What one trade would best benefit the Irish game?

Neil3030

Caveats - you can't nominate a trade involving your own province, and they have to benefit the players as well as the clubs.

I would say one of the Ulster centres to go to Munster, perhaps Luke Marshall, and in return, maybe Copeland to go north?

CatFromHue

POC to Ulster

I don't know what transfer would most benefit Ireland, but if Zebo and D Kearney swapped provinces it would certainly benefit this forum.

Otherwise a Leinster back row to Ulster or an Ulster centre to Munster probably.

matthew8

Hard to get a balanced trade so just going to suggest where excess players could go. One of McCloskey/Olding/Marshall to Munster. Bent to Ulster. McLaughlin to Ulster.

b.gud

Ulster definitely need a back row, and since Leinster are tripping over them they would be best placed to lend one, with eenie meenie miney moe used to decide who goes.

Munster def need a centre, the like of McClosky might be a good fit for them and the way they seem to be playing.

Leinster I think would benefit from a scrum half, they have quality there but they are getting on a bit, unfortunately I don't think any of the provinces have a really good option to loan them on this front. Outside of that a real leader up front would be useful for them right now.

I know you are not supposed to do your own province but for the sake of completeness the area where Connacht are lacking most would be out half. Madigan or JJ would surely benefit from a move like that

irishbucsfan

Ryan to Ulster, Marshall to Leinster

EDIT:
Ah wait I can't nominate a trade involving "my own province".

In that case I'd try to find a way to send Marshall to Munster, but I question whether Munster have anything to trade that Ulster would want.

RoundBox11

If changes for next season were ignored and the trade was just until the end of the season (and everyone was fit).... You could make a sort of trade circle with:

Ulster send Luke Marshall to Munster, Munster send JJ to connacht, connacht send Mick Kearney to Leinster and Leinster send Murphy to Ulster

awec

b.gud wrote: »

Ulster definitely need a back row, and since Leinster are tripping over them they would be best placed to lend one, with eenie meenie miney moe used to decide who goes.

Munster def need a centre, the like of McClosky might be a good fit for them and the way they seem to be playing.

Leinster I think would benefit from a scrum half, they have quality there but they are getting on a bit, unfortunately I don't think any of the provinces have a really good option to loan them on this front. Outside of that a real leader up front would be useful for them right now.

I know you are not supposed to do your own province but for the sake of completeness the area where Connacht are lacking most would be out half. Madigan or JJ would surely benefit from a move like that

There is no way we would trade McCloskey.

McCloskey is our best "boshing" 12 and Olding is our best fancy player. Those two we will certainly keep.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ryan to Ulster, Marshall to Leinster

EDIT:
Ah wait I can't nominate a trade involving "my own province".

In that case I'd try to find a way to send Marshall to Munster, but I question whether Munster have anything to trade that Ulster would want.

Ah if it's a sensible trade, it's allowed. I thought I'd include that just to stop crap derailing the thread like "Isaac Boss for Conor Murray" etc.

Scythica

awec wrote: »

There is no way we would trade McCloskey.

McCloskey is our best "boshing" 12 and Olding is our best fancy player. Those two we will certainly keep.

And Luke Marshall is one of our best backups. So we'll keep him too .

I would like to see Madigan to Connacht. With the style they're trying to play I think he would really go up another level. Aki and Henshaw outside him would be bootifal.

bilston

For all the talk of the many Ulster centres it should be pointed out that we can barely put a fit backline together this weekend so right now we actually need every centre we can get!

Neil3030

Agreed on Madigan. He is likely to be away at camp at the same time as Sexton, so his starts will be limited to 12 for most of the season. If he wants a run at 10 he has to move and Connacht would certainly get my vote.

By the same token, if Jack McGrath and Cian Healy are set to be Ireland's first choice looseheads for the foreseeable future, it would be better to have them at separate provinces. Same goes for Moore and Furlong.

I know all of this is underscored by the "what about injuries" argument, but it's just a bit of fun to speculate on trades.

bilston

Here is a very rough "second choice XV" that I spent a whole 2 mins on so you can argue the toss over some selections all you like.

