Irish Rail Airport Link Proposal

billie1b

Irish Rail proposing a €300 million line link up to DUB direct from Cork, Galway and Belfast, throwing more doubt to the future of an already dwindling Cork airport. They reckon the whole job will take less than 5 years to complete.
Wonder if they'll get the go ahead

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-plan-to-link-dublin-airport-with-rest-of-country-30936601.html

Jamie2k9

A lot of that is PR, a link up will involve a change of train!

roundymac

Train to Heuston, Luas to Connelly and bus to the airport already exists, I' don't see this being any real difference as it is to Cork, people are more likely to get the aircoach IMO like they do at present.

ozzy jr

I would have thought Luas to airport would be the logical thing to do.

Victor

billie1b wrote: »

Irish Rail proposing a €300 million line link up to DUB direct from Cork, Galway and Belfast, throwing more doubt to the future of an already dwindling Cork airport.

As a Cork person, this attitude needs to be disposed of. Cork has its restrictions (lower population base, shorter runway length, smaller aircraft size / range, low cloud, modest connectivity) and therefore will continue to offer a much more limited service than Dublin. Improving connectivity between Dublin Airport and the rest of the country imporoves the international connectivty of the rest of the country.

roundymac wrote: »

Train to Heuston, Luas to Connelly and bus to the airport already exists

Wouldn't you just get on the bus at Heuston, seeing as it starts there?

I' don't see this being any real difference as it is to Cork, people are more likely to get the aircoach IMO like they do at present.

Aircoach only serves Cork city centre, what if you are travelling from Mallow or Cobh?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

A lot of that is PR, a link up will involve a change of train!

Not necessarily, you could get on a train at Cork / Claremorris / Gorey and go direct to the airport.

ozzy jr wrote: »

I would have thought Luas to airport would be the logical thing to do.

That would only connect the airport with parts of Dublin, not most of the country.

markpb

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

A lot of that is PR, a link up will involve a change of train!

Some randomer on the radio this morning mentioned Cork to Heuston, PPT and onward to the airport without any changes. I don't think that's feasible or at least, it's not what IR are proposing but I could be wrong.

bk

This project has been mentioned many times in the past and it is mostly just a waste of money.

The journey time from the city to the airport by this pretty indirect route would be no faster then the bus (747, Aircoach) does it at the moment, never mind the relatively low frequency it would have due to congestion through the city center train network.

The €300 million would be far better spent on Dart Underground, Metro North, more Luas lines, hell even the BRT would be better value for money IMO.

billie1b

Victor wrote: »

As a Cork person, this attitude needs to be disposed of. Cork has its restrictions (lower population base, shorter runway length, smaller aircraft size / range, low cloud, modest connectivity) and therefore will continue to offer a much more limited service than Dublin. Improving connectivity between Dublin Airport and the rest of the country imporoves the international connectivty of the rest of the country.

Just to let you know, im in support of growth and stability at Cork Airport, also Shannon, I was just phrasing from the article, id much rather prefer Cork Airport breakaway from the DAA and try at it on their own, I reckon they would do much better

stillalive88

If they really do it, could be quite useful...
But a couple more flights to Cork would not be bad!

bk

stillalive88 wrote: »

If they really do it, could be quite useful...
But a couple more flights to Cork would not be bad!

How would it be useful?

At the moment you get the train to Hueston and then get on the 747 bus from there direct to the airport.

With this, you would need to drag your bags on the Luas to Connolly, then up the stairs and onto a Dart, then change onto another Dart at Howth junction to the airport!!!

Pretty horrible and indirect and certainly slower!

Forget about them running Diesel trains direct to the airport, the capacity simply doesn't exist in the city center and if it did it would be better spent on more frequent DARTS.

This is Irish Rails equivalent of Ryanair Atlantic or charging for using the toilets. Something that will never happen, but they mention from time to time to get some free press.

stillalive88

bk wrote: »

How would it be useful?

At the moment you get the train to Hueston and then get on the 747 bus from there direct to the airport.

