M & E Engineer = Electrician?

paddy0090

Hi, my ham is having her house rebuilt and I'm trying to get my head around the regs and assocaited cost.

The Architect has told us that due to the new regs we need the services of the following:

• Design/Assigned Certifier
• Structural Engineer
• Project Supervisor Design Process
• Mechanical & Electrical Engineer

Typically as I see from asking around that the first 3 are offered(The assigned part more than design) by most Civil Engineering consultants. It's a good bit more difficult to find M & E consulting engineers and my friend has told me that this isn't a requirement under the regs as the electrician will actually certify the work.



Is this right or is it the case that the engineer is for the Architects benefit?


Also is the design and assigned certifier typically the same person or is it split?


Thanks for any help

sydthebeat

M+E would only be required if there are off standard installations proposed ie fire suppression systems, air conditioning etc.
but in most domestic situations they would not be required.
Good electricians / plumbers should be able to deal with most domestic applications.

DOCARCH

The reason, possibly, for the M&E engineer is that there appears to be a bit of an ongoing issue, in relation to BCAR, on who 'signs off' on the design of the heating/plumbing and electrical installations for domestic projects.

With regard to electrics, I saw a recent ECSSA newsletter stating that the electrician should not sign off on the design of the electrical installation...the design of the electrical installation is the responsibility of the architect or M&E engineer. Architects are not really qualified to design electrical installations...thus the requirement for an M&E engineer.

paddy0090

Thanks to both of you. I'm guessing it's the 2nd answer that suggest why the architect wants one involved. But tbh I don't see a reason for it and given it adds €9k ex VAT to the price will be pushing her to drop it.

sydthebeat

paddy0090 wrote: »

Thanks to both of you. I'm guessing it's the 2nd answer that suggest why the architect wants one involved. But tbh I don't see a reason for it and given it adds €9k ex VAT to the price will be pushing her to drop it.

9k + vat for what???? holy jesus

Drift

The Design and Assigned Certifier Forms of Compliance given in SI9 specifically address compliance with the Second Schedule of the Building Regulations - does the electric design and installation fall outside of the Second Schedule?

paddy0090

sydthebeat wrote: »

9k + vat for what???? holy jesus

Per the quote

1. Design team meetings
2. Design of the Mechanical and Electrical services
3. Tender Drawings/Specifications
4. Site visits/inspections
5. Sign off by chartered engineer/ Ancillary certificate

The services to be supplied aren't all that complicated but it is a big house(300m2)

drift wrote:

The Design and Assigned Certifier Forms of Compliance given in SI9 specifically address compliance with the Second Schedule of the Building Regulations - does the electric design and installation fall outside of the Second Schedule?

Not sure what you mean here. Are you asking does the M & E fall outside the remit of the design/assigned certifier? If so then my understanding is yes, the installer "designs" and certifies his/her work.

sydthebeat

So is your assigned certifier saying the m+e ancillary certificate has to be signed off by an m+e chartered engineer? ?

Something electricians have been doing for years with no issue.

Your spending over 10k on absolutely nothing.

paddy0090

sydthebeat wrote: »

So is your assigned certifier saying the m+e ancillary certificate has to be signed off by an m+e chartered engineer? ?

Something electricians have been doing for years with no issue.

Your spending over 10k on absolutely nothing.

Well it's the Architect who's not assigned certifier but is design certifier if that makes sense. Would/should that change anything?

And yeah it does appear as if it's for nothing.

DOCARCH

sydthebeat wrote: »

Something electricians have been doing for years with no issue.

The electrician will not sign off on the design of the electrical installation....that's the nub of the problem.

However...E9K + VAT sounds a bit OTT for a domestic job.

paddy0090

DOCARCH wrote: »

The electrician will not sign off on the design of the electrical installation....that's the nub of the problem.

However...E9K + VAT sounds a bit OTT for a domestic job.

.....So I may need an M & E engineer for the design stage of the project? Would this be cheaper/taken care of(sub contracted) if the strucutral engineer was acting as the design certifier?

BryanF

paddy0090 wrote: »

.....So I may need an M & E engineer for the design stage of the project? Would this be cheaper/taken care of(sub contracted) if the strucutral engineer was acting as the design certifier?

ive heard from 2 residential plumbing/electrical contractors that they are beginning to be asked to provide design layouts/calcs/certs for their M&E installations - their generally refusing to provide these ancillary certs in the format the assigned certifer requires.

sydthebeat

DOCARCH wrote: »

The electrician will not sign off on the design of the electrical installation....that's the nub of the problem.

However...E9K + VAT sounds a bit OTT for a domestic job.

Will they not?
Or is it the assigned / design certifier that won't accept their design?

Surely the final reci cert is testimony to both design and installation.

This sounds like a ridiculous situation for a domestic level job.
If it involved some high level m+e installations them fine, but what will they be designing? If there's hrv, the manufacture / ssupplier will be the designer. Same with heat pump etc.

Seems like someone wants 9000 euros to design light fittings and socket layout

DOCARCH

sydthebeat wrote: »

Will they not?

No...apparently electricians and plumbers have nothing to do with design.

RECI/ECCSA Certs only cover installation.

I have heard of some assigned certifiers (not architects BTW) insisting that the electrician and plumber have their respective installations signed of by an M&E engineer (with PII), at their own expense on domestic extension projects!

sydthebeat

DOCARCH wrote: »

No...apparently electricians and plumbers have nothing to do with design.

RECI/ECCSA Certs only cover installation.

I have heard of some assigned certifiers (not architects BTW) insisting that the electrician and plumber have their respective installations signed of by an M&E engineer (with PII), at their own expense on domestic extension projects!

are you sure...

from the 'definitions' of

Electrical Safety Supervisory
Criteria Document (Version 2.0)

Electrical works means the design, construction,
inspection, testing, verification and/or
certification of electrical installations;

see page 13 here

seems quite black and white to me

DOCARCH

sydthebeat wrote: »

see page 13 here

seems quite black and white to me

Nice find! But...it would appear electricians beg to differ (on design)?

Attachment taken from ECCSA Winter 2014 newsletter.

BTW, my opinion on this is...cop out!

sydthebeat

total cop out, let them publish the senior council advice