How cheap could I go EV?

Grudaire

I was wondering how cheaply I could go EV for a 40k commute each way?

I'm used to having a second hand ICE, and am wondering if it would be financially possible to move to an EV, and how much the initial outlay night be for second hand (car, charger etc)

September1

You can get Peugeot Ion in UK for about 8600 euros and UK cars come with charger so you would have to add travel costs to UK and back, registration plates and road tax of 120 euro. I would recommend though to get Irish LEAF and negotiate with owner to include charger - it should cost not much more and is much nicer car.

Grudaire

And would a second hand leaf have enough range to comfortably get me there and back? Or would I need to stop at a charger on the way?

September1

Maybe - it really depends on what kind of journey this 80km is. Do you have charger at work or on the way?

Grudaire

September1 wrote: »

Maybe - it really depends on what kind of journey this 80km is. Do you have charger at work or on the way?

No charger at work would be the issue.

Probably more like a 70k total round trip

September1

Grudaire wrote: »

No charger at work would be the issue.

Probably more like a 70k total round trip

70km should be doable in most conditions as long as you do not travel too fast. In 2011 LEAF you can cover easily longer distances, problem is that heating is not that efficient.

Weakest point of this car is heating, as it uses a lot of power from battery. Especially when you commute back and cannot preheat car from mains.

reboot

September1 wrote: »

70km should be doable in most conditions as long as you do not travel too fast. In 2011 LEAF you can cover easily longer distances, problem is that heating is not that efficient.

Weakest point of this car is heating, as it uses a lot of power from battery. Especially when you commute back and cannot preheat car from mains.

Are we talking of a Heat Pump like the Zoe?

September1

reboot wrote: »

Are we talking of a Heat Pump like the Zoe?

No

Grudaire

September1 wrote: »

70km should be doable in most conditions as long as you do not travel too fast. In 2011 LEAF you can cover easily longer distances, problem is that heating is not that efficient.

Weakest point of this car is heating, as it uses a lot of power from battery. Especially when you commute back and cannot preheat car from mains.

That would work for me. I'll just wear a jumper on the way home :-)

I'll just need to ensure that range doesn't drop too much :-)

September1

Grudaire wrote: »

That would work for me. I'll just wear a jumper on the way home :-)

I'll just need to ensure that range doesn't drop too much :-)

In my 2011 LEAF I can still do 80-90km on very cold days - but who knows what future brings. To be honest I do not see much difference in range since first year.

There are to many variables in calculating range in an electric car.

Wind, surface water, tyres, terrain hills etc, wind, cold, speed, acceleration etc.

See, in such an efficient car, everything makes a difference.

A 2nd hand leaf could have capacity degradation and will reduce range more.

Grudaire

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A 2nd hand leaf could have capacity degradation and will reduce range more.

Are you saying that it's not the route to go?

Grudaire

Grudaire wrote: »

Are you saying that it's not the route to go?

Not at all, but battery degradation if something that needs to be factored in when buying 2nd hand. (for the current generation of electrics) In the likes of the Tesla model S with 85 Kwh battery, it's such a lot of battery that even a 20% loss is not going to be noticeable with a 280 mile range car, so in theory, the model S 85 Kwh battery will last the life of the car.

On a new battery in a Leaf with a more efficient heater I would need to be at a charge point at 100 kms this time of year.

Now say you get a 2011 Leaf and it's lost 20% capacity after 80,000-100,000 Kms then you'll have 80 Kms range in winter. This is an example and not a certainty that a leaf will loose 20% capacity in any length of time/miles.

You need the Leaf spy app and bluetooth dongle to get an accurate indication of the battery condition and make your own decision.

It could be a case where you could fast charge and get away with a lot of degradation. Just don't get addicted to it in summer because heat is a leaf battery killer and top ups are better than charging beyond 80%. When I get to the fast charger in Naas after work I've about 25% charge left and I need only about 60% to guarantee I get home which I usually have 20% left.

September1

September1 wrote: »

In my 2011 LEAF I can still do 80-90km on very cold days - but who knows what future brings. To be honest I do not see much difference in range since first year.

I could probably do 110 kms on my 2015 Leaf with the heat pump, but I would say that would be rolling to the charge point. And it would be at speeds of 80-100 Kph.

