Bio Energy

GreenPower15

Hi I'm a student studying Sustainable Energy Power Systems and I am doing my thesis on Alternative energy crops. I was just wonder if I could get farmers opinions on the growing of oil seed rape, Miscanthus or Willow, who have gone down this route and how it worked out for them!! Was it viable or not. Anyone one who has an interest in this sector can comment.

blue5000

Miscanthus seems to be a dead duck, yields never materialized, poor weed control, no markets, expensive to plant etc. OSR never got any govt support, probably because the gov earns over 50% of the retail price of oil sold in this country as tax in one form or another.
Look up Gurteen college about willow, AFAIK they grow about 80 acres of it to heat the place. Don't mention the small mountain of logs parked at the front gate though. Rumour has it they burn the logs to provide heat to dry the willow:o

Do a search on here, there is a good few threads about disgruntled farmers wondering how to get rid of/sell miscanthus. Reality is without gov leadership there is no bio-energy in Ireland. Farrelly bros worth a look too on willow. Sorry I seem so negative but I wasted 2 years of my life trying to do a masters on miscanthus, so I may be slightly biased against it.:(

davidk1394

We had 45ac of miscantus... yeilded alright it was set in 07 & 08 we sold it too the esb in edenderry... weeds were a constant annoyance and it was ploughed in 2013.. even now some of the plants are still growing up..made no money.. tough on machines... when you bring it into your yard the slightest bit of wind and its everywhere also the esb were a shower of fockers they would only take 1 load a day... Some lads we knew pelleted it and sold it for boilers a few lads in wexford made biquettes out of it.. but its not suitable for ireland aa we dont have the market

GreenPower15

Sorry to hear that now, so it only really suited to very good tillage, or is there too much work in it to get it properly established. Like what would you think needs to change? like was the price ye were getting, was it not enough? Or does the government really need to get it act together and have more outlets for yere produce?

tabby aspreme

Ring Quinn's in baltinglass, they were promoting miscanthus , tell them you want to sow 50 acres of it and you'll get all the info

merryberry

Dafm have a climate mitgation consultantation document on their website. This should b a help as it outlines policy on bioenergy.

Knowall Macduff

davidk1394 wrote: »

We had 45ac of miscantus... yeilded alright it was set in 07 & 08 we sold it too the esb in edenderry... weeds were a constant annoyance and it was ploughed in 2013.. even now some of the plants are still growing up..made no money.. tough on machines... when you bring it into your yard the slightest bit of wind and its everywhere also the esb were a shower of fockers they would only take 1 load a day... Some lads we knew pelleted it and sold it for boilers a few lads in wexford made biquettes out of it.. but its not suitable for ireland aa we dont have the market

talking to bord na mona who run the plant in edenderry miscanthus doesn't work for them because of the chlorophyl which forms an acid when it burns and would destroy the boilers if they used too much in the fuel mix. The other problem is the cost of transport, the standard 45 ft walking floor trailer holds about 6-8 tons of miscanthus but 25tons of willow so if the distance is more than 30 kilometres the cost of haulage would exceed the value of the crop. We grow a bit of willow contracted to BNM

blue5000

Knowall Macduff wrote: »

talking to bord na mona who run the plant in edenderry miscanthus doesn't work for them because of the chlorophyl which forms an acid when it burns and would destroy the boilers if they used too much in the fuel mix. The other problem is the cost of transport, the standard 45 ft walking floor trailer holds about 6-8 tons of miscanthus but 25tons of willow so if the distance is more than 30 kilometres the cost of haulage would exceed the value of the crop. We grow a bit of willow contracted to BNM

I think it might be chlorine in the miscanthus that causes the problem in boilers. What dm was the willow and miscanthus?

Knowall Macduff

blue5000 wrote: »

I think it might be chlorine in the miscanthus that causes the problem in boilers. What dm was the willow and miscanthus?

I was mixing up chlorine and chlorophyll probably, it is hydrochloric acid that forms.
i don't know about the miscanthus dm the bnm guy was talking about being offered miscanthus and why it was no good to them. Willow is burned at between 45 and55%dm

davidk1394

GreenPower15 wrote: »

Sorry to hear that now, so it only really suited to very good tillage, or is there too much work in it to get it properly established. Like what would you think needs to change? like was the price ye were getting, was it not enough? Or does the government really need to get it act together and have more outlets for yere produce?

