Milan at work V ISIS LTAV

cameramonkey

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=723_1421956190

Pretty devastating use of anti tank missiles against Light Tactical Armoured Vehicle. dont know what the vehicles are maybe ex-Iraq army US equipment.

Show what a relatively well equipped and trained unit can do against a ISIS, maybe shows that ISIS are not the danger they are made out to be.

cruasder777

ISIS are not a conventional army, they are embedded in the population, its a different type of warfare.

More similar to NI, then conventional warfare. They will take years to defeat.

cameramonkey

cruasder777 wrote: »

ISIS are not a conventional army, they are embedded in the population, its a different type of warfare.

More similar to NI, then conventional warfare. They will take years to defeat.

Dont think you can compare the two situations. IRA were pretty much home grown and had a lot of support in certain areas. ISIS seem to have a lot of foreign fighters and seem to want to get involved in stand up fights unlike the IRA. I cannot see ISIS sustaining popular support with the stuff they do to the local populations.

cruasder777

cameramonkey wrote: »

Dont think you can compare the two situations. IRA were pretty much home grown and had a lot of support in certain areas. ISIS seem to have a lot of foreign fighters and seem to want to get involved in stand up fights unlike the IRA. I cannot see ISIS sustaining popular support with the stuff they do to the local populations.

Yes, but they are Sunni Muslim, like the population, extreme Islam does not recognise nationality.

They wont get involved in a stand up fight against superior forces, they will blend in, same as the Iraqi militia's did.

They are simply living by Sharia law. They obviously have significant local support.

sparky42

cruasder777 wrote: »

Yes, but they are Sunni Muslim, like the population, extreme Islam does not recognise nationality.

They wont get involved in a stand up fight against superior forces, they will blend in, same as the Iraqi militia's did.

They are simply living by Sharia law. They obviously have significant local support.

True but if they've fortified Mosul, to the scale of Fallujah , then it has the potential to be bloody as hell for the forces trying to get them out of the city.

AbusesToilets

That was great work, especially liked the hit on the second vehicle. Good drills

cruasder777

sparky42 wrote: »

True but if they've fortified Mosul, to the scale of Fallujah , then it has the potential to be bloody as hell for the forces trying to get them out of the city.

I would love to see the west put boots on the ground and wipe ISIS out, but remember, there are strict rules of war nowdays.

It would be like the Iraq war again, they would blend in and commit suicide bombings etc. Or cross into Syria.

And what would the exit strategy be ? what would stop them taking over again after western forces left?

Its complicated.

Modern western humanitarian politics which is not imperial, seems incapable of dealing with these situations.

IMO, every one of the feckers should be executed, but that does not answer, what fills the vacuum ?

Isis II ? The simple reality is ISIS represent an Islam in an undiluted form..

We have been lied to in the west and told it was a religion we can co-exist with, I don't think its possible.

bluecorp

I doubt if there's much popular support for IS among the Sunni population. They are exceptionally repressive making Saddam look like a nice guy. Once they're on the back foot they will get no protection from the locals.

They're unique among groups like that in that they have made enemies of virtually everyone in the region. Anyone who gets the Iranians and Americans on the same side doesn't have a long term future.

And Crusader, Islam has co existed alongside Christianity for hundreds of years with minimum friction. These extremists are doing nothing more than damaging Islam's reputation with their excesses. Plus the reality is that they are more of a threat to other Muslims than the rest of us.

Bear in mind the religion of the men in that video!

Looking at the video they clearly are militarily incompetent as well. Their only successes come against poorly trained, badly motivated fellow Arabs. When that MRAP? turned up trying to rescue their comrades there was only going to be one conclusion. Brave but stupid.

Arsemageddon

cruasder777 wrote: »

I would love to see the west put boots on the ground
and wipe ISIS out, but remember, there are strict rules of war nowdays.


It would be like the Iraq war again, they would blend in and commit suicide
bombings etc. Or cross into Syria.

And what would the exit strategy be ?
what would stop them taking over again after western forces left?

Its
complicated.

