2015 National Reserve question.

Ecrin

Hi all,
I am a first time poster here but have looked in on the forum for the last year or two. Am always impressed by the breadth of knowledge shown by various posters.Basically I have a question in relation to the 2015 National Reserve (Young Farmer/New Entrant Scheme).
I am a 39 year old Primary School teacher and my gross income is circa 58,000 euro a year.Am I correct in thinking this would automatically preclude me from having any chance of availing of either the Young Farmer or New entrants schemes as my gross off farm income exceeds 40,000 euro?.
I have the Green Cert done and farm with my father on a suckling farm but he hasn't passed the reins or land over to me yet:)....I do not have a Herd number yet.
thanks for any replies,
Ecrin.

Miname

Yeh you won't get any entitlements or top afaik. With 58 k and good long holidays I'd say you'll be alright

AP2014

Ecrin wrote: »

Hi all,
I am a first time poster here but have looked in on the forum for the last year or two. Am always impressed by the breadth of knowledge shown by various posters.Basically I have a question in relation to the 2015 National Reserve (Young Farmer/New Entrant Scheme).
I am a 39 year old Primary School teacher and my gross income is circa 58,000 euro a year.Am I correct in thinking this would automatically preclude me from having any chance of availing of either the Young Farmer or New entrants schemes as my gross off farm income exceeds 40,000 euro?.
I have the Green Cert done and farm with my father on a suckling farm but he hasn't passed the reins or land over to me yet:)....I do not have a Herd number yet.
thanks for any replies,
Ecrin.

Jaysus ya shouldn't have mentioned 58k and primary school teacher. Ya will have a few moaners on here about your hols. Unfort I don't think you quality despite holding down a stressful job and farming. I would get a herd no in your name anyway fairly soon.

johnno900

Ecrin,
You won't qualify for the National Reserve as a young farmer due to the income issue. However, you do qualify for the Young Farmer Top Up Scheme - obviously to get a top up, you'll need your father's entitements to top up on. See the terms and conditions for both schemes on the departments news page.
John

LivInt20

You won't be entitled to apply to National Reserve due to income limit.

You may be entitled to apply to the Young Farmers Scheme.

You will need to transfer herd number, land and entitlements.

Seek professional advice. Taxes are major area to look out for.

just do it

You married? Your wife might be entitled to apply for entitlements if her income is less that the magic figure . She'd have to lease the land of course...

Ecrin

johnno900 wrote: »

Ecrin,
You won't qualify for the National Reserve as a young farmer due to the income issue. However, you do qualify for the Young Farmer Top Up Scheme - obviously to get a top up, you'll need your father's entitements to top up on. See the terms and conditions for both schemes on the departments news page.
John

Thanks John,I think it states a 40 k income limit on young Farmer top up also:(

Ecrin

AP2014 wrote: »

Jaysus ya shouldn't have mentioned 58k and primary school teacher. Ya will have a few moaners on here about your hols. Unfort I don't think you quality despite holding down a stressful job and farming. I would get a herd no in your name anyway fairly soon.

Tbh I put in my age and income as they are relevant to meet the criteria for the schemes,just put in occupation,not really relevant ....as I do say to people who reckon teachers have a handy number,we are preparing the next generation for their future,and deal with all their associated issues every day.

Muckit

Ecrin wrote: »

Thanks John,I think it states a 40 k income limit on young Farmer top up also:(

I think you are incorrect here. No income limit on this.

kevthegaff

Im farming 7 years, im 32. I have 15 acres with no entitlements(the rest of the land does), do I qualify for any of the schemes? Have the green cert and herd number

LivInt20

kevthegaff wrote: »

Im farming 7 years, im 32. I have 15 acres with no entitlements(the rest of the land does), do I qualify for any of the schemes? Have the green cert and herd number

You may qualify for national reserve.

Nettleman

Id ring them, Telephone: 0761 064438
I did, and they explained it all very well-(not the answers I had hoped for but, precise, detailed and ended my worrying & speculation).
if first person you speak with isn't helpful, ask for a manager.

Ecrin

Muckit wrote: »

I think you are incorrect here. No income limit on this.