Miscantus originally came from a warner climate so thats 1 thing... the machines for planting aren't accurate enough and require people on the back ensuring an even planting... there isn't enough of a market for the product so its harder to sell... the price per tonne is too low to even cover your costs.. you can't compact it enough into the trucks to haul it.. if you have a warm winter your f#cked because you need frost to bring down the moisture content or else it will heat while it is being stored for burning.. also there's not enough experience out there about it.. thats a photo of it being harvested as yoy can see the dust off the crop is serious.. and we had to walk each load to help compact it and fit an exta few tonnes... so we just ploughed down the crop and put it back into grass

blue5000

davidk1394 wrote: »

We had 45ac of miscantus... yeilded alright it was set in 07 & 08 we sold it too the esb in edenderry... weeds were a constant annoyance and it was ploughed in 2013.. even now some of the plants are still growing up..made no money.. tough on machines... when you bring it into your yard the slightest bit of wind and its everywhere also the esb were a shower of fockers they would only take 1 load a day... Some lads we knew pelleted it and sold it for boilers a few lads in wexford made biquettes out of it.. but its not suitable for ireland aa we dont have the market

Did you ever bed cattle with it?

gozunda

blue5000 wrote: »

Did you ever bed cattle with it?

There is a serious market for miscanthus for bedding in the equine industry.

The local coop sells pallets of the stuff - comes packed in bales, and I know of suppliers who also sell it by the lorry load to equestrian premises.

Also good for animal and poultry litter as it is easy to compost and doesn't tend to rob the soil of nitrogen the way straw and wood chip does.

GreenPower15

davidk1394 wrote: »

Miscantus originally came from a warner climate so thats 1 thing... the machines for planting aren't accurate enough and require people on the back ensuring an even planting... there isn't enough of a market for the product so its harder to sell... the price per tonne is too low to even cover your costs.. you can't compact it enough into the trucks to haul it.. if you have a warm winter your f#cked because you need frost to bring down the moisture content or else it will heat while it is being stored for burning.. also there's not enough experience out there about it.. thats a photo of it being harvested as yoy can see the dust off the crop is serious.. and we had to walk each load to help compact it and fit an exta few tonnes... so we just ploughed down the crop and put it back into grass

Ya seen the pictures there, the dust off it is unreal, must be some crack on windy day!!

GreenPower15

We'll say now Oil seed rape is there much of a market out there for it. Like could it be grown each year, or it mainly grown as a break crop in a crop rotation every four years?

GreenPower15

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Ring Quinn's in baltinglass, they were promoting miscanthus , tell them you want to sow 50 acres of it and you'll get all the info

Thanks tabby aspreme, but I should be covered on that side of things as Teagasc have some great stuff there for establishing and maintaining the crop!!

Knowall Macduff

GreenPower15 wrote: »

We'll say now Oil seed rape is there much of a market out there for it. Like could it be grown each year, or it mainly grown as a break crop in a crop rotation every four years?

I know one farmer growing a substantial amount where the seed goes for crushing for whatever and he is now using the straw which was virtually worthless to dry all his grain

davidk1394

GreenPower15 wrote: »

Ya seen the pictures there, the dust off it is unreal, must be some crack on windy day!!

Absolutely cruel.. ya'd have every window closed on the tractor

Kevhog1988

Pm darragh haven, he works for a crowd who build energy processing plants

tabby aspreme

GreenPower15 wrote: »

Thanks tabby aspreme, but I should be covered on that side of things as Teagasc have some great stuff there for establishing and maintaining the crop!!