It will be very interesting to see if the Chevy Bolt really has 200 miles range, even 150 is a big step up.

Here is an example of a Leaf with the leaf spy data. My 2015 with only 65 miles.



It will be interesting tracking degradation.

SOH means state of health . 100% obviously being perfect.

September1

Grudaire wrote: »

Are you saying that it's not the route to go?

I think he is a bit confused. Anyway fact is that in some years an old LEAF might no longer be able to travel this distances on single charge. This means three options for owner of such car:
1) start charing at work or on the way
2) sell car to someone who is fine with current range
3) replace battery, which may cost price of car at this time

Grudaire

So it looks like a second hand leaf is €11-14k (Similar for a newer Zoe)

... and increased levels of range anziety, it's a hard road to travel.

September1

Grudaire wrote: »

So it looks like a second hand leaf is €11-14k (Similar for a newer Zoe)

... and increased levels of range anziety, it's a hard road to travel.

Renault cars often require extra monthly payment for battery rental, so take it into calculations. What do you mean as hard road?

Grudaire

September1 wrote: »

Renault cars often require extra monthly payment for battery rental, so take it into calculations. What do you mean as hard road?

Just questioning the economics of a second hand EV, especially if the battery degrades at a steady rate.

I had expected/hoped that the price would be more around €8k (based on running a regular ICE for a few years plus a small premium)

September1

Grudaire wrote: »

Just questioning the economics of a second hand EV, especially if the battery degrades at a steady rate.

I had expected/hoped that the price would be more around €8k (based on running a regular ICE for a few years plus a small premium)

I'm silly and took it literally, imagining some hard terrain you have to travel.:D

I think if you consider economics of travelling from A to B and disregard everything else then neither old or new EV makes financial sense. More or less what you safe on fule, oil and tax you will lose in depreciation.

Coming back to battery degradtion, there is a model created at LEAF forum in US which is pretty good in predicting it - it contains data for Dublin and Shannon as degradation is mostly weather influenced. I think for your needs you have to calculate selling car at year 10 or 11. However you can play with data yourself.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/48149991/Leaf%20Battery%20Degradation%20Model%20Version%20100.ods

I can not emphasize this enough, the most damaging thing you can do to the battery is to fast charge to the point that the battery gets hot (beyond 30 degrees C) Worse again is charging a hot battery beyond 80%.

Leaving the battery at a high state of charge for a long time more than a few days is not good.

The battery has a huge thermal mass that takes a long time to cool in summer, during winter I notice between 25% and 75% the battery can heat from 7 Deg C to 17 degrees and this is in the cold of the last few weeks. And in Summer this can go over 30 degrees, from 20 degrees on just a single fast charge.

It was a mistake that Nissan failed to cool the battery. While the effects are a lot less noticeable in Ireland due to the moderate climate it does have an impact on battery longevity especially because people are really not aware of how hot their battery gets with multiple daily fast charging.

The battery temperature meter in the leaf is useless the below table will show just how useless and how it's very easy to think the leaf battery is perfectly comfortable. When I fast charged the other day the 5th battery temp bar lit meaning a range between -3 and 27 degrees C !

I certainly would not fast charge beyond the 6th battery temp bar or charge beyond 80% from beyond the 6th battery bar.

12 56 (133) none
11 52 (126) 59 (138)
10 49 (120) 56 (133)
9 47 (117) 52 (126)
8 36 (97) 49 (120)
7 23 (73) 47 (117)
6 10 (50) 38 (100)
5 -3 (27) 27 (81)
4 -5 (23) 15 (59)
3 -8 (18) 4 (39)
2 -12 (10) 2 (36)
1 -15 (5) -2 (28)
0 none -5 (23)

Markcheese

Grudaire wrote: »

That would work for me. I'll just wear a jumper on the way home :-)

I'll just need to ensure that range doesn't drop too much :-)

It's the window misting up that's the problem

Here's a much clearer diagram of the Leaf battery bars and the temperature range each bar represents.

