Can a Slavic surname have an Irish language spelling?

raspberrypie

So, short and sweet, a friend of mine is Belarusian, he also has Irish citizenship. He's married to an British woman of Irish ancestry who also has Irish citizenship, they live in Ireland. They have a double barreled name, can his Belarusian name have an Irish spelling? Just curious, we were discussing family names the other night, they also it seems have what are call patrynomic names before their final surname if you see what I mean. Anyway, if English language surnames can change in Irish, and vice versa, can other foreign surnames? Thanks.

ezra_pound

raspberrypie wrote: »

So, short and sweet, a friend of mine is Belarusian, he also has Irish citizenship. He's married to an British woman of Irish ancestry who also has Irish citizenship, they live in Ireland. They have a double barreled name, can his Belarusian name have an Irish spelling? Just curious, we were discussing family names the other night, they also it seems have what are call patrynomic names before their final surname if you see what I mean. Anyway, if English language surnames can change in Irish, and vice versa, can other foreign surnames? Thanks.

In the Gaeltacht they have patronymic names also so that's no problem, the name is literally put in the genetive to mark the patronymic. E.g. micí mhicí ó Cleirigh

I suppose in terms of the surname it all depends on the particular name in question.

raspberrypie

ezra_pound wrote: »

In the Gaeltacht they have patronymic names also so that's no problem, the name is literally put in the genetive to mark the patronymic. E.g. micí mhicí ó Cleirigh

I suppose in terms of the surname it all depends on the particular name in question.

Thanks for that. But what do you mean by it depends on the particular name in question? You mean some could have an Irish language version and some may not, why would that be?

ezra_pound

raspberrypie wrote: »

Thanks for that. But what do you mean by it depends on the particular name in question? You mean some could have an Irish language version and some may not, why would that be?

Well I mean a slavic surname based around Mikhail would be easier than say one based around Dimitri, as there is currently no Irish for the name dimitri, or say ilya. Apart from that it's easy enough.


In the patronymic surname:
Mac for son of
Ó for grandson etc.

The main difference with the name order is that the patronymic name in Irish would go before the surname.

I think in Irish Gaeltacht areas if the patronymic system is used then usually the surname isn't but it would go back several generations.

So you'd end up with Paul son of John son of pat without necessarily using a surname.

It would be pól sheáin phait I think.

So for example Mikhail mikhailovich illych would be something like micheál ilya ó mhicheáil - again ilya should be in the genetive but what's the generive for ilya in Irish?

raspberrypie

ezra_pound wrote: »

Well I mean a slavic surname based around Mikhail would be easier than say one based around Dimitri, as there is currently no Irish for the name dimitri, or say ilya. Apart from that it's easy enough.


In the patronymic surname:
Mac for son of
Ó for grandson etc.

The main difference with the name order is that the patronymic name in Irish would go before the surname.

I think in Irish Gaeltacht areas if the patronymic system is used then usually the surname isn't but it would go back several generations.

So you'd end up with Paul son of John son of pat without necessarily using a surname.

It would be pól sheáin phait I think.

So for example Mikhail mikhailovich illych would be something like micheál ilya ó mhicheáil - again ilya should be in the genetive but what's the generive for ilya in Irish?

Not sure I understand what you've just said but thanks anyway. No, I can categorically say I don't understand it, lol. I do know that in Belarus the patronymic comes before the surname. I am guessing their Slavic surname doesn't translate as even within Belarus it is very uncommon and doesn't follow the general convention in Belarus and Russia and Ukraine etc. The surname doesn't change gender at all, very unusual for that part of the Slavic world.

ezra_pound

raspberrypie wrote: »

Not sure I understand what you've just said but thanks anyway. No, I can categorically say I don't understand it, lol. I do know that in Belarus the patronymic comes before the surname. I am guessing their Slavic surname doesn't translate as even within Belarus it is very uncommon and doesn't follow the general convention in Belarus and Russia and Ukraine etc. The surname doesn't change gender at all, very unusual for that part of the Slavic world.

OK so if the surname doesn't change gender then it's presumably not a patronymical surname which makes it harder because you can't just add a Mac or an o etc before it.
I always thought that slavic patronymic name came last but if not then the name order in Irish would be the same.

Name patronymic surname

Just remember to put the patronymic in genetive (i think this is also done in slavic languages).

What's the surname out of interest?

raspberrypie

ezra_pound wrote: »

OK so if the surname doesn't change gender then it's presumably not a patronymical surname which makes it harder because you can't just add a Mac or an o etc before it.
I always thought that slavic patronymic name came last but if not then the name order in Irish would be the same.

Name patronymic surname

Just remember to put the patronymic in genetive (i think this is also done in slavic languages).

What's the surname out of interest?

Thanks. Couldn't really say it publicly without their permission. I know that he has a patronymic, a very standard Russian/Belarusian/Ukrainian one, Pavlovich (for example) but they don't use that in their actual surname. Their double barreled surname is the Belarusian surname and the Irish sounding surname. Thanks anyway.

gaiscioch

raspberrypie wrote: »

can his Belarusian name have an Irish spelling? ... Anyway, if English language surnames can change in Irish, and vice versa, can other foreign surnames? Thanks.

I don't see why not. Whether he translates his surname, uses a patronymic or just invents an Irish surname is his choice.