With this, you would need to drag your bags on the Luas to Connolly, then up the stairs and onto a Dart, then change onto another Dart at Howth junction to the airport!!!

Pretty horrible and indirect and certainly slower!

Forget about them running Diesel trains direct to the airport, the capacity simply doesn't exist in the city center and if it did it would be better spent on more frequent DARTS.

This is Irish Rails equivalent of Ryanair Atlantic or charging for using the toilets. Something that will never happen, but they mention from time to time to get some free press.

Hum. I should have read more thoroughly. I thought it was just a matter of having a couple trains more... this nation is really lacking railroad-wise. I end up renting a car everytime I have to go somewhere as rent+fuel is actually cheaper and gets me where I want to go...

Lockheed

Why not just have a Dart station at the airport and have the cork/galway/belfast trains go to a larger station like Heuston?

foggy_lad

The biggest hurdle for Irish Rail is that Heuston station the biggest intercity station is not in the city centre and not linked directly with Connolly station so transit to the airport is always going to be awkward and involve buses and luas transfers.

EB_2013

They could open the Phoenix Park tunnel to link Heuston and Connolly although you'd probably still be quicker getting the airport bus direct from Heuston.

Peregrine

It's just a PR fight between IE and RPA to build a rail link to the airport, no matter how poor or half assed the project is.

We've been through over a decade of consultation and planning and the resulting proposal is Metro North (which already has planning permission(railway order)). It serves a huge section of North Dublin, DUB and Swords and interchanges with DART and Commuter lines at SSG and Drumcondra. It could also interchange with Intercity if it's run through DART Underground. It's the way to go, imo.

p

ozzy jr wrote: »

I would have thought Luas to airport would be the logical thing to do.

Trams are very slow. They're not suited for long distances really.

p

p wrote: »

Trams are very slow. They're not suited for long distances really.

I wouldn't call 70km/h slow, how fast do you think a commuter train will get to through Dart traffic etc ? Luas would be on its own dedicated line not sharing with Commuter, Intercity and Dart traffic.

Peregrine

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't call 70km/h slow, how fast do you think a commuter train will get to through Dart traffic etc ? Luas would be on its own dedicated line not sharing with Commuter, Intercity and Dart traffic.

It can't share with rail traffic anyway, it uses standard gauge tram tracks. MN would be similar.

And Luas would be at grade with road traffic for most of the journey. It's just not practical for a long distance such as this.

The_Wanderer

If the Airport line gets built in the style of a Manchester Airport operation then it will potentially radically change the face of Intercity rail travel in this country. A change to be welcomed.

Don't forget that Franks ran the old First North Western Trains franchise in the UK and Manchester Airport was a vital part of his operation. He has a vision and it's a good vision.

Nim

Nim wrote: »

It can't share with rail traffic anyway, it uses standard gauge tram tracks. MN would be similar.

And Luas would be at grade with road traffic for most of the journey. It's just not practical for a long distance such as this.

Long distance ? Are the red and green lines not longer ? I think one of the original proposals was for a Luas line with stops before Metro. I was simply pointing out a mainline train may not have been a faster journey than a Luas one.

Anyway I'm not saying I support Luas over mainline or Dart, I think the proposal was for a spur from Portmarnock direction.

billie1b

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Long distance ? Are the red and green lines not longer ? I think one of the original proposals was for a Luas line with stops before Metro. I was simply pointing out a mainline train may not have been a faster journey than a Luas one.

Anyway I'm not saying I support Luas over mainline or Dart, I think the proposal was for a spur from Portmarnock direction.

Red Line is 20km, Green Line is 16.5 klicks, I reckon from the city to the Airport wouldn't be much, 15km or less, throw it through the port tunnel from the point and its even less again

Peregrine

It's roughly the same distance as the Green line. The Green is completely segregated from road traffic from Harcourt to Sandyford with a few at grade junctions after that (it travels mostly on the old Harcourt Street railway alignment) and takes 40mins to travel end to end. A Luas on street through North Dublin would take 45-50 mins, if not more. When finished, SSG to just Broombridge will take 25 mins. That's slower than the buses and takes away precious space from the road. Waste of €700m, imo.

