PEGIDA protests in Germany

ChicagoIrish

What do yee think of the PEGIDA protests in Germany? Personally, I sympathise with them as I believe all cultures deserve to be preserved (INCLUDING the cultures PEGIDA is protesting against, but in their own countries) and think that much of Europe (including France, Sweden, Germany and England) are being quite reckless with their immigration policies. Also, letting in millions of poor immigrants does really no good, especially if they simply take benefits. And even if they get proper jobs and don't live off the dole, then they're taking jobs from the native population, making everyone worse off in the process.

wasper

Immigration is the sole right of the Irish. Hello Chicago.

Boskowski

Pegida are knuckle draggers of the highest order. Dresden, saxony has no immigrant population to speak of. Their 'leader' or spokesman or whatever had to step down since cos he was caught on Facebook calling immigrants scum and vermin.
Be careful who you sympathise with. We can preserve culture and identity without redneck like racism, hatred and bigotry.

ChicagoIrish

wasper wrote: »

Immigration is the sole right of the Irish. Hello Chicago.

just because we have a history of emigration doesn't mean that it is hypocritical to stop people from immigrating to our country. if they didn't want us emigrating, they should have sent the boats back. anyway, immigration does no good to a country.

oscarBravo

ChicagoIrish wrote: »

just because we have a history of emigration doesn't mean that it is hypocritical to stop people from immigrating to our country.

On the contrary, it's practically an exemplar of hypocrisy.

ChicagoIrish

Boskowski wrote: »

Pegida are knuckle draggers of the highest order. Dresden, saxony has no immigrant population to speak of. Their 'leader' or spokesman or whatever had to step down since cos he was caught on Facebook calling immigrants scum and vermin.
Be careful who you sympathise with. We can preserve culture and identity without redneck like racism, hatred and bigotry.

radicalism is a result of the needs of the people going unanswered for too long. just look at sweden. a center-right party called Sweden Democrats (which is called a racist nazi far right party by the media) got 10% of the vote. all the other parties would be considered left-wing to full blown communism. now, every other party in parliament got so scared of this outcome, that they formed a coalition that essentially forms one megaparty. so, now that they have a 90% majority, those racist evil (center-right) nazis shouldn't be able to get their way, right? not so. in the next election (about 8 years, if i remember correctly) everyone who's mad that their party became part of the mega-coalition will vote Sweden Democrats. Everyone who sees there's a clear effort to destroy the Sweden Democrat's power will vote for them. And then people will become more and more radical. Before you know it, the 4th Reich has begun in Sweden, the multicultural tolerant progressive society free of hate. :^)

oscarBravo

ChicagoIrish wrote: »

radicalism is a result of the needs of the people going unanswered for too long. just look at sweden. a center-right party called Sweden Democrats (which is called a racist nazi far right party by the media) got 10% of the vote.

How do you make out that Sverigedemokraterna are centre-right? Where, precisely, are you placing the centre?

all the other parties would be considered left-wing to full blown communism.

Well, that answers my previous question: if you consider Kristdemokraterna left wing, your "centre" is just to the left of FPÖ.

now, every other party in parliament got so scared of this outcome, that they formed a coalition that essentially forms one megaparty.

Eh, no. The (minority) ruling coalition in Sweden consists of SAP and the Greens. The opposition consists of the other five parties.

so, now that they have a 90% majority...

They don't.

...those racist evil (center-right) nazis shouldn't be able to get their way, right? not so. in the next election (about 8 years, if i remember correctly)...

Three, actually, but why let even one fact intrude on your tirade?

...everyone who's mad that their party became part of the mega-coalition will vote Sweden Democrats.

Everyone? Hah. We'll see.

Everyone who sees there's a clear effort to destroy the Sweden Democrat's power will vote for them. And then people will become more and more radical. Before you know it, the 4th Reich has begun in Sweden, the multicultural tolerant progressive society free of hate. :^)

Or you could be wrong. Given the near-total absence of facts about the present in your post, I'll take your predictions for the future with the requisite seasoning.