Thanks Muckit,looked it up,you are right,probably handiest thing to do in my case would be to set up a partnership with the Father before May 15th....that way he needn't feel rushed into transferring Land ,entitlements etc in a rushed way before May 15th 2015.
Thanks to all for the advice.

Ecrin

Nettleman wrote: »

Id ring them, Telephone: 0761 064438
I did, and they explained it all very well-(not the answers I had hoped for but, precise, detailed and ended my worrying & speculation).
if first person you speak with isn't helpful, ask for a manager.

Thanks,rang this number today,will outline response in next post.

Ecrin

So from first post ye know my situation, after chatting my Dad he is happy enough to go ahead with full transfer of relevant entitlements,herd no, and portion of land to me this year(I have siblings).
He said to check out whether I was eligible for Young Farmers 25% Top Up scheme or not as with May 15th deadline time is passing.
So took Nettlemans advice and rang 0761 064438 ... Was Direct payments line, got a nice man on the line,outlined that I was 39,Salary over 40k gross,had Green Cert done, not holder of a herd no yet,farming part time on my dads farm.......asked if I was eligible for entry to Young Farmers top up scheme?......he said yes I was and that first thing I needed to do was to sort herd no by either applying for my own or going on it with my Dad.I asked if I could apply to DVO to change name on Herd no( as I knew my Dad is ok with that plan)... He said yes and that doesn't take too long.Finally I asked him if part Time farmers could apply for young Farmers Scheme....he paused on phone and said he wasn't sure.Gave me number of specific Dept helpline for Schemes 0761 064446 as they would know for sure.
So rang and got another helpful lady there,she confirmed that part time farmers with off farm income over 40k ARE eligible to apply for top up Scheme.So I was happy with that.
Called into the parents there an hour ago to be told by the Father that he had rang our accountant( an experienced professional) and our local Teagasc advisor and they both said I was NOT eligible for Young Farmers top up scheme....as both it and the National Reserve Scheme are linked by the 40 k income limit criteria which knock me out.
So short of getting Simon Coveneys number who will I contact???
A poor effort when the Dept of Agri are giving conflicting answer to a Teagasc advisor on a straightforward Scheme eligibility question.

LivInt20

Ecrin wrote: »

So from first post ye know my situation, after chatting my Dad he is happy enough to go ahead with full transfer of relevant entitlements,herd no, and portion of land to me this year(I have siblings).
He said to check out whether I was eligible for Young Farmers 25% Top Up scheme or not as with May 15th deadline time is passing.
So took Nettlemans advice and rang 0761 064438 ... Was Direct payments line, got a nice man on the line,outlined that I was 39,Salary over 40k gross,had Green Cert done, not holder of a herd no yet,farming part time on my dads farm.......asked if I was eligible for entry to Young Farmers top up scheme?......he said yes I was and that first thing I needed to do was to sort herd no by either applying for my own or going on it with my Dad.I asked if I could apply to DVO to change name on Herd no( as I knew my Dad is ok with that plan)... He said yes and that doesn't take too long.Finally I asked him if part Time farmers could apply for young Farmers Scheme....he paused on phone and said he wasn't sure.Gave me number of specific Dept helpline for Schemes 0761 064446 as they would know for sure.
So rang and got another helpful lady there,she confirmed that part time farmers with off farm income over 40k ARE eligible to apply for top up Scheme.So I was happy with that.
Called into the parents there an hour ago to be told by the Father that he had rang our accountant( an experienced professional) and our local Teagasc advisor and they both said I was NOT eligible for Young Farmers top up scheme....as both it and the National Reserve Scheme are linked by the 40 k income limit criteria which knock me out.
So short of getting Simon Coveneys number who will I contact???
A poor effort when the Dept of Agri are giving conflicting answer to a Teagasc advisor on a straightforward Scheme eligibility question.

Ok you are confused. Too many people talking about too many different schemes.

1. Young Farmers Top up.
2. National Reserve Young Farmers.
3. National Reserve.

40k limit applies to 2 and 3

No income limit for Young Farmers Top up. This is going to be about €64 per ha.