Metro North does it in less than 25 mins, much higher capacity, zero disruption to traffic once finished. Yes, it's expensive but it serves so many areas so well, it was never going to be a cheap.

donvito99

The point is segregation. A Metro is totally segregated. The Luas is not. A Luas with segregation, that runs partly underground and partly over it, to Swords, with slightly longer vehicles, at on average higher speeds - thanks again to segregation and greater spacing between stops - is called Metro North.

Peregrine

Yeah, Metro North is just Luas on steroids running mostly underground.

Metro North went through decades of consulation and planning and got a railway order but got delayed during the crash. So, Irish Rail took the chance and started pushing their own alternatives, RPA reacted by coming up with cheaper solutions that serves less people. Neither seemed to care as long as their 'airport link' goes ahead.

Now, both parties come up with a more ridiculous proposal every two months and journalists fawn over it every time.

Tedddy

The Dart spur is a vanity project for IE. Metro North serves not just the airport but the northside of the city and Fingal which is expected to experience high population growth in the years to come.

Calina

DART spur has been proposed several times. I don't think it's the most sensible solution to the problem but then, given that we're considering BRT from Swords as well, it seems to me that sense is not the requirement in making these decisions

My view though is that we've made some decisions in the past that are now biting us. Dublin Airport really is not well positioned from the point of view of public transport. In an ideal world - and most other major capital airports have managed this - it would be located somewhere that would make it viable to connect with intercity services leaving the airport directly. Building T2 instead of having the guts to relocate the airport means there will never be a decent sensible public transport option; purely a least worst.

Given that, I'd prefer Metro North as a solution.

Savman

Calina wrote: »

My view though is that we've made some decisions in the past that are now biting us. Dublin Airport really is not well positioned from the point of view of public transport. In an ideal world - and most other major capital airports have managed this - it would be located somewhere that would make it viable to connect with intercity services leaving the airport directly.

I disagree. It's on the coast (like many airports) barely 8km from a major train line and roughly 12km to the centre of the City. Yet we can build motorways all over the country covering vast distances and dig a tunnel under the City to the Port.

Seems the problem is political more than logistical.

Pat Dunne

Calina wrote: »

My view though is that we've made some decisions in the past that are now biting us. Dublin Airport really is not well positioned from the point of view of public transport. In an ideal world - and most other major capital airports have managed this - it would be located somewhere that would make it viable to connect with intercity services leaving the airport directly. Building T2 instead of having the guts to relocate the airport means there will never be a decent sensible public transport option; purely a least worst.

Where exactly would you have repositioned Dublin Airport?

Rawr

Calina wrote: »

DART spur has been proposed several times. I don't think it's the most sensible solution to the problem but then, given that we're considering BRT from Swords as well, it seems to me that sense is not the requirement in making these decisions

My view though is that we've made some decisions in the past that are now biting us. Dublin Airport really is not well positioned from the point of view of public transport. In an ideal world - and most other major capital airports have managed this - it would be located somewhere that would make it viable to connect with intercity services leaving the airport directly. Building T2 instead of having the guts to relocate the airport means there will never be a decent sensible public transport option; purely a least worst.

Given that, I'd prefer Metro North as a solution.

Over here in Oslo, the main airport is about 50 km away from the city. To make up for that distance, they've routed all north-bound main-line and intercity trains via the airport itself with a newly upgraded express corridor. Seems to work very well, and the airport seems to double as a transport hub for the entire area.

Instead of just a DART spur to the airport, I've always felt that IR should instead develop this as an alternative Intercity / Airport Express line. Once the spur reaches DUB, it should go under the airport via tunnel and have an underground station between T1 and T2. It should then proceed north and rejoin the existing Belfast line somewhere north of Swords.

Enterprise, some Commuter services and a specially designated Airport Express could operate on such a line. (I feel that having an 'Airport Express' simplifies things for visitors who are not familiar with local transport options. Would just require a regular train with airport stickers all over it ) The Airport Express could run between DUB and Connolly, and if the DART Underground was ever built it could run between DUB and Heuston via Stephens Green.