S.O

Im going to be honest, if I was born and living in Germany Id be marching with PEGIDA, I sympathise and see where they are coming from .

crockholm

oscarBravo wrote: »

How do you make out that Sverigedemokraterna are centre-right? Where, precisely, are you placing the centre? Well, that answers my previous question: if you consider Kristdemokraterna left wing, your "centre" is just to the left of FPÖ. Eh, no. The (minority) ruling coalition in Sweden consists of SAP and the Greens. The opposition consists of the other five parties. They don't. Three, actually, but why let even one fact intrude on your tirade? Everyone? Hah. We'll see. Or you could be wrong. Given the near-total absence of facts about the present in your post, I'll take your predictions for the future with the requisite seasoning.

1. SD economic policies do not belong on the right,more of a whiff of populist left tbh.
2.KD are nowhere as right-wing as you are suggesting.The were the green party Before the green party existed.
3.Even though SAP is fitting,they prefer S;) They and the greens,MP,form a minority govt. with 39.5% of the riksdag seats, the opposition breaks down to 4-1-1

4.It kind of does,a bit.When they got together to agree not to oppose the ruling party/coalition budget,it was a de facto mash up of all parties minus one.

5.true,3 years till next election,maybe the poster got the 8 year figure from the agreement mentioned above which is set to last 8 years.

6. SD will most likely increase their seats in the Riksdag after the next election,after Löfvens bluff to call for new elections in may,pollsters crunched the numbers and found that SD would likely take between 15-17% of the vote,last time they tried to calculate the SD vote(Before the election)they predicted 10% and the party got just shy of 13%. I would still expect them to be the 3rd biggest party-but a good deal closer to the red and blue dogs in %

Cisco100

I think the issue they have is Islam and not immigration.

Thomas_.

ChicagoIrish wrote: »

just because we have a history of emigration doesn't mean that it is hypocritical to stop people from immigrating to our country. if they didn't want us emigrating, they should have sent the boats back. anyway, immigration does no good to a country.

When you grow old and become in need of care you´ll see what´s good or bad if there is a shortage of nurses to care for you. Just one example regarding what immigration does good to a country where the natives don´t like to take up the jobs the immigrants take with gratitude.

MRnotlob606

The issue is more about integration I think. Muslims and Christians peacefully co-exist with each other in Albania, However Albania is ranked as one of the least religious countries in the world. The Muslims in Albania are very much European Muslims with European values.
A lot of Muslim Immigrants to Europe are quite fervent in their espousal of their religious belief, Most believe religious law is higher than established civil law.Their values on marriage, contraception,justice, abortion and the law are quite different than those of Europeans.

Pandering to Islamic preferences isn't going to work.

Oldenboard

PEGIDA is in the east German city of Dresden, where there are very few immigrants. Wealthy cities in west Germany, like Stuttgart and Karlsruhe have the highest share of foreign born residents and I haven't heard of any protests against immigrants there.

Which begs the question if PEGIDA is really about immigration or just about general fears of not being able to compete in a globalised world?

Oldenboard

Oldenboard wrote: »

Which begs the question if PEGIDA is really about immigration or just about general fears of not being able to compete in a globalised world?

or are they just a bit racist.

Germany is teetering on full employment and although the economy is slowing down, that's nothing to do with immigration at all. Quite the opposite, the German economy would be doing far worse, were it not for young immigrants lowering the age profile of the ageing native workers.

Racism is rarely a well-thought policy. I wouldn't credit these guys with the suggestion they've been doing some deep thinking about globalisation or the like.

Manach

It will be interesting to see how how such protests evolve and whether it will bring a long term impact to the existing German parties or evolve into something akin to the French National Front as a separate entity.

donaghs

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

or are they just a bit racist.

Germany is teetering on full employment and although the economy is slowing down, that's nothing to do with immigration at all. Quite the opposite, the German economy would be doing far worse, were it not for young immigrants lowering the age profile of the ageing native workers.

Racism is rarely a well-thought policy. I wouldn't credit these guys with the suggestion they've been doing some deep thinking about globalisation or the like.

