Should the State fund religious school? - Irish Times

L.Jenkins

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/should-the-state-fund-religious-schools-1.2075990

Unthinkable: Children have a right not to be indoctrinated, argues professor of philosophy Desmond M Clarke, and schools that discriminate on religious grounds should not receive funds

For Prof Clarke, analysing the proper role of church in education starts with disentangling competing rights claims. It has been claimed that Catholics have a right to send their children to Catholic schools but “the alleged right is based on nothing more than the theology of that particular church”, Clarke has argued.

A very different right needs to be considered, he says, thus providing today’s idea: “Children have a right not to be taught in an uncritical way about values and convictions.”

Interesting article in the Irish Times yesterday. Should religious schools receive funding? Personally I feel that each school should be state funded with the church being denied patronage of any school. I want to send my future children to a non-denominational school and let them chose if religion is for them later on in life and not have it rammed down their necks from every angle at aged 4+

lazygal

If you want a non-denominational state funded school in Ireland, you're out of luck. Every single school has a denomination in Ireland, in fact it is a legal requirement, and the Dept of Ed rules state religion is the most important subject taught in schools.
The system here sucks. It is something which makes us wonder if we're better off educating our children somewhere else. Even educate together schools are not ideal, IMO, as the religion programme in them simply reinforces the idea that being part of a religion is something everyone should celebrate. And don't get me started on the Goodness Me, Goodness You programme in VEC run schools.

silverharp

As a non believer in any religion I'd say yes they should. Taxpayers fund education and parents should have the ultimate power of voting with their feet.
If every taxpayer with a child was given an educational account to buy their education then the issue would be moot as long as the historical unlevel playing field was balanced first. I'd imagine the majority of parents would prefer to pick a school based on other criteria first rather than if it has an exclusive religious ethos but those that do should be facilitated

lazygal

The problem with the Irish system is the pointless duplication of resources. There's a few schools near us, I think four are mixed catholic, one is a gaelscoil and catholic, there's a CofI one, and and ET one. Then not too far there's single sex primary schools of catholic ethos, and other schools. I've driven around rural areas and seen ridiculous numbers of primary schools within a small radius. This fragmentation does children no favours. Dividing children up based on gender and religion is artificial. There is no need for it and it simply serves vested interests rather than the needs of children. Why do we have so many small schools in Ireland, simply because parents want a religious education? Why is religious ethos a legitimate way to divide children, when if one proposed dividing children up on ethnic grounds people would be horrified?

silverharp

lazygal wrote: »

The problem with the Irish system is the pointless duplication of resources. There's a few schools near us, I think four are mixed catholic, one is a gaelscoil and catholic, there's a CofI one, and and ET one. Then not too far there's single sex primary schools of catholic ethos, and other schools. I've driven around rural areas and seen ridiculous numbers of primary schools within a small radius. This fragmentation does children no favours. Dividing children up based on gender and religion is artificial. There is no need for it and it simply serves vested interests rather than the needs of children. Why do we have so many small schools in Ireland, simply because parents want a religious education? Why is religious ethos a legitimate way to divide children, when if one proposed dividing children up on ethnic grounds people would be horrified?

Would need to know the cost? Do rural schools cost more to run per kid than in cities. If they do then a consolidation would be needed so as not to prop lazy parenting. Or else an element of fees introduced so they can pay for their choice.

lazygal

Where does the choice of school end? There's 30,000 Christian denominations alone, that's before we get into different branches of Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc. Would it not make far more sense to have schools for everyone, regardless of faith, and let parents indoctrinate on their own time, if they so wish.

L.Jenkins

lazygal wrote: »

Where does the choice of school end? There's 30,000 Christian denominations alone, that's before we get into different branches of Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc. Would it not make far more sense to have schools for everyone, regardless of faith, and let parents indoctrinate on their own time, if they so wish.

That's a good point, because it's insanity trying to cater to everyone. What about the parents who want to raise their children without a religious belief system. Such schools are far and few between.

I think it was Ruairi Quinns plan to take patronage away from the school to protect the rights of potential and current employees, parents and children alike. I believe that he also felt that time given to religion could be best used on more vital subjects at primary level such as maths, with the burden of religious teaching being placed on the parents.

PopePalpatine

I expect this opinion piece to pick up little (if any) traction. Politicians won't see the patronage system as a burning issue if voters don't speak up about it, and I'm pretty sure the Department of Education's civil servants will live up to their reputation as the most conservative government department.

lazygal

I've contacted TDs about it. In fairness, one was very helpful, as was a Senator, and I've forwarded replies to questions to Teach Don't Preach. Others whom I've met on a canvass get a deer in the headlights look and simply rabble on about providing resources for schools. When I ask why my children have to be opted out of learning in a state funded school they don't know what to say, and usually mention the completely over-subscribed ET school. I had one try to tell me the VEC a ten minute drive away was non denominational. When I pointed out it was not legally possible to have a non denominational school and explained the divisiveness of dividing children up for indoctrination, it was clear the TD wanted no further engagement with me.

