudsey

TheClubMan wrote: »

Do you think lads can survive with 30 cows can survive after the quotas are removed?

Yes it will put beans and toast on the table for him and a few pints, not for any more than him though

Greengrass1

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yes it will put beans and toast on the table for him and a few pints, not for any more than him though

Has to be better than 30 suckler cows puds

sh1tstirrer

TheClubMan wrote: »

Do you think lads can survive with 30 cows can survive after the quotas are removed?

What's the fascination with milk price dropping when quotas go? We are getting world market prices for the last 10 years or more even with quotas. Quotas didn't protect milk prices in 09.

keep going

take profit from milking current herd minus sfp and divide by number of cows at present.then divide 21840 by profit per cow and walla the number of cows extra you need to milk.without getting into a tizzy over cost of living figures or investment for extra cows.

Timmaay

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Has to be better than 30 suckler cows puds

Hmmmm if someone put a gun to my head and told me I had to keep 30 sucklers and make nothing on them, or be home twice a day every day to milk 30cows for about 3quid per hour I'd probably take the 1st one!

Greengrass1

Timmaay wrote: »

Hmmmm if someone put a gun to my head and told me I had to keep 30 sucklers and make nothing on them, or be home twice a day every day to milk 30cows for about 3quid per hour I'd probably take the 1st one!

Robot
Sure way of not having the 3e an hour

Farmer Pudsey

OP it seems you are hesitant about making the jump from part time to full time milking. You really need to sit down to calculate what it will cost for different options. Milking and working is tought going. Are your present cows milking 5K litres+. I imagine with 80 acres you have a small beef operation as well.

There will be a TAMS scheme this year. It will afford you the opportunity to put extra cows places in place and to upgrade your parlour if you have the skillset to expand. Neither I nor GG nor anyone else can do that for you. Have you got replacement heifers in place, if not did you plan to buy in.

If it was me I be putting every cow in calf so as that I could have 12-15 heifers in place in for three years time and the same next year. It all about planning it will not happen its self. Try to get to 42-45 cows first and then to 54-58 and then build up to what you are comfortable with on your farm. Decide on a system wheather it is high o/p HO cows middle of the road cows or crossbreds like GG. Join a discussion group.

Forget about the number you can survive on think about how far you can push your farm.

mf240

Timmaay wrote: »

Hmmmm if someone put a gun to my head and told me I had to keep 30 sucklers and make nothing on them, or be home twice a day every day to milk 30cows for about 3quid per hour I'd probably take the 1st one!

Tell him to pull the trigger and milk them himself.

_Brian

I think OP would be mad to dump one of his income streams.
30 cows ran well will supplement his wage well, and if the price takes a dip them the wage still keeps coming.

30 cows debt free is better than 50 and the milk from 20 going to the bank as repayments.

onyerbikepat

You have to admire someone who is willing to work a 40 hour week off farm and then milk cows twice a day aswell. Maybe it could be done for a few years if the guy was young. Make the investments in roads, reseeding, parlour, sheds etc and then write of cost at the higher rate of income tax.

howdee

Try and up the cows slowly and do abit of building work every year but keep the borrowings low. There are plenty of good dairy farmers making a very good living off 40-50 cows while finishing and rearing followers. I suppose you need to know what your cows are really making at the moment to know will you make more if you double the herd. Ya can't beat been your own boss but at the same time you can beat guarenteed money.

mahoney_j

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

What's the fascination with milk price dropping when quotas go? We are getting world market prices for the last 10 years or more even with quotas. Quotas didn't protect milk prices in 09.

09 was bad luck,poor milk markets returns and the one thing everyone seems to forget the collapse and crash of most economy's in the world.perfect storm

frazzledhome

Here you go

Future Farmer

TheClubMan wrote: »

Hi folks,

With the removal of quotas fast approaching and the probability of a reduced price, I was wondering how many cows you would need to milk to farm full time and a earn a decent living?

I'm milking 30 cows here at the moment on 80 acres of reasonably good land and have a full time job with a wage of 420 a week.

How many cows would I have to milk to justify giving up the full time job?

Thanks for your opinions.

How many cows would you need? Well what are your cows doing now, in terms of Milk Solids per cow or the quota they were filling.

Where in the country are you?

Heifers are going at fairly good value at the moment. In terms of expansion, but what facilities have you got? How many cows could you have - tomorrow - shed space, how many clusters in parlour etc.

How many cows do you think you could milk and still work -maximise on what you have.

Farmer Pudsey

_Brian wrote: »

I think OP would be mad to dump one of his income streams.
30 cows ran well will supplement his wage well, and if the price takes a dip them the wage still keeps coming.

30 cows debt free is better than 50 and the milk from 20 going to the bank as repayments.