Modern western humanitarian politics which is not imperial,
seems incapable of dealing with these situations.

IMO, every one of the feckers should be executed, but that does not answer, what fills the vacuum ?

Maybe the west shouldn't keep interfering in the region. ISIS came into existence as an unintended consequence of the invasion of Iraq.

Isis II ? The simple reality is ISIS represent an Islam in an undiluted
form..

We have been lied to in the west and told it was a religion we can
co-exist with, I don't think its possible.

There are 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, ISIS make up a tiny portion of this number and represent a lunatic fringe. As you have already noted ISIS are despised by pretty much every country in the region. The people who are bearing the brunt of ISIS' savagery are Muslims and the people who are fighting them on the ground are Muslims. So why the need to tar all Muslims with the same brush?

bluecorp

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Maybe the west shouldn't keep interfering in the region. ISIS came into existence as an unintended consequence of the ?

BS this is same excuse you hear all the time. Exactly how slaughtering other Muslims is because of some imagined slight from western civilisation. Your comment is a classic example of trendy lefty wing western navel gazing. This is not about the West. It's about the balance of power in the Arabic world. Do some basic historical research.
We in the west are so effing arrogant we think everything revolves around us. It's racist and stupid. Muslims have their own history and priorities.

cruasder777

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Maybe the west shouldn't keep interfering in the region. ISIS came into existence as an unintended consequence of the invasion of Iraq.




There are 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, ISIS make up a tiny portion of this number and represent a lunatic fringe. As you have already noted ISIS are despised by pretty much every country in the region. The people who are bearing the brunt of ISIS' savagery are Muslims and the people who are fighting them on the ground are Muslims. So why the need to tar all Muslims with the same brush?

Saudis support ISIS, they fund extremism around the world, Turkey appeases them. Actually Christians and the yazidi are bearing the brunt of Isis. As "Kaffir", the Koran regards them as subhuman.

The Koran declares war on those not Muslim, Isis are simply following it.

Smite the neck of unbelievers
47.4: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates.


Bluecorp :"And Crusader, Islam has co existed alongside Christianity for hundreds of years with minimum friction"

.....That's not true Islam invaded Europe and was turned back at Tours in France in the 9th century. Its not a religion of peace.


I don't think liberal western democracy can co exist with Islam, its a reasonable point.

Arsemageddon

After the 2003 invasion every jihadi nutter in the region was drawn to Iraq to fight the occupying forces. This influx of Sunni extremists introduced the ideology that forms the backbone of ISIS. The invasion also helped reinforce the notion of a war between Islam and the west.

This influx was retrospectively called the 'flypaper argument'. For some reason none of those who planned the occupation anticipated that this might happen.

If you have any evidence of extremist Sunni groups operating in Iraq prior to the invasion or sectarian tension that exists on the present scale I'd appreciate if you could post it here.

Your comment is a classic example of
trendy lefty wing western
navel gazing. This is not about the West. It's about
the balance of power in
the Arabic world. Do some basic historical research

It's about more than the balance of power in the Arab world (Arabic is a language). Repeated western intervention in the region and blind support for Israel provides the sense of historical grievance that supplies ISIS with fighters and outside financial support. It's also incorrect to refer to the entire region as Arab, for example neither Iran or Turkey are Arab countries.

We in the west are so effing arrogant we think everything revolves around us.
It's racist and stupid. Muslims have their own history and priorities.

[/QUOTE]

I agree with this statement, hence the point that I made previously. The west should stop trying to intervene militarily in Muslim countries as it repeatedly leads to unintended/unexpected consequences.

Arsemageddon

cruasder777 wrote: »

Saudis support ISIS, they fund extremism

around the world, Turkey appeases them. Actually Christians and the yazidi
are
bearing the brunt of Isis.

Shiites and other non Sunni Muslims are also regarded as apostates.

As "Kaffir", the Koran regards them as
subhuman.

The
Koran
declares war on those not Muslim, Isis are simply
following it.

ISIS and other extremists have a rather warped interpretation of the Koran. I reiterate the point that the vast majority of the 1,500,000,000 Muslims in the world clearly reject the idea that they have to kill non-believers. If they did the world would be in serious trouble.