September1

September1 wrote: »

Coming back to battery degradtion, there is a model created at LEAF forum in US which is pretty good in predicting it - it contains data for Dublin and Shannon as degradation is mostly weather influenced. I think for your needs you have to calculate selling car at year 10 or 11. However you can play with data yourself.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/48149991/Leaf%20Battery%20Degradation%20Model%20Version%20100.ods

For the low mileage driver, 5-7 K miles a year then calender life will dictate degradation. But capacity loss might not matter to someone who drives such low mileage if they drive an average of 30 miles a day or less. Even with a 30% capacity loss the leaf is useful for someone who drives 20-30 miles a day.

For someone who drives 15-20K miles a year then cycling, fast charging and heat due to fast charging will have much more of an impact than calender life.

The battery model can't predict how someone's fast charging habits and how hot they will get the battery, or how high a state of charge they will continue to charge that hot battery.

If someone wants to keep the Leaf for 10+ years then you need to take care of the battery because Nissan Ireland will not allow you to replace the battery and that comes from Nissan Ireland directly. And it doesn't look likely this decision will be reversed any time soon.

The only hope is to transport the Leaf to the U.K or have someone in Ireland competent enough to do the job.

it's a pity there is no data on the Renault Zoe battery, the BMW I3, VW E-Golf etc because they all have different batteries. Fast charging may not matter to them at all and the cycle life may be higher, no way of knowing yet.

Grudaire

So I'm having trouble figuring out the true 'cost' of EV. (Keep in mind I plan on travelling late 2016 so would sell on an EV at that stage if possible.

I think the only two options are Leaf and Zoe.. A new car would remove the range anziety.. so bearing that in mind:

How much does a new EV cost?
And how much might a second hand EV be worth in late 2016?

(I don't understand why second hand Leafs appear to be asking for more than the price of a basic new leaf)

(Obviously the actual future value of any car is unknown - but humour me )

September1

Grudaire wrote: »

So I'm having trouble figuring out the true 'cost' of EV. (Keep in mind I plan on travelling late 2016 so would sell on an EV at that stage if possible.

I think the only two options are Leaf and Zoe.. A new car would remove the range anziety.. so bearing that in mind:

How much does a new EV cost?
And how much might a second hand EV be worth in late 2016?

(I don't understand why second hand Leafs appear to be asking for more than the price of a basic new leaf)

(Obviously the actual future value of any car is unknown - but humour me )

New one costs between 21 and 28 and I see no single 2014 one that would be over 28k - assume that every year it will lose 20% of value.

Anyway you would be better buying 2011 one as they already have most depreciation behind them.

Grudaire

Grudaire wrote: »

So I'm having trouble figuring out the true 'cost' of EV. (Keep in mind I plan on travelling late 2016 so would sell on an EV at that stage if possible.

The true cost of running any car is the loan + interest + depreciation + maintenance + fuel + motor tax.

The EV will cost a hell of a lot less to fuel especially on night tariff electricity.

The EV will cost a lot less to maintain over it's life, only requiring inspections and diagnostics for about 90 Euro's once a year or every 15,000 Kms. Fluid changes will apply at some point , coolant and brake fluid.

Grudaire wrote: »

I think the only two options are Leaf and Zoe.. A new car would remove the range anziety.. so bearing that in mind:

How would a new car remove range anxiety ? you only drive an average 40 kms per day ? 2nd hand Gen I leaf with all it's battery capacity bars on the dash display (12 bars) as in the image below would suit you many years.



Just don't get too fond of the fast charger, don't charge more than once on a warm summer day (20+ degrees C ) and it should last you a very long time. But if you need to then do just don't make a habit out of it.

Grudaire wrote: »

How much does a new EV cost?
And how much might a second hand EV be worth in late 2016?

Well, look at the prices now on carzone and that should give you an idea of what to expect.

As to the cost, the Zoe is about 20K new but you have to rent the battery.

The Leaf starts at 21,500 but this does not include the fast charge port which is essential, I think it costs about 500 Euro's extra.

The Mid spec Leaf costs about 25,500 and the top spec 27,500.

Grudaire wrote: »

(I don't understand why second hand Leafs appear to be asking for more than the price of a basic new leaf)

The Gen I leafs were highly equipped and the Gen 1.5 from 2013+ have now 3 trim levels to reduce costs by omitting equipment but it lets the buyer decide if they want the gadgets or not. This is why the cost of 2nd hand leafs seems high, because the cost reflects the level of equipment. And they hold their value pretty much better than all cars out there with the exception of the usual German cars.

