certifier

goobrien

Hello,

Can a chartered services engineer act as certifier for a house extension under si9, or would it just be a structural engineer? Cannot find any info on the Type of chartered engineer required. All info, including the statute book on si9 deems a chartered engineer to be allowed, but no specifics on the Type of engineer,

Rgds,

G

Gumbo

goobrien wrote: »

Hello,

Can a chartered services engineer act as certifier for a house extension under si9, or would it just be a structural engineer? Cannot find any info on the Type of chartered engineer required. All info, including the statute book on si9 deems a chartered engineer to be allowed, but no specifics on the Type of engineer,

Rgds,

G

No.

Registered Architect
Chartered Enginer (most likely civil/structural)
Chartered Building Surveyor

goobrien

Thanks for reply. A structural or civil engineer cannot advise on services, just as a services engineer cannot advise on structural issues. The building code regs provide no clarity on this matter. Can you point me to a piece of legislation or document that defines the required chartered engineer role as certifier?

Thx,

Gavin

Gumbo

goobrien wrote: »

Thanks for reply. A structural or civil engineer cannot advise on services, just as a services engineer cannot advise on structural issues. The building code regs provide no clarity on this matter. Can you point me to a piece of legislation or document that defines the required chartered engineer role as certifier?

Thx,

Gavin

SI9 of 2014

EmmetF

goobrien wrote: »

Can a chartered services engineer act as certifier for a house extension under si9...
Can you point me to a piece of legislation or document that defines the required chartered engineer role as certifier?

Thx,

Gavin

kceire wrote: »

SI9 of 2014

It drives me mad when people are purposely unhelpful.

See article 9 of SI9 of 2014 - Notice of Assignment of Assigned Certifier
"As the building owner, I have assigned the following person as Assigned Certifier, being a person named on a register maintained pursuant to Part 3 or Part 5 of the Building Control Act 2007 or Section 7 of the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act 1969."

The Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act, 1969
Section 7
"Chartered members of the Institution shall be known as “Chartered Engineers” and shall have the right so to describe themselves and to use after their names the abbreviation “C.Eng.”"

"The Institution" refers to Engineers Ireland. As in any chartered member of Engineers Ireland can act as an Assigned Certifier.

EDIT: To avoid misleading anyone on this - The above doesn't mean a chartered services engineer is competent as an assigned certifier.

Rabbo

EmmetF wrote: »

It drives me mad when people are purposely unhelpful.

See article 9 of SI9 of 2014 - Notice of Assignment of Assigned Certifier
"As the building owner, I have assigned the following person as Assigned Certifier, being a person named on a register maintained pursuant to Part 3 or Part 5 of the Building Control Act 2007 or Section 7 of the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act 1969."

The Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act, 1969
Section 7
"Chartered members of the Institution shall be known as “Chartered Engineers” and shall have the right so to describe themselves and to use after their names the abbreviation “C.Eng.”"

"The Institution" refers to Engineers Ireland. As in any chartered member of Engineers Ireland can act as an Assigned Certifier.

It's not that simple I'm afraid.


The Owner has to certify the following in the standard Notice of Assignment of Assigned Certifier:

As the building owner, I have assigned the following person as Assigned Certifier, being a person named on a register maintained pursuant to Part 3 or Part 5 of the Building Control Act 2007 or Section 7 of the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act 1969. I am satisfied having regard to the Code of Practice for Inspecting and Certifying
Buildings and Works that the person so assigned is competent to inspect the building or works and to coordinate the inspection work undertaken by others, and to certify the works for compliance with the requirements of the Second Schedule to the Building Regulations insofar as they apply to the building or works concerned.

It would be very difficult to demonstrate that a building services engineer has the competency (experience and expertise) to act as AC in a building project.


This query was raised a number of times in various seminars I attended on the subject in the last year or two and the overwhelming view is that a Chartered Services Engineer would not be considered competent to carry out the role of AC.

EmmetF

Rabbo wrote: »

The Owner has to certify the following in the standard Notice of Assignment of Assigned Certifier:
It would be very difficult to demonstrate that a building services engineer has the competency (experience and expertise) to act as AC in a building project.

Agreed. However, it is still a fact that any chartered engineer can act as an assigned certifier.
Whether or not a building owner should accept a chartered services engineer as thier assigned certifier is another issue. How do you stop non competent engineers from advertising themselves as assigned certifiers? Your run of the mill one off house owner might not know that they are not competent.

Gumbo

EmmetF wrote: »

It drives me mad when people are purposely unhelpful.

See article 9 of SI9 of 2014 - Notice of Assignment of Assigned Certifier
"As the building owner, I have assigned the following person as Assigned Certifier, being a person named on a register maintained pursuant to Part 3 or Part 5 of the Building Control Act 2007 or Section 7 of the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act 1969."

The Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act, 1969
Section 7
"Chartered members of the Institution shall be known as “Chartered Engineers” and shall have the right so to describe themselves and to use after their names the abbreviation “C.Eng.”"

"The Institution" refers to Engineers Ireland. As in any chartered member of Engineers Ireland can act as an Assigned Certifier.

EmmetF wrote: »

Agreed. However, it is still a fact that any chartered engineer can act as an assigned certifier.
Whether or not a building owner should accept a chartered services engineer as thier assigned certifier is another issue. How do you stop non competent engineers from advertising themselves as assigned certifiers? Your run of the mill one off house owner might not know that they are not competent.