Take your pick Connacht fans...

McGrath
Herring
Furlong
Ryan
O'Callaghan
Ryan
Jennings
Conan
McGrath
Madigan
Gilroy
Marshall
McCloskey
Fanning
Nelson

I count 9 full Irish internationals in amongst that lot and I'd be surprised if L.McGrath, Furlong, Conan and McCloskey aren't capped in the future.

b.gud

awec wrote: »

There is no way we would trade McCloskey.

McCloskey is our best "boshing" 12 and Olding is our best fancy player. Those two we will certainly keep.

I picked McCloskey for 2 reasons, 1 I think he would suit the way Munster play and 2 if all were fit and starting he would probably be behind Olding. I think a lot of the moves that could be suggested here would be ones where the fans of the loaning province would be very reluctant to let the player go. The only exception being the Leinster back row, I mean can Leinster fans even remember all the names of all the quality back rows ye have?

Neil3030

So imagine you had no provincial allegiances, and you were charged with the task of making the most balanced set of 4 matchday 23s out of players who are either currently in Ireland or who are Irish, with as few transactions as possible:

My first attempt would go like this, counting 14 transactions, including the acquisition of Hart and Morris.

Leinster Munster Ulster Connacht

R Kearney Jones Payne Mils
Kirchner Conway Bowe Morris*
Fitzgerald Earls Cave Henshaw
L Marshall* Hanrahan Olding Aki
McFadden Zebo Trimble Gilroy*
Sexton Keatley Jackson Madigan*
Reddan Murray Piennar Marmion
Healy Kilcoyne J McGrath* Buckley
Strauss Casey Best McCartney
Moore Botha Furlong* White
Toner Foley Touhy Donnacha Ryan*
Douglas O'Connell Henderson McCarthy*
Ruddock O'Mahony Dominic Ryan* Muldoon
O'Brien O'Donnell Henry Heenan
Heaslip Stander Conan* McKeon

Cronin Sherry Herring Harris-Wright
Bent Cronin Black Loughney
Ross Archer Fitzpatrick Ah You
Roux O'Callaghan Van der Merwe M Kearney
J Murphy Copeland Diack Wilson*
L McGrath Hart* P Marshall Boss*
Gopperth McCloskey* Humphreys Ronaldson
D Kearney Van den Heever Ludik Leader

b.gud

bilston wrote: »

Here is a very rough "second choice XV" that I spent a whole 2 mins on so you can argue the toss over some selections all you like.

Take your pick Connacht fans...

McGrath
Herring
Furlong
Ryan
O'Callaghan
Ryan
Jennings
Conan
McGrath
Madigan
Gilroy
Marshall
McCloskey
Fanning
Nelson

I count 9 full Irish internationals in amongst that lot and I'd be surprised if L.McGrath, Furlong, Conan and McCloskey aren't capped in the future.

Jack McGrath would make a good back up to Denis Buckley

Tbh outside of a number 10 I think most Connacht fans would be very happy with our 1st choice player. The thing that we really need is a bit more squad depth

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

So imagine you had no provincial allegiances, and you were charged with the task of making the most balanced set of 4 matchday 23s out of players who are either currently in Ireland or who are Irish, with as few transactions as possible:

My first attempt would go like this, counting 14 transactions, including the acquisition of Hart and Morris.

Leinster Munster Ulster Connacht

R Kearney Jones Payne Mils
Kirchner Conway Bowe Morris*
Fitzgerald Earls Cave Henshaw
L Marshall* Hanrahan Olding Aki
McFadden Zebo Trimble Gilroy*
Sexton Keatley Jackson Madigan*
Reddan Murray Piennar Marmion
Healy Kilcoyne J McGrath* Buckley
Strauss Casey Best McCartney
Moore Botha Furlong* White
Toner Foley Touhy Donnacha Ryan*
Douglas O'Connell Henderson McCarthy*
Ruddock O'Mahony Dominic Ryan* Muldoon
O'Brien O'Donnell Henry Heenan
Heaslip Stander Conan* McKeon

Cronin Sherry Herring Harris-Wright
Bent Cronin Black Loughney
Ross Archer Fitzpatrick Ah You
Roux O'Callaghan Van der Merwe M Kearney
J Murphy Copeland Diack Wilson*
L McGrath Hart* P Marshall Boss*
Gopperth McCloskey* Humphreys Ronaldson
D Kearney Van den Heever Ludik Leader

That table really shows the quality of the Leinster academy conveyor.