Can apply online now for National Reserve or National Reserve Young Farmers Scheme.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/national-reserve-and-young-farmers-scheme-172928/

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/nationalreserveandyfs/

johnno900

Ecrin, since my first post, you're going on a wild goose chase! It's as simple as this, read the departments terms and conditions and you'll see that there are two distinct options:
1. Young Farmer's Scheme (Top up scheme) and
2. National Reserve;
2.1 Within the National Reserve scheme there are two options; a new entrant or a young farmer (the young farmer criteria for the national reserve has the 40k income cap, people are getting it mixed up with 1. above, the young farmers top up scheme.

Read the terms and conditions again, treating each bold heading as a separate scheme, which they are. agriculture.gov.ie/nationalreserveandyfs/

The Dept of Ag is correct, your accountant and Teagasc adviser are not yet fully up to speed, they need to read the t&c's again.

Start your quest to join your Dad's herd number now!!!

I've to wait until 2016 based on uncle'd request!

Ecrin

johnno900 wrote: »

Ecrin, since my first post, you're going on a wild goose chase! It's as simple as this, read the departments terms and conditions and you'll see that there are two distinct options:
1. Young Farmer's Scheme (Top up scheme) and
2. National Reserve;
2.1 Within the National Reserve scheme there are two options; a new entrant or a young farmer (the young farmer criteria for the national reserve has the 40k income cap, people are getting it mixed up with 1. above, the young farmers top up scheme.

Read the terms and conditions again, treating each bold heading as a separate scheme, which they are. agriculture.gov.ie/nationalreserveandyfs/

The Dept of Ag is correct, your accountant and Teagasc adviser are not yet fully up to speed, they need to read the t&c's again.

Start your quest to join your Dad's herd number now!!!

I've to wait until 2016 based on uncle'd request!

Thanks....tbh Having read Dept site I was quite happy I was eligible for 'Top Up' Scheme....but said I would phone to check...and was happy with Depts answer...panic set in when the Father told me the bad news on it he had got from two normally reliable sources,
Thanks for reply....will contact DVO next to see timescale to transfer herd no to me.

Farrell

Out of curiosity how much will the National Reserve entitlements be worth?
For people above the threshold it could work out better in the long run to purchase next year when trading starts

Username John

Farrell wrote: »

Out of curiosity how much will the National Reserve entitlements be worth?
For people above the threshold it could work out better in the long run to purchase next year when trading starts

Could get very interesting when trading starts next year, as I think the need for land to put the entitlements will be gone?
So will anyone be able to trade in entitlements?

Farrell

Username John wrote: »

Could get very interesting when trading starts next year, as I think the need for land to put the entitlements will be gone?
So will anyone be able to trade in entitlements?

I'm thinking that way, thought I heard it's use or lose (ie 12 entitlements & only farmed 10Ha that year means 2 lost to reserve going forward).
Remember when I was small my father hiring headage quota from a Solicitors in Cork, if business people do buy they'd want to make it beneficial to the farmer to hire.

Username John

Farrell wrote: »

I'm thinking that way, thought I heard it's use or lose (ie 12 entitlements & only farmed 10Ha that year means 2 lost to reserve going forward).
Remember when I was small my father hiring headage quota from a Solicitors in Cork, if business people do buy they'd want to make it beneficial to the farmer to hire.

I don't get you 'beneficial to the farmer to hire'?
Also - re the use or lose - if they aren't tied to land, then how can you lose?

ihatewinter

What in bloody hell do that come from, the ability to trade and utilise entitlements without land. I thought the purpose of the SFP and BPS was to subsidise farmers to keep produce costs low for consumers and to top up farming incomes

The likes of the IFA and other agricultural organisations should be doing more to stop this stupid system being introduced.

So basically a builder/solicitor could buy 100 entitlements and draw payments by filling up their BPS Application, while the poor farmers with 40 hectares/entitlements will have to adhere to all conditions of cross compliance.

