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Is anyone clear on what landord obligations are re Irish Water please?

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  • 02-02-2015 5:53pm
    #1
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭


    My mother's house is rented out to pay for her care fees.

    The tenants who are brilliant BTW have told me that they will not be registering or paying, and sorry about that. They are there three years and hopefully will be for the foreseeable.

    What do I need to do on my mother's behalf does anyone know? Is mum responsible for the tenant's water bills now?

    Irish Water website just gives the following information re those who need to apply,,,,

    Who needs to apply?

    You should apply if:

    you are a property owner and live in the property; or
    you are an occupier and live in the property; or
    you are the owner of a property and there is no occupier in the property (for example a holiday home); or
    you do not have public water services connected to your property (you need to tell us that you are not a customer using this application).

    As Mum does not fall within any of the above categories, I presume we just sit tight for the moment and do nothing?

    Thanks for any info you may have. No point in phoning IW for a few days, as the lines are busy all day.


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    #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    As far as I am concerned it's a utility bill and the tenant should be putting their name against it.


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    #3
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    To ensure your mother is not stuck paying someone elses bill you should inform IW the house is rented and the tenants name.


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    #4
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    It's a utility in the same way the gas and leccy are. The tenants are responsible, even if they don't feel like paying!

    I'd be telling IW the tenant's details and leave it at that. Let them duke it out.


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    #5
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,265 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    Is there a lease, are there any specifics on payment of utilities? Thread carefully before disclosing any personal information of theirs to anybody not authorised to receive it, I know a landlord can ask for a tenants pps number and enter it on a PRTB registration but I'd seek legal advise before disclosing even the tenants name to Irish water


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    #6
    annaP79
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭annaP79


    hey

    not sure if that helps but see my comments, does this make sense?

    You should apply if:

    you are a property owner AND live in the property; or NOT your MUM, she doesn't live in the house right ?

    you are an occupier and live in the property; or THAT'S YOUR TENANTS I THINK

    you are the owner of a property and there is no occupier in the property (for example a holiday home); or THIS IS AGAIN NOT YOUR MUM AS THERE IS OCCUPIER

    you do not have public water services connected to your property (you need to tell us that you are not a customer using this application). I AM ASSUMING THIS IN NOT YOUR MUM EITHER

    but I have no idea how to make them pay though? and my guess is neither does Irish Water
    this whole thing is so disorganized that it is sad to watch

    but do ask them, it would be very interesting to hear what they say
    good luck with it


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    #7
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    My mother's house is rented out to pay for her care fees.

    The tenants who are brilliant BTW have told me that they will not be registering or paying, and sorry about that. They are there three years and hopefully will be for the foreseeable.

    What do I need to do on my mother's behalf does anyone know? Is mum responsible for the tenant's water bills now?

    Irish Water website just gives the following information re those who need to apply,,,,

    Who needs to apply?

    You should apply if:

    you are a property owner and live in the property; or
    you are an occupier and live in the property; or
    you are the owner of a property and there is no occupier in the property (for example a holiday home); or
    you do not have public water services connected to your property (you need to tell us that you are not a customer using this application).

    As Mum does not fall within any of the above categories, I presume we just sit tight for the moment and do nothing?

    Thanks for any info you may have. No point in phoning IW for a few days, as the lines are busy all day.
    It is the tenants bill in the same way that a phone or gas bill is theirs if their name is on the bill.
    MouseTail wrote: »
    To ensure your mother is not stuck paying someone elses bill you should inform IW the house is rented and the tenants name.
    supply the water company with the tenants names and then it is up to the tenants to pay or be chased by the company for the charges. Your mother nor yourselves are not and can not be held liable for any charges at all once you can show that tenants are living in the property.


    ABajaninCork wrote: »
    It's a utility in the same way the gas and leccy are. The tenants are responsible, even if they don't feel like paying!

    I'd be telling IW the tenant's details and leave it at that. Let them duke it out.
    Indeed, just give the names of the tenants or the main householder to the water company and it is then not your responsibility!

    Don't believe or even listen to the absolute crap coming from politicians and water company employees whose main objective has been and is a major PR con job to make it look like the water charges are a massive success, especially after the major turnout for marches on Saturday.

    This company do not have the power to put any kind of lean on any property when you can show that the debt is not yours or your mother's! all that nonsense was "put out" to make landlords feel that if they did not pay the charges and add it to the rent they themselves would be liable! that is the quality of our current batch of civil servants and politicians!


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    #8
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Thank you to all who have tried to assist me in this debacle.

    There is a lease where it says utilities must be paid for by the tenant, but IW is not mentioned. At renewal last year no one knew what the hell was happening with water anyway. But on renewal, I will insert IW aaaagh.

    Anyway, I am a bit worried about giving out the tenant's names to IW. There are conflicting views about this, and Data Protection rules gives me the willies TBH!

    There is absolutely NO help on the IW website about this, or anything to do with landlords.

    I think the only way to go is to say to IW that the property is rented out, mother is in a Nursing Home, here's the name of the NH, but I'm not happy about giving you the tenant's names.