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

That table really shows the quality of the Leinster academy conveyor.

Fairs fair I counted 27 players (May be more as I lose track of some of the lads at Connacht that were originally from Leinster) that were born in and brought through in Leinster. That said Leinster do have the biggest population so it is no real surprise.

Neil3030

bilston wrote: »

Fairs fair I counted 27 players (May be more as I lose track of some of the lads at Connacht that were originally from Leinster) that were born in and brought through in Leinster. That said Leinster do have the biggest population so it is no real surprise.

Populations:
Leinster: 2.5m
Ulster: 2.1m
Munster: 1.2m
Connacht: 0.5m

I count 66 products of Irish academies above. On that basis the representation above should be 26 players from Leinster, 22 from Ulster, 13 from Munster and 5 from Connacht (after rounding).

I count 25 from Leinster, 19 from Munster, 14 from Ulster and 8 from Connacht.

So it looks like Munster and Connacht are out in front, in terms of homegrown talent exceeding their population prediction, Ulster are dragging their heels while Leinster are about where you'd expect.

Though if someone could proof that for me I'd appreciate it.

irishbucsfan

Ulster lose a lot of players overseas, much more so than the other provinces, just due to university and the likes.

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

Populations:
Leinster: 2.5m
Ulster: 2.1m
Munster: 1.2m
Connacht: 0.5m

I count 66 products of Irish academies above. On that basis the representation above should be 26 players from Leinster, 22 from Ulster, 13 from Munster and 5 from Connacht (after rounding).

I count 25 from Leinster, 19 from Munster, 14 from Ulster and 8 from Connacht.

So it looks like Munster and Connacht are out in front, in terms of homegrown talent exceeding their population prediction, Ulster are dragging their heels while Leinster are about where you'd expect.

Though if someone could proof that for me I'd appreciate it.

I think it's more relevant who develops the talent over who births it. That said, I think the Irish academies are all top notch given out playing populations.

aimee1

Neil3030 wrote: »

Populations:
Leinster: 2.5m
Ulster: 2.1m
Munster: 1.2m
Connacht: 0.5m

I count 66 products of Irish academies above. On that basis the representation above should be 26 players from Leinster, 22 from Ulster, 13 from Munster and 5 from Connacht (after rounding).

I count 25 from Leinster, 19 from Munster, 14 from Ulster and 8 from Connacht.

So it looks like Munster and Connacht are out in front, in terms of homegrown talent exceeding their population prediction, Ulster are dragging their heels while Leinster are about where you'd expect.

Though if someone could proof that for me I'd appreciate it.

when you consider there is only so many games available to develop players, and only so many academy places available then the relevance of the population of each area is diminished somewhat.

Leinster will always have a bigger pool to pick from when it comes to filling those spots so a lot does come down to the coaching and development.

BobCobb

Swap JJ for Dave McSharry

Swap (Jordi + Dom Ryan) for Olding

Everybody wins!

.ak

Murray for Boss. Win win.

aimee1

.ak wrote: »

Murray for Boss. Win win.

zebo for kearney

galwaylad14

Much an all as I hate to admit it, given that he's one of the best players we've ever produced and a huge fans favourite I think a swap of Henshaw for Madigan for benefit Connacht, Leinster and Ireland.

It would benefit Connacht because 10 is the most important position on the pitch but it's our weakest position. Madigan is a talented guy who can make things happen out of nothing and most importantly he's a points kicking machine.

Benefit Leinster because Madigan is not a guaranteed starter and they'd be getting a world class centre (an area they aren't strong in) in exchange.