Bank repayments do not last for ever. 50K borrowed over 10 [EMAIL="years@4%"]years@4%[/EMAIL] will cost 6K/year. 100K over 20 [EMAIL="years@4%"]years@4%[/EMAIL] will cost about 7K/year. Either are very sustainable at 500 and 583/month. 40 extra cows generating an margin of 800 each gives an income of 32K extra. It is all about displine. No new car no fancy tractor forget about investing in machinery, use contractors for silage and slurry forget about bells and whistles it is very doable.

howdee wrote: »

Try and up the cows slowly and do abit of building work every year but keep the borrowings low. There are plenty of good dairy farmers making a very good living off 40-50 cows while finishing and rearing followers. I suppose you need to know what your cows are really making at the moment to know will you make more if you double the herd. Ya can't beat been your own boss but at the same time you can beat guarenteed money.

Very hard to do you will have groups of animals all over the place and able to priotise nothing. Maybe one bunch of weanlings three bunches of yearlings ( beef heifers, dairy heifers and bullocks) a bahn of cows and culls. Messy messy messy.

As opposed to 70 cows and maybe 20 acres rented for silage and yearling heifers.

RightTurnClyde

mahoney_j wrote: »

09 was bad luck,poor milk markets returns and the one thing everyone seems to forget the collapse and crash of most economy's in the world.perfect storm

Agreed, I'm not arguing for or against quota , but I hate it when people use 09 as an argument for quota removal. Using one year ( when the ar*e fell out of everything) out of 30 is not a good argument.

RightTurnClyde

frazzledhome wrote: »

Here you go

I took a snapshot of that board when you put it up last year and I have a look at it every so often.... It always gives me the willies

_Brian

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Bank repayments do not last for ever. 50K borrowed over 10 [EMAIL="years@4%"]years@4%[/EMAIL] will cost 6K/year. 100K over 20 [EMAIL="years@4%"]years@4%[/EMAIL] will cost about 7K/year. Either are very sustainable at 500 and 583/month. 40 extra cows generating an margin of 800 each gives an income of 32K extra. It is all about displine. No new car no fancy tractor forget about investing in machinery, use contractors for silage and slurry forget about bells and whistles it is very doable.





Very hard to do you will have groups of animals all over the place and able to priotise nothing. Maybe one bunch of weanlings three bunches of yearlings ( beef heifers, dairy heifers and bullocks) a bahn of cows and culls. Messy messy messy.

As opposed to 70 cows and maybe 20 acres rented for silage and yearling heifers.

I totally agree that loans don't last forever.
But upping numbers to maybe 60-70 cows while working, it would be a tall order.

If ya had a good laying hen, that would take the pressure off

Farmer Pudsey

_Brian wrote: »

I totally agree that loans don't last forever.
But upping numbers to maybe 60-70 cows while working, it would be a tall order.

If ya had a good laying hen, that would take the pressure off

It is not necessary to go from 30 to 70 cows in one go. However by puttin g a plan in place it is possible to say that in 5 years time milk price premitting( this is more to do with hoping you are not at the wrong stage of milk cycle) that you will go full time.

Building housing in one go will mean that you can avail of grant etc. Say he decides that beause of proposed TAMS that year he will extend his shed this year so that he can expand over next four years. It might make more sence to invest 100K this year avail of 40%(or maybe 60% if a young trained farmer especially if he was on the age limit) that to wait and do it in small pieces.

Lots of people consider that agri builders milk these schemes and this was true of the big 2007/8 scheme. However I build a shed during that and these is no way I could build it for even twice the amount now excluding grant. It is the ability to use these schemes that is the difference between many farmers.

mf240

If it was me (its kind of what i did here)

Id stay working and set up the farm by offsetting spending on sheds, reseeding, water roads ect against tax.

Build up numbers through breeding and when you get to your number and have loans paid then go at it fulltime.

joejobrien

A few points.
1. Farmer pudsey is correct when saying a farmer can manage 70/75 cow comfortable , there after they cant see the woods from the trees!!!! or often the farm yard may be in poor disrepair or no time for maintence.

2. Is It just a wage you want, well 54 cow will deliver this . This will give you an a. ind. wage (35618 euro, 2014 Q2 ....CSO FIGURES.) TOP 10% on teagasc figures. There is possible not much capital expend in these figures though. There is a poster here who was talking of a figure 30 or 32 cents/ litre incl labour (fair play to him for not been afraid). If you have all the infastructure in place and cows to match and skill then your on the way for top 10% but you have to work Sat and Sunday for this.......HA HA and handle the low prices in some of those years..............kiss your income from cows goodbye.

3. If you want your wage and a return on your capital invested then your onto a differnt ball game. I understand that banks are talking of a figure of 32 cents in milk price. do your sums on this . dont dream of .40 cents This profit then pays for living exp, repayements, reinvestment and tax

4. At your income of 21840/ yr, have you considered letting the 80 acres say at a figure of 200/ac giving total 37840/yr. this land lease could fall into the new tax free situation.
Would your salary in the job likely to increse in the future? This would give you 5 day week, security of income, possible increase in paid salary , no headaches from falling milk price, lower tax bill and fine a layin hen!!!!!!!!!
5. Only you can answer the questions