Take a look at Quinn's website, they have a piece on why miscanthus is not doing well

Blackgrass

Grow alot of osr and store many times more, good break in cereal roation when used properly but need good yield and price to make it financially sustainable unless land is rotten with Blackgrass and spending silly amounts on herbicides(not an irish problem i hope!!). To be honest it's a little hypocritical to say taking lnd out of production considering most of scotland and alot of Se Ireland grow malt barley.... For whiskey/beer... So it's very much Bs when farmers claim to 'feed the world' vs the hate Energy crops get as without these 'release' valves with the extra production from this area prices would be? very low!!
Now one area i will target is bio-gas, a subsidy 'idealist' driven industry driven by ignorance of those in charge and vultures by those involved in it's current form. I'm sure darragh could help .

blue5000

Blackgrass wrote: »

Grow alot of osr and store many times more, good break in cereal roation when used properly but need good yield and price to make it financially sustainable unless land is rotten with Blackgrass and spending silly amounts on herbicides(not an irish problem i hope!!). To be honest it's a little hypocritical to say taking lnd out of production considering most of scotland and alot of Se Ireland grow malt barley.... For whiskey/beer... So it's very much Bs when farmers claim to 'feed the world' vs the hate Energy crops get as without these 'release' valves with the extra production from this area prices would be? very low!!
Now one area i will target is bio-gas, a subsidy 'idealist' driven industry driven by ignorance of those in charge and vultures by those involved in it's current form. I'm sure darragh could help .

+1 on biogas, seems that any land capable of growing maize silage within a 12 mile radius of an AD in the UK is being priced out of food production. Darragh will be able to explain the economics a lot better than me.

Blackgrass

blue5000 wrote: »

+1 on biogas, seems that any land capable of growing maize silage within a 12 mile radius of an AD in the UK is being priced out of food production. Darragh will be able to explain the economics a lot better than me.

50, with complimentary fleet of larrinton trailers and fastracs and the worst drivers that are gong to ruin the job on everyone. Evenmade national press fs!

Dawggone

Blackgrass wrote: »

50, with complimentary fleet of larrinton trailers and fastracs and the worst drivers that are gong to ruin the job on everyone. Evenmade national press fs!

50...miles??

Blackgrass

Dawggone wrote: »

50...miles??

Yep. Send in groups of 10+ rather than little and often 'so as not to cause disruption' a certian spud grower who has to wait til finished spuds as needs drivers/trailers on that job. Pj lee/Highflyer farms or 'Pretoria energy' :rolleyes:.
Some of the others are not near as bad run water bowsers continuos large mobile signs to warn of mud etc...

Dawggone

Blackgrass wrote: »

Yep. Send in groups of 10+ rather than little and often 'so as not to cause disruption' a certian spud grower who has to wait til finished spuds as needs drivers/trailers on that job. Pj lee/Highflyer farms or 'Pretoria energy' :rolleyes:.
Some of the others are not near as bad run water bowsers continuos large mobile signs to warn of mud etc...

Good Lord he harvests maize AFTER spuds.....is it his own land or rented?

Blackgrass

Dawggone wrote: »

Good Lord he harvests maize AFTER spuds.....is it his own land or rented?

Not all just splashes stupid wads of cash at folk who can't see the hand n front of their face. They alone have caused 2 fatal crashes due to crap on the roads and in good oul Uk wih a H and S mania i would not be supprised if it something is in the pipework. All because of someones greed reckless ness.

Dawggone

Blackgrass wrote: »

Not all just splashes stupid wads of cash at folk who can't see the hand n front of their face. They alone have caused 2 fatal crashes due to crap on the roads and in good oul Uk wih a H and S mania i would not be supprised if it something is in the pipework. All because of someones greed reckless ness.

Serious enough situation there. Can negligence be proven?

How much per acre do those guys pay for land? Wads of cash and all...:)

Blackgrass

Dawggone wrote: »

Serious enough situation there. Can negligence be proven?

How much per acre do those guys pay for land? Wads of cash and all...:)

300 base then depends on quality and distance and if digestate can be returned up 500, blowing veg guys out of the water. Heck, it is most the veg guys involved re-using all that waste, just ignore the 50,000 tons of maize in the pits :rolleyes:.

In last few months, on the chittering road near /Ely which is spud/beet territory so folk are used to big kit on road and mud, but still...
http://www.wisbechstandard.co.uk/news/probe_demanded_into_collisions_on_the_a142_near_mepal_where_two_have_died_and_three_other_collisions_occurred_1_3873474 (quick google.)

Dawggone

Blackgrass wrote: »

300 base then depends on quality and distance and if digestate can be returned up 500, blowing veg guys out of the water. Heck, it is most the veg guys involved re-using all that waste, just ignore the 50,000 tons of maize in the pits :rolleyes:.