It would benefit Ireland as Henshaw would get to play his club rugby at a higher level and Madigan would get to play every week in his preferred position.

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ulster lose a lot of players overseas, much more so than the other provinces, just due to university and the likes.

Also you have to factor in to the Ulster situation the resistance to / complete absence of rugby at about 65% 0f the schools. State secondary schools only play football for a variety of reasons, mostly to do with the size of the school. None are big enough to actually have a set of rugby teams. This has the unintended side effect of reducing the number of players who might join a club after leaving school. Catholic Maintained Schools play Gaelic sports and soccer. Rugby is seen in some quarters as an unwelcome 'foreign' game - bizarrely, not soccer. The population of Ulster is not a realistic guide to the number of potential rugby players.

Zzippy

Surprised I haven't seen any of these yet

MOC to anywhere
Axel Foley to anywhere
Neil Doak to anywhere

:pac:

its_phil

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Much an all as I hate to admit it, given that he's one of the best players we've ever produced and a huge fans favourite I think a swap of Henshaw for Madigan for benefit Connacht, Leinster and Ireland.

It would benefit Connacht because 10 is the most important position on the pitch but it's our weakest position. Madigan is a talented guy who can make things happen out of nothing and most importantly he's a points kicking machine.

Benefit Leinster because Madigan is not a guaranteed starter and they'd be getting a world class centre (an area they aren't strong in) in exchange.

It would benefit Ireland as Henshaw would get to play his club rugby at a higher level and Madigan would get to play every week in his preferred position.

Had this conversation with someone who has played with Robbie at high underage level (really means nothing though) a couple months back and he said he would take that offer. I was shocked and tried persuading him not to but in the end, it made a lot more sense. I'd begrudgingly take the deal if I didn't think Madigan would just head straight home after 3 years when Sexton would be entering the twilight with Henshaw still there.

galwaylad14

its_phil wrote: »

Had this conversation with someone who has played with Robbie at high underage level (really means nothing though) a couple months back and he said he would take that offer. I was shocked and tried persuading him not to but in the end, it made a lot more sense. I'd begrudgingly take the deal if I didn't think Madigan would just head straight home after 3 years when Sexton would be entering the twilight with Henshaw still there.

Ya but what are the chances of robbie being here in 3 years time anyway? Basically zero unless something mad happens like maybe qualifying for the Heineken this year and maybe reaching a quarter final in it next year or something.

We all love Robbie but a talented 10 with a 90% goal kicking ratio would be worth more to this Connacht team than Robbie is. Kicking goals is by far the most important job on a rugby pitch and without looking up the percentages now I'd say we're on about 60% for the season which will cost us far more than losing a centre would, especially given our back up centre is one of our better players

CIARAN_BOYLE

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Ya but what are the chances of robbie being here in 3 years time anyway? Basically zero unless something mad happens like maybe qualifying for the Heineken this year and maybe reaching a quarter final in it next year or something.

We all love Robbie but a talented 10 with a 90% goal kicking ratio would be worth more to this Connacht team than Robbie is. Kicking goals is by far the most important job on a rugby pitch and without looking up the percentages now I'd say we're on about 60% for the season which will cost us far more than losing a centre would, especially given our back up centre is one of our better players

Your best kicker is Ian Porter with 8 from 11 kicks 72% Ive no idea where to look up percentages for other players

bilston

Zzippy wrote: »

Surprised I haven't seen any of these yet

MOC to anywhere
Axel Foley to anywhere
Neil Doak to anywhere

:pac:

Three pretty unpopular coaches at the moment, Axel probably less so but that maybe more to do with his legend status at Munster than his tenure to date as coach. It's been a rare situation that all three of the "big" provinces have under pressure coaches and the Connacht coach is a big favourite out west.

total former

bilston wrote: »

Three pretty unpopular coaches at the moment, Axel probably less so but that maybe more to do with his legend status at Munster than his tenure to date as coach. It's been a rare situation that all three of the "big" provinces have under pressure coaches and the Connacht coach is a big favourite out west.