Grudaire wrote: »

(Obviously the actual future value of any car is unknown - but humour me )

This is why I went on PCP and because I don't want to own the Leaf at the end of my contract because the New Leaf II with a lot more range and other electrics will be available by the end of 2017 early 2018. I don't expect Leaf II to be available in Ireland before Q1 2018.

With PCP the Guaranteed future value (GFV) is set that in 3 years I get a GFV of 11,500 with 75,000 Kms but I don't think they would be too worried about an extra 5,000 If I was getting a new one.

The GFV is the balloon I have the option to pay if I want to own the car or not pay the 11,500 and put it towards the repayments on the new one. I should only have to pay a minimum deposit going forward but the GFV is usually calculated a bit more to give you something going forward provided the car is in good condition and you don't go way over your mileage allowance or this will be deducted from the GFV.

In total I have about 225 PM to put towards the 450 PM repayments, so 225 PM for a new car isn't bad IMO, OK I won't own it at the end but why would I want to own a depreciating asset for the sake of 225 PM ?

I usually wouldn't buy new because I do a decent amount of mileage and a 3-4 year old Leaf wouldn't suit my driving habits with a reduction in battery capacity. In a Tesla Model S with 280 miles range battery degradation wouldn't be much of an issue because the battery is so big in the first place it could easily have more range after 300,000 miles than a leaf/zoe/I3/E-Golf wtc with a brand new battery !!!

So unless the life of the small batteries like that in the Leaf/zoe/I3 etc improve I will probably continue to buy new, having said that there is a possibility the batteries in the Leaf/I3/Zoe/E-Golf etc could last a lot longer, they just haven't been around long enough to know.

But is it really that bad having a new car if it really only costs me about 225 PM ? 225 after the savings over the Prius, a relatively low maintenance 60 mpg car ?

Anyone who gets less than 60 average mpg per (tank) would obviously have more to put towards a new ev.

But anyway your 40 Km daily average mileage is more than suitable for a 2011 Leaf even with 50K miles.

Grudaire

Thanks for the reply Mad Lad, I'll read through it fully later when I'm home.

Just to clarify it's 40km each way, so 75km commute per day total..

reboot

Grudaire wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Mad Lad, I'll read through it fully later when I'm home.

Just to clarify it's 40km each way, so 75km commute per day total..

People who have bought Leaf would like you to do the same.Its understandable, but.

Grudaire

Grudaire wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Mad Lad, I'll read through it fully later when I'm home.

Just to clarify it's 40km each way, so 75km commute per day total..

Yeah a 2nd hand Leaf with 20% capacity loss should meet this daily commute no problem. But always try and get one with as much capacity as possible. Bring the leaf spy app and bluetooth dongle, this will give you a pretty good idea of the condition of the battery.

perhaps you have a fast charger on route that you can use to top up. In winter it won't heat up much but fast charging isn't so fast in winter I've noticed it can take twice as long.

reboot

reboot wrote: »

People who have bought Leaf would like you to do the same.Its understandable, but.

Only because Grudaire was looking for a 2nd hand EV so the leaf is the only one available 2nd hand especially at a low price.

Grudaire

Thanks for that Mad_Lad, any idea/thoughts on the resale value of a Leaf in 1.5 years time (Late 2016)

Also would there be a risk of further degrading of the battery over this time?

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

Only because Grudaire was looking for a 2nd hand EV so the leaf is the only one available 2nd hand especially at a low price.

People have bought demo Zoe models at a knock down price.

Grudaire

reboot wrote: »

People have bought demo Zoe models at a knock down price.

I'm willing to go any direction because I would really like to go EV.

That said I'm not even sure how to go about swinging a demo model! If you have any contacts let me know

reboot

reboot wrote: »

People have bought demo Zoe models at a knock down price.

Yes but you still have to lease the battery which over 3 years makes the cost the same. So the purchase price may be cheaper but the over all cost is the same.

leasing the battery I have no problem with but I'd rather lease the whole car.

After 7-10 years if you need a new battery it is not guaranteed that Renault will install a new one, they may only repair it, a chance I wouldn't be willing to take.

If you lease the battery over 7-10 years and do 20-25 K Kms per year or about 15K miles then the lease will cost you more than buying the battery.