I feel that this might make rail travel to/from DUB more attractive...although they would still need to possibility do something with the line between Howth Junction and Connolly to handle more trains.

bk

Rawr what you are suggesting would costs billions and for almost little or no benefit!

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I can assure you many people from Cork, Galway, etc. are using Dublin Airport. They simply jump on the Aircoach and 3h30mins they are dropped off at the door of Dublin Airport for a 1/4 of the cost of a train ticket!

There really is no need for crazy billion euro pie in the sky rail projects.

As for Dublin Airports location being bad!! On the contrary you almost couldn't ask for a better location.

- Dublin Airport is relatively very close to the city at 12km, by comparison Heathrow is 40km
- This means taxis are pretty fast to the city and relatively cheap
- Buses to the airport are also extremely fast and reliable to the airport as they use the port tunnel.
- However the airport is just far enough out from the city that it has plenty of empty land around it so it can easily expand.
- And it being close to the coast means most flights come in over the coast, thus reducing noise to people living in the city.

You literally couldn't choice a better location for an airport for Dublin.

Also people are forgetting that Metro North isn't just heading to the airport. The airport is probably one of the least important goals of Metro North, a nice to have at best. No MN is more about brining high quality rail based public transport to the north side of Dublin city. An area of the city that is the most densly populated and which currently has no rail based public transport! And it is also about brining quality rail based transport to Swords, a massive commuter town, which is the 6th largest population in Ireland, higher then any Irish town and yet it has zero rail based transport. Madness!

Metro North is designed to fix all these issues and we just need to do it. Lets stop trying to do half arsed insufficent solutions. Dublin needs high quality public transport infrastructure.

Calina

bk wrote: »

Rawr what you are suggesting would costs billions and for almost little or no benefit!

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I can assure you many people from Cork, Galway, etc. are using Dublin Airport. They simply jump on the Aircoach and 3h30mins they are dropped off at the door of Dublin Airport for a 1/4 of the cost of a train ticket!

Most of the people I know from Cork who find themselves needing an extra segment will fly via AMS or LHR.

bk wrote: »

There really is no need for crazy billion euro pie in the sky rail projects.

In principle, I'd agree with it, mainly because the time for them was when they weren't going to cost crazy billions to fix.

The airport in Frankfurt is 10 minutes by S-Bahn from the city centre. Dublin doesn't even come close in terms of convenience.

bk wrote: »

As for Dublin Airports location being bad!! On the contrary you almost couldn't ask for a better location.

- Dublin Airport is relatively very close to the city at 12km, by comparison Heathrow is 40km

But, you can get to the centre of London in 15 minutes from LHR via public transport by train. You cannot do this in Dublin.

bk wrote: »

- This means taxis are pretty fast to the city and relatively cheap

I'm not sure I'd agree with the "relatively cheap" given the distances they have to cover.

bk wrote: »

- Buses to the airport are also extremely fast and reliable to the airport as they use the port tunnel.

I used to work at the airport. Despite the existence of several options, and despite the tunnel, I'd still not rely on them.

bk wrote: »

- However the airport is just far enough out from the city that it has plenty of empty land around it so it can easily expand.

It's bounded by the M1 to one side, and the M50 on another side with a lot of residential on the other side.

bk wrote: »

- And it being close to the coast means most flights come in over the coast, thus reducing noise to people living in the city.

But annoying the hell out of the people living in Portmarnock.

bk wrote: »

You literally couldn't choice a better location for an airport for Dublin.

I dispute that. I'd have preferred a site further to the south west, outside the M50. Unfortunately, we built a bloody huge number of houses there.

bk wrote: »

Also people are forgetting that Metro North isn't just heading to the airport. The airport is probably one of the least important goals of Metro North, a nice to have at best. No MN is more about brining high quality rail based public transport to the north side of Dublin city. An area of the city that is the most densly populated and which currently has no rail based public transport!