Go back to this time last year, how popular was Lam back then? When Penney was confirmed to be on the way out, Foley was a pretty popular choice among fans to replace him. Not getting into the MOC debate...

I've a lot of sympathy for Doak tbh, the terrible squad depth isn't his fault and the injury rate, like Leinster earlier in the season, is reaching hilarious proportions. Plus no matter how well he does, he knows Kiss is taking over in October anyway.

Squidgy Black

jacothelad wrote: »

Also you have to factor in to the Ulster situation the resistance to / complete absence of rugby at about 65% 0f the schools. State secondary schools only play football for a variety of reasons, mostly to do with the size of the school. None are big enough to actually have a set of rugby teams. This has the unintended side effect of reducing the number of players who might join a club after leaving school. Catholic Maintained Schools play Gaelic sports and soccer. Rugby is seen in some quarters as an unwelcome 'foreign' game - bizarrely, not soccer. The population of Ulster is not a realistic guide to the number of potential rugby players.

The same can be said for Leinster, not to the same extent maybe but it's definitely a factor, the majority of schools don't play rugby, instead they concentrate on GAA.

wp_rathead

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Much an all as I hate to admit it, given that he's one of the best players we've ever produced and a huge fans favourite I think a swap of Henshaw for Madigan for benefit Connacht, Leinster and Ireland.

It would benefit Connacht because 10 is the most important position on the pitch but it's our weakest position. Madigan is a talented guy who can make things happen out of nothing and most importantly he's a points kicking machine.

Benefit Leinster because Madigan is not a guaranteed starter and they'd be getting a world class centre (an area they aren't strong in) in exchange.

It would benefit Ireland as Henshaw would get to play his club rugby at a higher level and Madigan would get to play every week in his preferred position.

Surely Henshaw to Munster makes more sense for good of Irish rugby. Would allow Luke continue at 13 for Leinster (thus more options for Ireland) while Munster be getting the top quality center they been craving (selfishly I really want Robbie to stay mind)

(JJ to Connacht then would have benefited both)

its_phil

total former wrote: »

Go back to this time last year, how popular was Lam back then? When Penney was confirmed to be on the way out, Foley was a pretty popular choice among fans to replace him. Not getting into the MOC debate...

I've a lot of sympathy for Doak tbh, the terrible squad depth isn't his fault and the injury rate, like Leinster earlier in the season, is reaching hilarious proportions. Plus no matter how well he does, he knows Kiss is taking over in October anyway.

Actually Lam was pretty popular last season among majority Connacht fans. Poor season on the table but anyone who keeps half a decent eye on Connacht could see he was trying to introduce a new style (which he got far too ambitious with at times) and there was a sense of direction. That same sense of positive direction is certainly missing with Munster (back to truck it up) and Leinster (some good results over past few weeks but I fear for them in QF's)

Zzippy

bilston wrote: »

Three pretty unpopular coaches at the moment, Axel probably less so but that maybe more to do with his legend status at Munster than his tenure to date as coach. It's been a rare situation that all three of the "big" provinces have under pressure coaches and the Connacht coach is a big favourite out west.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting they should be axed, more referring to their unpopularity with certain posters on here (especially MOC). Lam is certainly a fan's favourite - even if we don't always get the results he has got the team playing a really positive brand of rugby (overly naive sometimes, but hey, at least it's entertaining!).

blackdog1

Ross for botha. Ross is on irfu books and would cost munster nothing. Botha is on 300k plus. Free up big money and a spot for a star signing in the centre.

Personally thought they should have signed Nathan white.

Leinster need a centre.

Ulster could Scholes for dippy. Think Scholes will be a class act plus he could replace Kirchner at Leinster. Dippy is quality and an abrasive type player that ulster needs.

Connaght should sign Kirchner. They really need a quality full back. Mils is a bit long in the tooth. They also need another loose head like dooley. They are a bit light in second row too so someone like Alan O Connor or Stevenson wouldn't be too bad. Also should sign young mcguigan ffrom Newcastle at hooker.

its_phil

blackdog1 wrote: »

Ross for botha. Ross is on irfu books and would cost munster nothing. Botha is on 300k plus. Free up big money and a spot for a star signing in the centre.