    We are fully compliant with PRTB and Revenue,

    Can't understand why IW don't get the names from PRTB, not from the landlord. At least prtb is a Government thing.

    I cannot understand why this is such a mess. Mum has no hand, act or part in any other utilities in the tenant's house.

    This is causing unnecesary worry. When we need to worry about Mum more than anything.

    But that is just the way it is.

    I am totally baffled by the lack of clarity in relation to landlord/tenant.

    Thanks again.


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    #9
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Is anyone clear on what landord obligations are re Irish Water please?

    It not been decided. So no one knows. No even Irish Water or the Govt. Its pointless to talk to them until this is decided.


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    #10
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Thank you to all who have tried to assist me in this debacle....

    I am totally baffled by the lack of clarity in relation to landlord/tenant...

    As you say its a debacle. None of them have a clue what they are at.


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    #11
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »

    I think the only way to go is to say to IW that the property is rented out, mother is in a Nursing Home, here's the name of the NH, but I'm not happy about giving you the tenant's names.

    I would not give them any details of the nursing home as they would probably send bills and threatening letters there addressed to your mother!


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    #12
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    I would not give them any details of the nursing home as they would probably send bills and threatening letters there addressed to your mother!

    Would any one be actually surprised
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #13
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    I would not give them any details of the nursing home as they would probably send bills and threatening letters there addressed to your mother!

    Yes, on second thoughts I will just do nothing and wait it out.

    I am not happy about giving tenant details to IW at all.

    I heard on newstalk from Ms. Arnett that the Government is bringing in regulations soon to ensure the landlord is responsible in the event of a tenant defaulting. That's what made me sit up and think again about this.

    What a shambles.

    As if we didn't have enough worries, all of us!


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    #14
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Yes, on second thoughts I will just do nothing and wait it out.

    I am not happy about giving tenant details to IW at all.

    I heard on newstalk from Ms. Arnett that the Government is bringing in regulations soon to ensure the landlord is responsible in the event of a tenant defaulting. That's what made me sit up and think again about this.

    What a shambles.

    As if we didn't have enough worries, all of us!

    Don't even listen to this type of Bullcrap talk from gombeens and civil servants. They come out with this stuff because they have failed miserably in their jobs and have to try to bully and scam honest people into paying debts they are not responsible for! There is no way that anyone else will ever be liable for a debt incurred by tenants in a house/property.

    What court would ever tell you to pay your tenants gas or phone or sky television bill? the water bill is exactly the same as every other bill that your tenants pay! If Enda or his lapdogs tried to pull a scam like that they would find themselves in very deep water indeed!


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    #15
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    OP, if the tenants will not register, the landlord can provide their name and address to IW. ODPC confirmed this to be the case. This will discharge any obligation on the landlord.

    I suggest confirming directly with ODPC as you wil hear a lot of nonsense on this forum, especially from the anti IW brigade


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    #16
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    ...I heard on newstalk from Ms. Arnett that the Government is bringing in regulations....

    There was also this....

    http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-deadline-1915157-Feb2015/
    ...Higgins also added that she expects “legislation to be brought in over the course of this month where it’ll be possible to put a charge on property, where it’ll also be possible for landlords to bill tenants and take it out of their deposits” in the event of non-payment....

    If any of this was official it would be on a govt website somewhere.


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    #17
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    garhjw wrote: »
    OP, if the tenants will not register, the landlord can provide their name and address to IW. ODPC confirmed this to be the case. This will discharge any obligation on the landlord.

    I suggest confirming directly with ODPC as you wil hear a lot of nonsense on this forum, especially from the anti IW brigade

    I might just do that, in time. But there is absolutely NO instruction on IW website at ALL giving any guidance to landlords about this.

    That is why I am dubious TBH. If all that is required is for IW to get the tenant's names, then why don't they say that on the website and state that Data Protection have approved this?

    My antenna is up about this, since IW have not said landlords should provide this information to them.

    The tenants actually said that I should not give their names to IW, due to DP so I have a bit of digging to do yet.

    We have no issue with the tenants. The relationship is fine. Business like. We do our bit and they do theirs. Up to this issue, which is a problem for both sides now unfortunately.


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    #18
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    garhjw wrote: »
    ...This will discharge any obligation on the landlord....

    Can you confirm where this is officially stated. Preferably via a link to the website.


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    #19
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    beauf wrote: »
    There was also this....

    http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-deadline-1915157-Feb2015/



    If any of this was official it would be on a govt website somewhere.

    It still might be on the cards though.

    Nothing would surprise me now. I don't think their right hand knows what the left hand is doing, and they are making it up as they go along.

    At least with the LPT we knew from the get go what the situation was with deferrals, charges on the property etc. But then again there was no problem with landlord/tenant issues. Only the owner.

    Sigh, I'm tired of all the flip flopping, and lack of information.

    We just want to do what's right and legal for mother and her tenants. That's all. But no one seems to know what is right and legal!


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    #20
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    It still might be on the cards though.......