Username John

ihatewinter wrote: »

What in bloody hell do that come from, the ability to trade and utilise entitlements without land. I thought the purpose of the SFP and BPS was to subsidise farmers to keep produce costs low for consumers and to top up farming incomes

The likes of the IFA and other agricultural organisations should be doing more to stop this stupid system being introduced.

So basically a builder/solicitor could buy 100 entitlements and draw payments by filling up their BPS Application, while the poor farmers with 40 hectares/entitlements will have to adhere to all conditions of cross compliance.

I don't know the details, I don't know if they are available yet.

But *I thought* that in 2016, the link to having ha to put entitlements on was gone.

But I dont know how that would work in practice. Or whether entitlements would become true commodities open to everyone, I dunno....

Nettleman

Lad was telling me at mart last week he rang up National Reserve in Portloais to see if his application was received ok and all was in order, and when would he hear back?.
They refused to answer any of those questions, not even to tell him his form was filled in correctly. If done on the internet, surely they will see it straight away !You'd think with it being so important, the least they could do is confirm, Yes, all is in order, and you will hear DD of MM month. Put the poor mans head at ease, I told him to ring his Farm organisation or advisor about it

Username John

Nettleman wrote: »

Lad was telling me at mart last week he rang up National Reserve in Portloais to see if his application was received ok and all was in order, and when would he hear back?.
They refused to answer any of those questions, not even to tell him his form was filled in correctly. If done on the internet, surely they will see it straight away !You'd think with it being so important, the least they could do is confirm, Yes, all is in order, and you will hear DD of MM month. Put the poor mans head at ease, I told him to ring his Farm organisation or advisor about it

They could have told him that they got it, and it's 'in the system'

But as for any errors, I dunno - I can see the other aide too, where they can't have people ringing em up every day to make changes to a form they filled online...

Henwin

sorry lads, im finding it difficult to find the application form for the young farmer scheme.i clicked the link have the page open with national reserve and young farmers scheme, clicked on it, entered my password etc, but cant find the form to fill in, where am i going wrong.

saranac1

I'm an old young farmer started in 2009, have herd number and green cert and income under 40,000. If I just apply to all 3 schemes and see what happens, is that the best option or wait for news on Brussels hopefully doing something for " old young farmers"

Farrell

Username John wrote: »

I don't get you 'beneficial to the farmer to hire'?
Also - re the use or lose - if they aren't tied to land, then how can you lose?

Reports I'm told is
If A has 10 HA & no entitlements & B is dropping 10 Ha this year as owner is going to plant, then A could hire/ lease Bs entitlements.
Alternatively if B's entitlements are not used then the 10 are lost to the reserve.

brainbox

I read this article online today in the farmers journal;
young-farmers-access-topups-through-parents-herd-number-173778/
Is this as straight forward as i read. In my position im currently in the middle of a Level 8 agriculture degree. I do a hell a lot of work on the farm. Is it just a matter or putting my name on my fathers herd number??
I dont have to have any land in my name??
Is there a max cut off of entitlements my father can have?
Then is there tax implications - name on bank account would you have to form a partnership all that?
Anyone able to shed some light on this?

LivInt20

brainbox wrote: »

I read this article online today in the farmers journal;
young-farmers-access-topups-through-parents-herd-number-173778/
Is this as straight forward as i read. In my position im currently in the middle of a Level 8 agriculture degree. I do a hell a lot of work on the farm. Is it just a matter or putting my name on my fathers herd number??
I dont have to have any land in my name??
Is there a max cut off of entitlements my father can have?
Then is there tax implications - name on bank account would you have to form a partnership all that?
Anyone able to shed some light on this?

Putting your name on the herd number is ok and you will be entitled to Basic Payment top up.

No word from revenue yet as to how this affects income tax. (My guess is that Revenue will consider this a partnership).

If just a joint herd number income limit applies to Young Farmers National Reserve scheme. If partnership only young farmers income applies.

patrickn

ihatewinter wrote: »

What in bloody hell do that come from, the ability to trade and utilise entitlements without land. I thought the purpose of the SFP and BPS was to subsidise farmers to keep produce costs low for consumers and to top up farming incomes

The likes of the IFA and other agricultural organisations should be doing more to stop this stupid system being introduced.