Translation: Novik, for instance, is a common Belarusian surname. It means "new one" and was commonly given to new arrivals. An Irish prefix could be 'Gall' (foreigner) and many Irish surnames have that- Ó Dúill (formerly Ó Dubhghaill, descendant of the dark-haired foreigner), Ó Fionnghaill (descendant of the fair-haired foreigner), etc.

Patronymic: If his father was, say, Ivan (John in English) you could have something like "Mac Eoin" or Mac Seáin, both of which are Irish surnames anyway (Eoin derives from Latin Johannes, while Seán derives from the later Norman-French male name Jean brought to Ireland in the 12th century)

If he is going to change his name into Irish the sooner he does so the better as this is a very small society and once people know you by one name it takes a while for them to accept the other name. Mac Iomaire, Ó Snodaigh and Ó Tuairisc are three well-known Irish families who created new surnames for themselves in Irish from very different non-Irish surnames, and they would all be commonly known by their Irish surnames now.

PS: He could also use his wife's surname in Irish as his own, as the feminist Francis Sheehy Skeffington sort of did (his wife was Hannah Sheehy).

raspberrypie

gaiscioch wrote: »

I don't see why not. Whether he translates his surname, uses a patronymic or just invents an Irish surname is his choice.

Translation: Novik, for instance, is a common Belarusian surname. It means surnamedb.com/Surname/Novik]"new one" and was commonly given to new arrivals. An Irish prefix could be 'Gall' (foreigner) and many Irish surnames have that- Ó Dúill (formerly Ó Dubhghaill, descendant of the dark-haired foreigner), Ó Fionnghaill (descendant of the fair-haired foreigner), etc.

Patronymic: If his father was, say, Ivan (John in English) you could have something like "Mac Eoin" or Mac Seáin, both of which are Irish surnames anyway (Eoin derives from Latin Johannes, while Seán derives from the later Norman-French male name Jean brought to Ireland in the 12th century)

If he is going to change his name into Irish the sooner he does so the better as this is a very small society and once people know you by one name it takes a while for them to accept the other name. Mac Iomaire, Ó Snodaigh and Ó Tuairisc are three well-known Irish families who created new surnames for themselves in Irish from very different non-Irish surnames, and they would all be commonly known by their Irish surnames now.

PS: He could also use his wife's surname in Irish as his own, as the feminist Francis Sheehy Skeffington sort of did (his wife was Hannah Sheehy).

Huh, could they officially do that, on their passports for example? I know in Ireland we can choose to have our name shown in English or Irish, most likely 99% have it in English but the option is there. So they could "create" an Irish surname based on his Belarusian one and the authorities would have to accept it because in the Irish language you can do that, do I understand correctly? Thanks.

dubhthach

gaiscioch wrote: »

An Irish prefix could be 'Gall' (foreigner) and many Irish surnames have that- Ó Dúill (formerly Ó Dubhghaill, descendant of the dark-haired foreigner), Ó Fionnghaill (descendant of the fair-haired foreigner), etc.

Derailing the thread (so apologies) but I think that's too literal a translation for Ó Dubhghaill in reality it probably means "descendant of man called Dubhghall", after all this survives as the personal name Dougal in english. It's akin to way Lochlann was borrowed into Irish as a personal name (Lachlann in english).

mar shampla:

U914.3

Niall son of Aed made an expedition into Dál Araidi in the month of June. Loingsech grandson of Lethlabar, king of Dál Araidi, came upon him at Fregabal and was defeated, and left behind on his retreat Flathruae grandson of Lethlabar, his kinsman. Aed son of Eochucán, king of the Province, and Loingsech, king of Dál Araidi, met them again at Carn Éirenn and were defeated. Cerrán son of Colman, chief of Cenél Maelchi, and the son of Allacán son of Laíchthechán, and others, were left behind. Aed, however, returning from the flight with a very few, and fiercely resisting during the flight, wiped out some of Niall's soldiers. His son Dubgall was wounded and escaped.

U925.1

Dubgall son of Aed, king of Ulaid, was killed by his own people.

U980.5

Dubgall son of Donnchad, heir designate of Ailech, was killed by his own kinsman, i.e. Muiredach son of Flann. Muiredach son of Flann was beheaded by his own sept before a full month had passed.

U994.2

The son of Dubgall son of Donnchad, i.e. Aed, heir designate of Ailech, was killed.

U1054.3

Dubgall ua hAedacáin, king of Uí Nialláin, was killed by ua Flaithéin.

U1096.4

The son of Dubgall ua Maelchothaid was killed by ua Inneirghe.

davwain

raspberrypie wrote: »

Not sure I understand what you've just said but thanks anyway. No, I can categorically say I don't understand it, lol. I do know that in Belarus the patronymic comes before the surname. I am guessing their Slavic surname doesn't translate as even within Belarus it is very uncommon and doesn't follow the general convention in Belarus and Russia and Ukraine etc. The surname doesn't change gender at all, very unusual for that part of the Slavic world.

Some East Slavic surnames have a feminine suffix e.g. while a man may have a surname that ends with "-sky", the suffix after the end of the surname of a woman with the same last name will be "-ska" (in Ukrainian) or "-skaya" (in Russian).