    Wait till it is then. They've backtracked so many times so far, I would suggest its best not to do anything until you get clear instructions from official sources.

    The issue is not LL passing on tenants details to IW. The issue is who is liable for tenants water charges and how will it be collected. Passing of details can happen after all that is decided.

    The problem now is they've cried wolf so many times, and scaremongering they have lost all credibility. For me anyway.


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    #21
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    beauf wrote: »
    Can you confirm where this is officially stated. Preferably via a link to the website.

    On the ipad so unable to copy and paste from my email easily but I did in another post earlier this evening.

    If the tenant does not register, the landlord can provide name and address to IW. Registration pack or whatever is sent to the tenant.

    The landlord has then declared they are not living in the property and it is not vacant.


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    #22
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    garhjw wrote: »
    On the ipad so unable to copy and paste from my email easily but I did in another post earlier this evening.

    If the tenant does not register, the landlord can provide name and address to IW. Registration pack or whatever is sent to the tenant.

    The landlord has then declared they are not living in the property and it is not vacant.

    Your posts referred to data protection

    Nothing from the government on legislation
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #23
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    I might just do that, in time. But there is absolutely NO instruction on IW website at ALL giving any guidance to landlords about this.
    That is why I am dubious TBH. If all that is required is for IW to get the tenant's names, then why don't they say that on the website and state that Data Protection have approved this?
    There is no instruction on the site and they will give no direct instruction because they know that the tenants bill is none of your business or concern so they are unable to discuss it with you!

    They won't state this because they need to create a climate of fear amongst honest people in the hope that landlords will pay for tenants who do not.

    My antenna is up about this, since IW have not said landlords should provide this information to them.

    The tenants actually said that I should not give their names to IW, due to DP so I have a bit of digging to do yet.

    We have no issue with the tenants. The relationship is fine. Business like. We do our bit and they do theirs. Up to this issue, which is a problem for both sides now unfortunately.
    Whether you give the tenants details or not you can not be liable for someone elses utility bill or I'll be sending on my electricity gas and broadband bills as well as my water bill for you to pay:D


    Just to add that I believe in Water rates/tax/charges but not the way these eejits are going about it! There was another civil servant on the news at nine not saying anything but his lips were moving very fast, he hinted at legislation that might maybe sometime be considered to allow or provide for landlords to withhold money from deposits if tenants don't pay.(but it would currently be illegal for a LL to do that).

    They basically have no powers to force any person to pay and will very likely not be granted any real powers except for the same redress through the courts that other utility companies have, anything else would surely go against competition/anti-monopoly laws?


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    #24
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    That is why I am dubious TBH. If all that is required is for IW to get the tenant's names, then why don't they say that on the website and state that Data Protection have approved this?

    Contact the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner. They are very helpful and quick to respond.
    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    The tenants actually said that I should not give their names to IW, due to DP so I have a bit of digging to do yet.

    You don't necessarily need their permission.


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    #25
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    Gatling wrote: »
    Your posts referred to data protection

    Nothing from the government on legislation

    The IW site also states a landlords obligations in terms of declaring if they live in a property, if it's vacant or if it is occupied by someone else.

    As others posted, it's not possible to be held liable for using water you didn't use. There is a lot of scare moon gearing going on by both sides. It's fairly common sense.


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    #26
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Gatling wrote: »
    Your posts referred to data protection

    Nothing from the government on legislation

    Exactly.


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    #27
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    My mother's house is rented out to pay for her care fees.

    The tenants who are brilliant BTW have told me that they will not be registering or paying, and sorry about that. They are there three years and hopefully will be for the foreseeable.

    If the tenants are refusing to register as they are legally required to, and refusing to pay, again as legally required to, how long before they stop paying their rent, that's legally required too!

    Sorry but they don't meet my definition of brilliant tenants and I'd see this as a major red flag


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    #28
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    athtrasna wrote: »
    If the tenants are refusing to register as they are legally required to, and refusing to pay, again as legally required to, how long before they stop paying their rent, that's legally required too!

    Sorry but they don't meet my definition of brilliant tenants and I'd see this as a major red flag

    Bit of a over reaction major red flag for not signing up to Irish water ,
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #29
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Gatling wrote: »
    Bit of a over reaction major red flag for not signing up to Irish water ,

    Failing to comply with a legal obligation in a property that's not their own, speaking as a former landlord (very recently) I now know to be sensitive to things like this!


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    #30
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Failing to comply with a legal obligation ...

    You can't have failed to comply when the legal deadline hasn't expired.


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    #31
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,883 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Failing to comply with a legal obligation in a property that's not their own, speaking as a former landlord (very recently) I now know to be sensitive to things like this!

    The tenants have been there over three years now.

    Rent is paid on the button and the house is always in good condition. I think that is a definition of good tenants.

    Their utilities are their own business. It's just the IW situation is confusing and difficult for them and us.

    The fact that they are not registering is no skin off my nose. Same as it wouldn't be re ESB/SKY ETC.

    The problem I have is trying to find out my mothers obligations in this situation.


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