Absolam

lazygal wrote: »

If you want a non-denominational state funded school in Ireland, you're out of luck. Every single school has a denomination in Ireland, in fact it is a legal requirement, and the Dept of Ed rules state religion is the most important subject taught in schools.

I've seen a couple of posters throw this out a few times now, but no one has ever provided a source for it? What is the legal requirement for a school to have a denomination?
I know there are people who say Irish law effectively bans non-denominational schools (in the face of schools who claim to be non denominational), but can anyone point out where there is a legal requirement for a school to have a denomination? Presuming denomination is being used in a religious sense here?
And which Dept of Education rule states religion is the most important subject taught in schools? Bearing in mind that rule 68 of the (remarkably archaic) rules for primary schools says that "Of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important", which really isn't the same thing, I can't find a rule that says religion is the most important subject taught? In any case rule 68 (as is so often the case) is followed immediately by rule 69, which includes rule " 2)(a)No pupil shall receive, or be present at, any Religious Instruction, of which his parents or guardian disapprove"
Regardless, the DoEs Primary School Curriculum doesn't include religious instruction or education, it says the development and implementation of the curriculum in religious education in primary schools remains the responsibility of the different church authorities... which may indicate how much emphasis is placed on the nearly 80 years old rule.

Hotblack Desiato

silverharp wrote: »

Would need to know the cost? Do rural schools cost more to run per kid than in cities.

It's not just rural schools, urban CoI schools tend to be small e.g. my daughter's school has 4 teachers (doubled-up classes) and less than 100 pupils, there are only 8-10 pupils in each of 5th and 6th class at the moment, so it wasn't so popular a few years back, but junior infants is now turning away kids. Children of atheist parents with no sibling already there go to the very bottom of the list, behind protestants and behind other christians, so even in this CoI school a catholic baptismal cert could make the difference to get your child in :rolleyes:

Having 90% of primary schools under catholic control isn't all, they also get priority over non-christians in at least some CoI schools as well.

Our son starts in Sept only because of the sibling rule, he wouldn't have got in without a baptismal cert if his sister hadn't already been there. It's a good school and obviously it's far more convenient for parents to have their children not going to different schools.

Problem is at second level there are only single-sex catholic schools, no non-catholic or mixed option at all in our area. There is no political appetite to do anything about it, there are two gaelscoil primaries and a secondary so that's our lot for 'alternative' schools, if we're not happy with religion we can always educate our kids in a school that doesn't teach through English :mad:


To answer your question, yes smaller schools cost more to run. Building maintenance, cost of the building, and cost of land, per pupil, is higher because the economy of scale is less. Every school has a prinicpal, so more schools = more principals = higher cost (and more promotion posts for teachers, so they've little incentive to rail against our balkanised inefficient and discriminatory education system.)

Hotblack Desiato

The only non-denominational schools in Ireland are entirely privately funded because Dept. Education refuses to fund them. This issue has been raised in here numerous times.


http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2014/08/how-irish-law-effectively-prohibits-non-denominational-secular-schools-based-on-human-rights/

the requirements of being a Patron are such that it would be impossible in practice to provide secular non-denominational education consistently with them. Recognised schools are obliged to to promote the spiritual development of students, and to abide by Rule 68 of the Rules for National Schools, which includes that a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school.

Also see this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80104037

Absolam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The only non-denominational schools in Ireland are entirely privately funded because Dept. Education refuses to fund them. This issue has been raised in here numerous times.

Is there a list of non denominational schools the DoE doesn't fund because they're non denominational?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Recognised schools are obliged to to promote the spiritual development of students, and to abide by Rule 68 of the Rules for National Schools, which includes that a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school.

Is there a record of any schools being censured by the DoE for non compliance with Rule 68 in say, the last ten years?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Also see this thread

It's probably not the most informative of all the threads on A&A on the subject, but it does assist my point; lots of people are saying what is and isn't the case, but no one is linking to any hard facts. The Primary School Curriculum set out by the DoE provides no specification for religious education or instruction at all, it quite specifically says "religious or ethical education is the responsibility of the different school patron bodies".

To go further, the DoE Instroduction to Primary Curriculum specifically refuses to set out a Religious Education curriculum:
"Since the Department of Education and Science, in the context of the Education Act (1998), recognises the rights of the different church authorities to design curricula in religious education at primary level and to supervise their teaching and implementation, a religious education curriculum is not included in these curriculum documents."

That means the 2.5 hours per week allocated to religious education (typically) ('typically' telling being placed after the subject name rather than the time in the document) in Primary schools can legitimately be spent on the importance of tolerance towards the practice, culture and life-style of a range of religious convictions and expressions, and developing in children a tolerance and understanding towards the beliefs of others (paraphrased from the DoE Curriculum area of Religious Education).