The protesters seemed to be a very mixed bag of people with varying agendas - from the typical right-wing racists (neo-nazis etc) to elderly people concerned about how immigration is changing Germany - or how they perceive it.

Two points missed in all of this. (1)Its not just immigration which is of concern, but concerns that immigration is bringing an Islamic way of life to Germany.
(2) Its true that places in the East like Dresden have very little in the way of religious and ethnic diversity compared with the big cities in Western Germany and Berlin. But this misses the point that East Germany was behind the Iron Curtain and did not have the same levels of Immigration, "Gastarbeiter", etc. Or even opportunities for East Germans to travel to far flung countries and experience other cultures. And suddenly, with German Unification, there has been something of a shock to their system. The West had time to get used to the fact that Turkish people (mostly from conservative rural areas of Turkey) made up the largest proportion of guest workers, and that they were here to stay.

oscarBravo wrote: »

On the contrary, it's practically an exemplar of hypocrisy.

I'm not opposed to immigration. But its not hypocritical to oppose immigration just because your country has a history of immigration. Unless you have access to a time machine.

end of the road

ChicagoIrish wrote: »

What do yee think of the PEGIDA protests in Germany? Personally, I sympathise with them as I believe all cultures deserve to be preserved (INCLUDING the cultures PEGIDA is protesting against, but in their own countries) and think that much of Europe (including France, Sweden, Germany and England) are being quite reckless with their immigration policies. Also, letting in millions of poor immigrants does really no good, especially if they simply take benefits. And even if they get proper jobs and don't live off the dole, then they're taking jobs from the native population, making everyone worse off in the process.

they aren't "taking" jobs from the native population. the native population aren't more "entitled" to a job then anyone else. at the end of the day if the immigrant is the best candidate for the job they wil get it and the native will have to put up with it, they weren't good enough this time

ChicagoIrish wrote: »

just because we have a history of emigration doesn't mean that it is hypocritical to stop people from immigrating to our country.

yes, yes it is . specially if the one whining about immigration will make excuses for and be okay with the actions of the illegal irish in america and other places.

ChicagoIrish wrote: »

immigration does no good to a country.

grand so. america and others should deport all the irish back home

BoJack Horseman

end of the road wrote: »

if the immigrant is the best candidate for the job they wil get it and the native will have to put up with it, they weren't good enough this time

Is it not fair to accept that at the lower end of the labour market, price & not skillset can often determine job success.

Wage competitiveness between candidates in the low-skilled sector can be very different between native & immigrant.

end of the road

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Is it not fair to accept that at the lower end of the labour market, price & not skillset can often determine job success.

Wage competitiveness between candidates in the low-skilled sector can be very different between native & immigrant.

yes price will have a major part to play

gallag

This is why I made a thread a while ago about the left becoming the right in regard to employment rights, end of the road, do you not realise that the end goal of what you are arguing for would be all working class house sharing with multiple families and thousands competing for each zero hour contract on minimum wage, the only people who benefit from the free movement of people are the fat cats who say "if you don't like it there are plenty of others can do your job"

BlitzKrieg

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Is it not fair to accept that at the lower end of the labour market, price & not skillset can often determine job success.

Wage competitiveness between candidates in the low-skilled sector can be very different between native & immigrant.

but does that point the problem at the company practices and not the immigrant?

If minimum wage and workers rights were actually enforced and protected and not allowed to be side stepped or ignored by companies then wage competitiveness would actually be competitive and not exploitation.

end of the road

gallag wrote: »

This is why I made a thread a while ago about the left becoming the right in regard to employment rights, end of the road, do you not realise that the end goal of what you are arguing for would be all working class house sharing with multiple families and thousands competing for each zero hour contract on minimum wage, the only people who benefit from the free movement of people are the fat cats who say "if you don't like it there are plenty of others can do your job"

which is why you need a good union, and if the employer sacks you for standing up, put him out of business

gallag

end of the road wrote: »

which is why you need a good union, and if the employer sacks you for standing up, put him out of business

How are unions funded?