This is nonsense. The DART covers some swathes of the north side and local rail covers some other parts. I agree in principle that Metro North is necessary but the routing as proposed the last time was twisted.

bk wrote: »

And it is also about brining quality rail based transport to Swords, a massive commuter town, which is the 6th largest population in Ireland, higher then any Irish town and yet it has zero rail based transport. Madness!

Yes, and I used to live in Swords as well. AFAIR, Metro North served very, very little of the housing estates in Swords.

bk wrote: »

Metro North is designed to fix all these issues and we just need to do it. Lets stop trying to do half arsed insufficent solutions. Dublin needs high quality public transport infrastructure.

Dublin needs high quality public transport but this is not an argument in favour of the Irish Rail proposal which, like a lot of things in this country, is a quick and dirty solution of the "how little can we get away with" variety. Nor is it an argument in favour of the location of Dublin Airport.

Dublin Airport, imo, is in the wrong place. It could be a little further out in a location that would be more integral with large scale long distance public transport. However, I know now that this is never going to happen because a) we built terminal 2 and b) we built Adamstown and quite a lot of Lucan.

I'd also like to note, by the way, that Metro North isn't even close to being implemented given that our transport authorities have voiced a desire to build a BRT between Swords and the city first.

bk

Calina wrote: »

Most of the people I know from Cork who find themselves needing an extra segment will fly via AMS or LHR.

For business travellers yes. But for leisure travellers like most of my family and friends from Cork going on a two week summer holiday. Then Aircoach for €25 return is much cheaper and better value for money.

Calina wrote: »

The airport in Frankfurt is 10 minutes by S-Bahn from the city centre. Dublin doesn't even come close in terms of convenience.

But, you can get to the centre of London in 15 minutes from LHR via public transport by train. You cannot do this in Dublin.

I'm not sure I'd agree with the "relatively cheap" given the distances they have to cover.

Heathrow Express is only every 15 minutes, so depending on when you arrive, you are talking between 15 minutes and 30 minutes and it costs €35!

As a comparison, according to the NTA's taxi fare calculator, the journey time is between 15 and 27 minutes and the cost between €15 and €20

So about the same journey time, half the price and you get your own taxi that takes you right to the door of your hotel rather then slumming it on a train that doesn't end up taking you to your final destination.

Dublin Aiport is far superior location. Having your own taxi even beats Berlins S-Bahn, though I do admit S-Bahn is better for back packers, etc. on a budget But again the Aircoach and 747 via the tunnel are very good options too for such people and even the 16 isn't so bad.

Calina wrote: »

But annoying the hell out of the people living in Portmarnock.

The vast majority of which moved there years after the airport was built and knew perfectly well it was there.

An airport to the South West would be far noisier to Dublin in general.

Honestly I don't see a single logical reason why building an airport in the south west would be better. It just sounds like south side snobbishness about not wanting to go to the north side to me!

Calina wrote: »

This is nonsense. The DART covers some swathes of the north side and local rail covers some other parts. I agree in principle that Metro North is necessary but the routing as proposed the last time was twisted.

It only covers the coast. While the south side has two Luas lines in addition to Dart.

Calina wrote: »

Yes, and I used to live in Swords as well. AFAIR, Metro North served very, very little of the housing estates in Swords.

What?!! It will have 4 stations going right through the center of Swords!!

Of course it can't cover every single estate, Swords is far too spread out for that.

But that is why you build park & ride facilities at the stations and well integrated local bus services to serve those estates.

Reoil

This would be a good thing for Belfast.
We only have one airline flying to the USA and even they are stopping this for several months of the year.
Leaving the car at home and sitting on a comfortable Enterprise train would be great.

Idbatterim

say MN is built, can I get from say dundrum on luas green line without any interchanges and not get off at the airport?

Peregrine

Idbatterim wrote: »

say MN is built, can I get from say dundrum on luas green line without any interchanges and not get off at the airport?

No, you have to interchange at Stephen's Green. The line is planned to have 5 minute headways initially, ultimately decreasing to 2 minute headways with demand so the interchange won't take long.

You could interchange at O'Connell Street or Parnell Square too but the less time you spend on ground on a Luas in the city centre, the quicker the journey.