This notion is like saying all Irish people support the IRA

.....That's not true Islam invaded Europe and was turned back at Tours in France
in the 9th century. Its not a religion of peace.

Bluecorp is right Islam and Christianity existed alongside each other in Muslim majority countries for about 1500 years. If they didn't then why are there are still large Christian communities in Egypt, Iraq, Syria etc., etc. Large Jewish communities existed in every country in the middle east and north Africa until the foundation of Israel.

FFS,.......... The Battle of Tours (C.8th not the C.9th) . Sure if we're dragging up the past what about the Crusades?

I don't think liberal western democracy can co exist with Islam, its a
reasonable point.

I don't see how an ill-informed, intolerant statement such as that can be considered reasonable. Turkey has been a functioning democracy for over 90 years.

cruasder777

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Shiites and other non Sunni Muslims are also regarded as apostates.

ISIS and other extremists have a rather warped interpretation of the Koran. I reiterate the point that the vast majority of the 1,500,000,000 Muslims in the world clearly reject the idea that they have to kill non-believers. If they did the world would be in serious trouble.

This notion is like saying all Irish people support the IRA


Bluecorp is right Islam and Christianity existed alongside each other in Muslim majority countries for about 1500 years. If they didn't then why are there are still large Christian communities in Egypt, Iraq, Syria etc., etc. Large Jewish communities existed in every country in the middle east and north Africa until the foundation of Israel.

FFS,.......... The Battle of Tours (C.8th not the C.9th) . Sure if we're dragging up the past what about the Crusades?




I don't see how an ill-informed, intolerant statement such as that can be considered reasonable. Turkey has been a functioning democracy for over 90 years.

Isis are simply doing what it says in the Koran, no weird interpretation there. Isis totally follow Sharia law. It gives clear instruction in the Koran to cut at unbelievers necks, take their woman as slaves etc.

The Crusades were campaigns to take back the Holy land from Muslim invading armies. Islam conquered at the point of a sword, previously the Holy land, Egypt, Syria, Sudan etc were Christian, made up of peacefully converted Pagan tribes.

Turkey was a military dictatorship as recently as 1980.

Turkey murdered millions of Armenian Christians in the 1915, that's your best example. Who's ignorant ?

I bring up Tours because few are aware invading Muslim armies came within 100 miles of Paris and nearly took Europe, thankfully the Vikings and the Franks smashed them.

Although it was not until 1492 that Islam was driven out of Spain.



http://www.history.com/topics/middle-ages/videos/charles-martel-repels-the-moors

bluecorp

Arsemageddon wrote: »

It's about more than the balance of power in the Arab world (Arabic is a language). Repeated western intervention in the region and blind support for Israel provides the sense of historical grievance that supplies ISIS with fighters and outside financial support. It's also incorrect to refer to the entire region as Arab, for example neither Iran or Turkey are Arab countries.

I was specifically referring to the Arab, (not Arabic thanks for the clarification) world, not Turkey or Iran. As for the historical sense of grievance. This has always being boosted by cynical manipulation of the population by various regimes. It's always easier to control the population by having an external enemy to fear and hate. Israel's existence kept a lot of despotic Arab regimes in power by distracting their populations from the truth that their own leaders are a bigger danger to them. At least until the 'Arab spring' toppled some of them. IS use exactly the same method. It's not unique to Arabs. Putin in Russia is at it right now, North Korea and even Ireland, anti British feelings fomented by the education system distracted many Irish people from the reality that the reason for their current poverty and oppression was entirely down to the crooked and corrupt Irish governments and the church. Castro stayed in power for so long because of American hostility to his regime. The Iranians keep their people onside by ranting about the 'Great Satan'. It's a cynical game designed to keep them in power.

Western intervention is a factor but thats only an excuse. The Sunni, Shia schism is nothing to do with the west. Muslims need to take responsibility for the actions of their own co religionists. Islam is in danger of becoming a death cult.