So basically a builder/solicitor could buy 100 entitlements and draw payments by filling up their BPS Application, while the poor farmers with 40 hectares/entitlements will have to adhere to all conditions of cross compliance.

In 2015 the only entitlements that can be traded must be accompanied with a lease or transfer of land ie 10 entitlements requires the 10 HA they were attatched to be transferred. From 2016 on entitlements are free to be sold without land but the person buying them must have enough land to draw down the money. 10 entitlements traded must have 10 HA. available for full drawdown.

Ecrin

Have started the wheels in motion on getting herd no put into my name alone,have form sent back to Dept as Teagasc advisor reckons there will be a big surge in activity in April.Next step is to get land valued prior to transfer ,I see several people wondering about possible tax implications for young farmers joining a herd no before May 15th cutoff on some other recent threads.
In my situation where portion of land,that lands entitlements (+25% top up I will be availing of on same acreage) and farm buildings etc will be transferred by my Father before May 15th shouldn't any tax implications be negated by the whole agricultural relief and gift tax write off for land transfer?....thanks for any replies.

LivInt20

Ecrin wrote: »

Have started the wheels in motion on getting herd no put into my name alone,have form sent back to Dept as Teagasc advisor reckons there will be a big surge in activity in April.Next step is to get land valued prior to transfer ,I see several people wondering about possible tax implications for young farmers joining a herd no before May 15th cutoff on some other recent threads.
In my situation where portion of land,that lands entitlements (+25% top up I will be availing of on same acreage) and farm buildings etc will be transferred by my Father before May 15th shouldn't any tax implications be negated by the whole agricultural relief and gift tax write off for land transfer?....thanks for any replies.

All depends on the value and any other assets you have.

There are a number of conditions to be met in order to claim agricultural relief.

You also need to consider Stamp Duty and Capital Gains Tax for the person transferring the assets.

Even if you are entitled to Agricultural Relief from CAT you still need to make a return to Revenue.

Seek professional accountancy advice before completing this transaction. There are various taxes and returns you need to consider.

jfh

lads this might have been answered before,
just say my father is transferring over 20 ha to me without entitlements & i'm applying as a young farmer for new entitlements is there an issue here?

i know his entitlements would drop due to convergence over the 5 years but now i think he would have to transfer the entitlements on the 20 ha also.
any feedback welcome

smokey-fitz

jfh wrote: »

lads this might have been answered before,
just say my father is transferring over 20 ha to me without entitlements & i'm applying as a young farmer for new entitlements is there an issue here?

i know his entitlements would drop due to convergence over the 5 years but now i think he would have to transfer the entitlements on the 20 ha also.
any feedback welcome

Read page 9 on last weeks ifj, explains things well plus its from the head lady in the department.

Irishmale

Is applying to the National Reserve a one time deal? Can you apply this year then again in a couple of years?

I answer other peoples questions too sometimes


thanks

rangler1

jfh wrote: »

lads this might have been answered before,
just say my father is transferring over 20 ha to me without entitlements & i'm applying as a young farmer for new entitlements is there an issue here?

i know his entitlements would drop due to convergence over the 5 years but now i think he would have to transfer the entitlements on the 20 ha also.
any feedback welcome

This situation has now being flagged to advisors by the department, and they're being warned that each case has to be genuine. Like the installation aid, I know applicants who haven't the slightest intention of faming, but their parents see it as a way of increasing SFP

mauser77

Irishmale wrote: »

Is applying to the National Reserve a one time deal? Can you apply this year then again in a couple of years?

I answer other peoples questions too sometimes


thanks

One time deal so make it count the first time

jfh

rangler1 wrote: »

This situation has now being flagged to advisors by the department, and they're being warned that each case has to be genuine. Like the installation aid, I know applicants who haven't the slightest intention of faming, but their parents see it as a way of increasing SFP

far enough if it's a case of people taking advantage, but what if it's a genuine case? only one way to find out, i'll report back

Toplink

I am going into partnership with my parents. Whats the process of getting a partnership number?

Is there a form available for this?

Is the partnership number needed as part of the BPS application?


Thanks in advance.