In last few months, on the chittering road near /Ely which is spud/beet territory so folk are used to big kit on road and mud, but still...
http://www.wisbechstandard.co.uk/news/probe_demanded_into_collisions_on_the_a142_near_mepal_where_two_have_died_and_three_other_collisions_occurred_1_3873474 (quick google.)

That's quite a bit of money to be throwing about for an acre of land!
Obviously the money being paid is skewing the land rental market... but it must be a boon to the local economy with jobs etc.

With that kind of carry on transporting maize on the road something must be done...vosa could be paying a visit...

Got roped in to spread muck for a day last spring and the muck was watery. Eighteen ton spreader loaded to the gills but I didn't close back door properly...
Cops met me in the field...you wouldn't have to be Sherlock ....:)
I was given a choice of clean it up immediately or pay for the fire brigade to do it. They told me that they had received two calls about it!!

Blackgrass

Dawggone wrote: »

That's quite a bit of money to be throwing about for an acre of land!
Obviously the money being paid is skewing the land rental market... but it must be a boon to the local economy with jobs etc.

With that kind of carry on transporting maize on the road something must be done...vosa could be paying a visit...

Got roped in to spread muck for a day last spring and the muck was watery. Eighteen ton spreader loaded to the gills but I didn't close back door properly...
Cops met me in the field...you wouldn't have to be Sherlock ....:)
I was given a choice of clean it up immediately or pay for the fire brigade to do it. They told me that they had received two calls about it!!

Nope, german companies in the main build and run, i know for a fact eastern europeans make up most of Lee's crew as spend rest of time sorting spuds in pack houses.
To be fair their not all bad, few have converted MAUS loaders and fill lorries or trailers and road if it wet and run 2/3 in field to haul of else if an old slab is on farm tip and re load out. It's the minority that wll ruin it on everyone.
We were approached and my neighbour grew some in 2012... Silly amount of fert spread to get it to grow in bad year, field was like the somme.

darragh_haven

Blackgrass wrote: »

Nope, german companies in the main build and run, i know for a fact eastern europeans make up most of Lee's crew as spend rest of time sorting spuds in pack houses.
To be fair their not all bad, few have converted MAUS loaders and fill lorries or trailers and road if it wet and run 2/3 in field to haul of else if an old slab is on farm tip and re load out. It's the minority that wll ruin it on everyone.
We were approached and my neighbour grew some in 2012... Silly amount of fert spread to get it to grow in bad year, field was like the somme.

There has been a reduction in the tarrif for plant from this January and this might cool the jets of the Biogas industry where a feedstock is being grown. The whole concept of Biogas is to use a waste product but id say less than 10% of the plants in the UK operate on this principal.
That plant near Ely operating on maize is about 5 times bigger than anything we've ever built. Never seen the like of the ****e and mud around the roads near it

Blackgrass

darragh_haven wrote: »

There has been a reduction in the tarrif for plant from this January and this might cool the jets of the Biogas industry where a feedstock is being grown. The whole concept of Biogas is to use a waste product but id say less than 10% of the plants in the UK operate on this principal.
That plant near Ely operating on maize is about 5 times bigger than anything we've ever built. Never seen the like of the ****e and mud around the roads near it

That's the worst thing, the idea and intentions are very good, using waste to get very good fertiliser. It's just gone way over board and a gravy train? for some...

_Jumper_

http://science.slashdot.org/story/15/01/29/2334238/new-study-says-governments-should-ditch-reliance-on-biofuels

Knowall Macduff

GreenPower15 wrote: »

Hi I'm a student studying Sustainable Energy Power Systems and I am doing my thesis on Alternative energy crops. I was just wonder if I could get farmers opinions on the growing of oil seed rape, Miscanthus or Willow, who have gone down this route and how it worked out for them!! Was it viable or not. Anyone one who has an interest in this sector can comment.

So are you getting what you're looking for or have you any specific questions

GreenPower15

Knowall Macduff wrote: »

So are you getting what you're looking for or have you any specific questions

Ya thanks Knowall Macduff!! Helpful enough, must just go back and pick out relevant stuff from everyone's comments!!