Wurzelbert

cameramonkey wrote: »

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=723_1421956190

Pretty devastating use of anti tank missiles against Light Tactical Armoured Vehicle. dont know what the vehicles are maybe ex-Iraq army US equipment.

Show what a relatively well equipped and trained unit can do against a ISIS, maybe shows that ISIS are not the danger they are made out to be.

nice...considering how old many of these things are and how long they have been kept in some mossy bunkers in ammo dumps and still work fine...european taxpayers’ money well spent after all...

Markcheese

Wurzelbert wrote: »

nice...considering how old many of these things are and how long they have been kept in some mossy bunkers in ammo dumps and still work fine...european taxpayers’ money well spent after all...

Are they wire guided ? Goes to show how robust old-simple electronics can be -

Wurzelbert

Markcheese wrote: »

Are they wire guided ? [...]

i think so...never fired one myself, remember counting them in our ammo bunkers back then in the (german) army though...

riffmongous

cruasder777 wrote: »

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Isis are simply doing what it says in the Koran, no weird interpretation there. Isis totally follow Sharia law. It gives clear instruction in the Koran to cut at unbelievers necks, take their woman as slaves etc.

The Crusades were campaigns to take back the Holy land from Muslim invading armies. Islam conquered at the point of a sword, previously the Holy land, Egypt, Syria, Sudan etc were Christian, made up of peacefully converted Pagan tribes.

Turkey was a military dictatorship as recently as 1980.

Turkey murdered millions of Armenian Christians in the 1915, that's your best example. Who's ignorant ?

I bring up Tours because few are aware invading Muslim armies came within 100 miles of Paris and nearly took Europe, thankfully the Vikings and the Franks smashed them.

Although it was not until 1492 that Islam was driven out of Spain.



http://www.history.com/topics/middle-ages/videos/charles-martel-repels-the-moors

So much ignorance of history in this post

Wurzelbert

riffmongous wrote: »

cruasder777 wrote: »

So much ignorance of history in this post

really? the paragraph on isis and the quran could certainly be discussed, yet he does have a point...and i am surprised none of the muslim zealots on boards have replied to that yet...wrong forum for them, i guess...the part about the crusades is pretty much spot-on, and the rest of the post is more or less on target as well...

Arsemageddon

cruasder777 wrote: »

Isis are simply doing what it says in the
Koran, no weird interpretation there. Isis totally follow Sharia law. It gives
clear instruction in the Koran to cut at unbelievers necks, take their woman as
slaves etc.

And the bible is also full of wacky ****

The Crusades were campaigns to take back the Holy land from Muslim invading
armies. Islam conquered at the point of a sword, previously the Holy land,
Egypt, Syria, Sudan etc were Christian, made up of peacefully converted Pagan
tribes.

Peacefully converted Christian tribes?? Ya Wha?

Turkey was a military dictatorship as recently as 1980.

Turkey murdered
millions of Armenian Christians in the 1915, that's your best example. Who's
ignorant ?

The Turkish military coup in 1980 was sponsored by the CIA.

...and Christians have never committed genocide? I have heard there was a bit of a kerfuffle in Europe in the 1940's.

I bring up Tours because few are aware invading Muslim armies came within 100
miles of Paris and nearly took Europe, thankfully the Vikings and the Franks
smashed them.

Although it was not until 1492 that Islam was driven out
of Spain.

...the significance of the Battle of Tours was blown out of all proportion, first by medieval Christian chroniclers and later by C19th western historians. The Ummayyads simply didn't have the man power to conquer Europe.