Ohh please give over. If I encounter a site and ask for the structural drawings and the drawings are done by a services engineers I would rule them inadequate for the works and attempt to close the site until accurate structural engineering details are prepared.

It also drives me mad when people are unhelpful or provide inaccurate advice

Rabbo

EmmetF wrote: »

Agreed. However, it is still a fact that any chartered engineer can act as an assigned certifier.
Whether or not a building owner should accept a chartered services engineer as thier assigned certifier is another issue. How do you stop non competent engineers from advertising themselves as assigned certifiers? Your run of the mill one off house owner might not know that they are not competent.

The legislation puts the onus on the Owner that they are satisfied that the AC is competent. I'm sure there are plenty of incompetent Architects, Chartered Engineers and Registered Surveyors out there. It's like anything else, a consumer should be satisfied that someone is competent to do a job before appointing them, least of all someone who is designing and certifying your build. You can't really stop non-competent people advertising their services.

EmmetF

kceire wrote: »

Ohh please give over. If I encounter a site and ask for the structural drawings and the drawings are done by a services engineers I would rule them inadequate for the works and attempt to close the site until accurate structural engineering details are prepared.

It also drives me mad when people are unhelpful or provide inaccurate advice

I would do the same.
Stop trying to pick a fight, at no point did I offer innacurate advice. I also didn't say that a typical chartered services engineer is competant to take on the assigned certifier roll, I merely pointed out the legal wording on who can be an assigned certifter (which is what the OP asked for). If his services engineer is compenant as an assigned certifier, and the structural drawings are by a structural engineer, then so be it, work away. Not my call.

THE DON FANUCCI

My friend is a chartered quantity surveyor, can he fill the assigned certifier role?

DOCARCH

THE DON FANUCCI wrote: »

My friend is a chartered quantity surveyor, can he fill the assigned certifier role?

No. Only a chartered building surveyor.

RORY O CONNOR

Or a Chartered Engineer or A registered Architect

Sobko

DOCARCH wrote: »

No. Only a chartered building surveyor.

I thought a registered Building Surveyor could.

Des1988

THE DON FANUCCI wrote: »

My friend is a chartered quantity surveyor, can he fill the assigned certifier role?

There is no difference in the qualifications required to become a "Building Surveyor" or a "Quantity Surveyor" so how can the term "Building Surveyor" differentiate between the two??

I'm a qualified "Quantity Surveyor" and if i want to become chartered I merely select from a list of topics on the RIAI website and follow that career path!!

DOCARCH

A registered/chartered (whatever you want to call it) quantity surveyor cannot act as a design/assigned certifier under SI9.

Registration/the register of quantity surveyors and building surveyors is separate...see Building Control Act, 2007.

markqs

Rabbo wrote: »

The legislation puts the onus on the Owner that they are satisfied that the AC is competent. I'm sure there are plenty of incompetent Architects, Chartered Engineers and Registered Surveyors out there. It's like anything else, a consumer should be satisfied that someone is competent to do a job before appointing them, least of all someone who is designing and certifying your build. You can't really stop non-competent people advertising their services.

so are we saying that whilst their is a comprehensive list of namely 3 assigned certifiers under the legislation that still, their is an option that the building owner i.e. the client also has the option to appoint / assign some-one that s/he feels is competent? I understand this to be 'ancillary certifiers' under the legislation. obviously some-one in this category may not have the correct PI insurance etc if anything did go wrong further down the line.

don't shoot me now- this is my interpretation of the content of the thread and the legislation and im looking for some-one to correct me and or agree with me!!!

Rabbo

markqs wrote: »

so are we saying that whilst their is a comprehensive list of namely 3 assigned certifiers under the legislation that still, their is an option that the building owner i.e. the client also has the option to appoint / assign some-one that s/he feels is competent? I understand this to be 'ancillary certifiers' under the legislation. obviously some-one in this category may not have the correct PI insurance etc if anything did go wrong further down the line.

don't shoot me now- this is my interpretation of the content of the thread and the legislation and im looking for some-one to correct me and or agree with me!!!

No, the Assigned Certifier has to be competent as well as one of the three professions listed.

It's advisable that ancillary certifiers have PI insurance. I've seen a case where a supplier(& designer) of one element of works refuse to provide an ancillary certificate as they didn't hold PI insurance

markqs

Rabbo wrote: »

No, the Assigned Certifier has to be competent as well as one of the three professions listed.

It's advisable that ancillary certifiers have PI insurance. I've seen a case where a supplier(& designer) of one element of works refuse to provide an ancillary certificate as they didn't hold PI insurance

ok thanks, what lead me astray was that environ.ie have defined ancillary certifiers as being other competent persons on a project as being at the discretion of the building owner to appoint- why have they muddied the water with this statement- why not leave it at just either the design certifier and the assigned certifer!!!?

RORY O CONNOR

Rabbo wrote: »

No, the Assigned Certifier has to be competent as well as one of the three professions listed.

It's advisable that ancillary certifiers have PI insurance. I've seen a case where a supplier(& designer) of one element of works refuse to provide an ancillary certificate as they didn't hold PI insurance

Well anyone who is not insured is best avoided anyway. And as time passes more ACs will get jobs completed and then be in a position to give references for their services.

Some people don't get that the primary role of the AC is that the regs are adhered to. Some folks think the Ac is also responsible for the warranty on the works-which is in fact the builder's responsibility and not that of the AC.