Personally thought they should have signed Nathan white.

Leinster need a centre.

Ulster could Scholes for dippy. Think Scholes will be a class act plus he could replace Kirchner at Leinster. Dippy is quality and an abrasive type player that ulster needs.

Connaght should sign Kirchner. They really need a quality full back. Mils is a bit long in the tooth. They also need another loose head like dooley. They are a bit light in second row too so someone like Alan O Connor or Stevenson wouldn't be too bad. Also should sign young mcguigan ffrom Newcastle at hooker.

Really don't need a full back or a loose head at Connacht. Leader, Buckley and Loughney is more than good enough depth unless you want to make 3rd string players. Big ball player in pack at either backrow or second row and a 10 are what Connacht badly need

Neil3030

blackdog1 wrote: »

Ross for botha. Ross is on irfu books and would cost munster nothing. Botha is on 300k plus. Free up big money and a spot for a star signing in the centre.

Personally thought they should have signed Nathan white.

Leinster need a centre.

Ulster could Scholes for dippy. Think Scholes will be a class act plus he could replace Kirchner at Leinster. Dippy is quality and an abrasive type player that ulster needs.

Connaght should sign Kirchner. They really need a quality full back. Mils is a bit long in the tooth. They also need another loose head like dooley. They are a bit light in second row too so someone like Alan O Connor or Stevenson wouldn't be too bad. Also should sign young mcguigan ffrom Newcastle at hooker.

If that's Mike Ross for Botha, why would Leinster want to take on the latter's 300k wages when they have Moore, Furlong and Bent who can cover TH?

Fireball07

Neil3030 wrote: »

If that's Mike Ross for Botha, why would Leinster want to take on the latter's 300k wages when they have Moore, Furlong and Bent who can cover TH?

Was it not discard Botha and send Ross to Munster.

I like the first part, but as much as I like Ross, it'd be a short-term solution at best. I think we should just spend that money to get a foreign TH who is a bit younger.

Neil3030

Fireball07 wrote: »

Was it not discard Botha and send Ross to Munster.

I like the first part, but as much as I like Ross, it'd be a short-term solution at best. I think we should just spend that money to get a foreign TH who is a bit younger.

Ah ok, yeah that makes more sense.

Tox56

its_phil wrote: »

Really don't need a full back or a loose head at Connacht. Leader, Buckley and Loughney is more than good enough depth unless you want to make 3rd string players. Big ball player in pack at either backrow or second row and a 10 are what Connacht badly need

Is Loughney good enough 2nd choice for a side with top 4 ambitions? He's alright but LH is a place top sides would look for two quality or relatively equal options, it's a very demanding position for someone to play every week. Leinster have too many LHs really and Dooley is a massive talent, a move to Connacht could do wonders for him

blackdog1

Fireball07 wrote: »

Was it not discard Botha and send Ross to Munster.

I like the first part, but as much as I like Ross, it'd be a short-term solution at best. I think we should just spend that money to get a foreign TH who is a bit younger.

It would free up cash to get a project th like Herbst with ross to mentor for a year and after that he could do a bit of scrum coaching. God knows he's a better bet than flannery.

Connaght need a good backup lh. Laughney isn't good enough. Out half is a problem but I liked the look of ronaldson. Pity jj left for England.

its_phil

Tox56 wrote: »

Is Loughney good enough 2nd choice for a side with top 4 ambitions? He's alright but LH is a place top sides would look for two quality or relatively equal options, it's a very demanding position for someone to play every week. Leinster have too many LHs really and Dooley is a massive talent, a move to Connacht could do wonders for him

I'd say so, he has been good this season coming off the bench but unfortunately has been blighted with injury which has meant overuse of Buckley who has looked tired the past few weeks. Now competition for Loughney would be welcome but we've more important areas to strengthen. Scrum won't hold us from those ambitions, statistically we've the best scrum in the league at 91% (Sky stats at weekend and remember BBC saying it at Ospreys too) success and it's been a brilliant weapon. Pity about the weekend though.