If you would like to discuss this topic in more detail I would suggest that the History forum would be the best place to do so. Anyway I'm off, I have to finish building my fall out shelter in advance of the imminent Russian nuclear attack on Shannon airport :pac:

Sorry to mods for dragging the thread off topic.

galwaycyclist

bluecorp wrote: »

I was specifically referring to the Arab, (not Arabic thanks for the clarification) world, not Turkey or Iran. As for the historical sense of grievance. This has always being boosted by cynical manipulation of the population by various regimes. It's always easier to control the population by having an external enemy to fear and hate. Israel's existence kept a lot of despotic Arab regimes in power by distracting their populations from the truth that their own leaders are a bigger danger to them. At least until the 'Arab spring' toppled some of them. IS use exactly the same method. It's not unique to Arabs. Putin in Russia is at it right now, North Korea and even Ireland, anti British feelings fomented by the education system distracted many Irish people from the reality that the reason for their current poverty and oppression was entirely down to the crooked and corrupt Irish governments and the church. Castro stayed in power for so long because of American hostility to his regime. The Iranians keep their people onside by ranting about the 'Great Satan'. It's a cynical game designed to keep them in power.

Western intervention is a factor but thats only an excuse. The Sunni, Shia schism is nothing to do with the west. Muslims need to take responsibility for the actions of their own co religionists. Islam is in danger of becoming a death cult.

By coincidence this is running on the BBC

Syrian torture: Will photos turn US opinion?
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30689627

The Syria pictures, taken between 2011 and 2013 by a defector code-named "Cesar", show emaciated, bruised, bodies lying in warehouse-types spaces. All the bodies are tagged or accompanied with an index card, showing systematic documentation reminiscent of Nazi methods.

The government of Bashar el Assad has said the pictures are fake or depict bodies of combatants killed in fighting, but forensic and international law experts say the photos are authentic.

Cesar said the pictures show the death of 11,000 individuals and are just the beginning. He claimed at least 150,000 Syrians are in government jails.

So while ISIS are good at using social media to illustrate their treatment of prisoners, you could argue that others were setting the tone before ISIS came to prominence.

riffmongous

Wurzelbert wrote: »

really? the paragraph on isis and the quran could certainly be discussed, yet he does have a point...and i am surprised none of the muslim zealots on boards have replied to that yet...wrong forum for them, i guess...the part about the crusades is pretty much spot-on, and the rest of the post is more or less on target as well...

I'll reply to this bit anyway since I guess you are from Germany? Which part? If you are from the east or north you must be aware of the crusades that took place there which involved conquering and converting 'at the point of a sword' the local pagan slavs?

Wurzelbert

riffmongous wrote: »

I'll reply to this bit anyway since I guess you are from Germany? Which part? If you are from the east or north you must be aware of the crusades that took place there which involved conquering and converting 'at the point of a sword' the local pagan slavs?

yes, i know of the “ostsiedlung” and i am from the south of germany...yet when we talk about “the crusades” in the anglo-irish world we generally refer to the holy land ones...thought that would go without saying...

Wurzelbert

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That was great work, especially liked the hit on the second vehicle. Good drills

yeah, these peshmerga guys have been trained on the milan in germany or possibly france...nice to see they are putting their training to good use...

BlaasForRafa

cruasder777 wrote: »

I bring up Tours because few are aware invading Muslim armies came within 100 miles of Paris and nearly took Europe, thankfully the Vikings and the Franks smashed them.

Although it was not until 1492 that Islam was driven out of Spain.

Don't forget the Battle of Vienna in 1683 when King Jan III Sobieski and his Polish winged hussars broke the Ottoman forces that were on the verge of taking the city.

riffmongous

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Don't forget the Battle of Vienna in 1683 when King Jan III Sobieski and his Polish winged hussars broke the Ottoman forces that were on the verge of taking the city.

Ah but you forgot the 1529 Siege of Vienna

Markcheese

riffmongous wrote: »

Ah but you forgot the 1529 Siege of Vienna

And they used Milan's back then -?
Amazing !!

Savage93

Markcheese wrote: »

And they used Milan's back then -?
Amazing !!

How could that be??? Milan is in Italy and Vienna is in Austria. You'd want some spool of wire to get over the Alps!!!!!:D:D:D:D:D

BlaasForRafa

Markcheese wrote: »

And they used Milan's back then -?
Amazing !!

Imagine the Winged Hussars with Milans! :eek:

Wurzelbert

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Imagine the Winged Hussars with Milans! :eek:

too dangerous...the milans’ backblast would burn off those feather wing things in an instant...would be the singed hussars then...