Idbatterim

why not link the lines with MN instead of BXD and simply have the luas go underground at Stephens Green and continue on out to the airport and swords?

Victor

bk wrote: »

An airport to the South West would be far noisier to Dublin in general.

Agreed.

What?!! It will have 4 stations going right through the center of Swords!!

No, it is planned to go along the byspass. Not so much use to the residents of Applewood or Brackenstown.

Long Time Lurker

http://www.gizmag.com/go/6634/

Solves all. Relatively little infrastructure needed to be put in place compared to trams or rail. Perfectly suited to the wider streetscape of North side Dublin and very cost effective compared to the larger projects. Easily run through Dublin Airport from Swords via Santry Ballymun and DCU to the city. Could even be designated as an Airport Direct service despite chugging on a couple more miles to Swords.

Oh and very simply run directly past Busaras to Heuston station by simply driving along the same route that the Luas currently takes along Abbey St and Smithfield. The lines are all recessed into the street there so its not a problem.

SpaceTime

They would need to build a TGV line to Cork to make this attractive. That's never going to happen due to lack of population densities at both ends.

Ireland just isn't big enough to warrant that level of rail investment and the cities are car dependent and sprawling. It's not going to make sense.

It's not going to happen so it'll be at best 2:15 from Cork to Heuston and 30-40 min to Dublin Airport.

It's just a spur from the DART line. It's more important that it serves Swords to be honest and connects Dublin's transit "network" to the airport.

They might grab some Northern Irish passengers though if an Intercity or a Enterprise train could call at Dublin Airport.

donvito99

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Relatively little infrastructure needed to be put in place compared to trams or rail

That's the issue. Infrastructure to me (in this context) means segregation, off-street, totally independent of other modes, dedicated. This is costly, but it ensures that it is effective.

BRT is just piling more vehicles upon Dublin's infrastructure which at present can't handle traffic. So called 'quality' bus corridors are nothing more than widening and some thicker lines, so let's call a spade a shovel and accept that BRT can't replace Luas, or Metro or Dart, but would improve the on-street bus system to no end. It should complement segregated light and heavy rail.

Mc Love

Will IR be footing the bill for this project or expecting the govt to stump up the cash. If the latter is the case, there are other projects that need that money than a useless rail link between the city and the airport.

Peregrine

And this is why we'll never get a decent public transport system.

Mc Love wrote: »

Will IR be footing the bill for this project or expecting the govt to stump up the cash. If the latter is the case, there are other projects that need that money than a useless rail link between the city and the airport.

Mc Love

Nim wrote: »

And this is why we'll never get a decent public transport system.

Are you talking for Dublin or the rest of the country??

Calina

Nim wrote: »

And this is why we'll never get a decent public transport system.

Irish Rail's proposal, in my view, does not constitute a decent public transport system. It constitutes a cheapskate version, without looking at other spatial needs in Dublin.

I have no objection to paying for public transport infrastructure investment. I even recognise that the urban sprawl nature of Dublin and general low density in the metro area means that it will be more expensive. But we might as well do a decent integrated system rather than doing piecemeal bits here and there when it's politically palatable to take piecemeal decisions.

Peregrine

Calina wrote: »

Irish Rail's proposal, in my view, does not constitute a decent public transport system. It constitutes a cheapskate version, without looking at other spatial needs in Dublin.

I agree. It's just the public sentiment against spending money on infrastructure that I hate.

bk

Calina wrote: »

I even recognise that the urban sprawl nature of Dublin and general low density in the metro area means that it will be more expensive.

This bugs me that so many people think this, but it actually isn't true, Dublin is actually quite densely populated for a European city!

For instance it barely falls short of Amsterdam (4,908/km2 vs 4,588/km2).

Yes Amsterdam with it amazing cycling and public transport infrastructure (trams, buses and metro all fully integrated).

Dublin has about the same population density of many European cities that have far better public transport (e.g. Amsterdam,Rotterdam, Hamburg, Hannover, Helsinki, Cologne, Dresden, Antwerp).

Basically Dublin is your average European city, but without the public transport infrastructure of such a city.