Appealling to the morals of a conman?

LegacyUser

Appealing to the morals of a conman?
I bought a horse on the internet 3 months ago, it turns out the person who sold her to me lied through his teeth. She is worth E600 less then I paid for her. This guy was asked specific questions at the time of sale about the horse’s history and what type of work she was suitable for, and on this info I decided to purchase. About 2 months after the sale I discovered (through the horse’s behaviour) that the horse did not have the experience I was told she had, and was a borderline dangerous animal in some situations. I rang up the seller at that point (I was actually teary eyed upset on the phone), basically he said its my problem now.

I looked into it and legally I have no leg to stand on as it was a private sale. In general I was very happy with the animal, who has a wonderful temperament and is the innocent party in all of this. A kind neighbour offered to take the horse and fill in the blanks in her education. On riding the horse he discovered she has an old injury and is going lame. The horse lost a shoe 3 week ago and I noticed she was tender after doing so, on getting her reshod the farrier said they can sometimes be tender after shoeing/loosing a shoe. Given that the seller had already told me lied about the horse, at the back of my mind I had a bad feeling about this lameness. In retrospect I feel the farrier may not have wanted to tell me I had an unsound horse.
I didn’t ride her for two weeks and then assessed her last week for soundness (not while being ridden, so I’ve not been abusing the animal), and she seemed fine. So I rang my neighbour and asked him to come see her.
Anyhow, my neighbour, who has over 40 years’ experience with horses, informed me that this horse can never be ridden again due to this injury, which is now beginning to resurface. The horse appeared sound when I bought her because she had been rested for over a year, but since being ridden (I have only been doing very light work, riding once a week), combined with her loosing the shoe (it can leave an animal tender) the injury is beginning to resurface.

The horse will make a lovely broodmare, so her future is secure. However, I am 600 out of pocket.

However, I know someone from his town, they tell me his family are decent people. I also thought he came across as a decent chap, so im wondering if flogging lies about this horse was an isolated incident. Mabie its possible to appeal to him on moral grounds to refund the difference of what the horse is worth. Or am I just kidding myself?

Meathlass

Caveat emptor I'm afraid.

An item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Forgot about it and move on

hfallada

If your neighbour is so good with horses. When didn't you bring him to view the horse with you? Like when you go to buy a car you bring a friend who can tell if the dealer is lying about the car.

Tbh you will just have to suck it up

Rubberchikken

If a person is a conman they don't have morals.
I'm sorry about the horse and the fact that you're out of pocket.

Could he recover given time?

IlmoNT4

Buyer beware....it sounds like you didn't do your due diligence.

I'm afraid its a matter of putting it down to experience.

LegacyUser

About 5 or 6 years ago, I could've written this post myself. I bought a horse from a man and his son who lived near my cousin, so I researched that they were decent people. I brought someone experienced with me, test-rode the horse on 3 occasions (though owner demanded notice each time and refused to come out and meet me when I turned up out of the blue on one occasion, even though I could see he was inside his house - didn't think into it much at the time).

Everything seemed perfect otherwise but within a day of the horse being in my possession his personality turned from sweet and mature to downright dangerous. In hindsight, it became clear that the man and his son had lied through their teeth about his personality, they had almost certainly drugged the horse which is why they needed adequate notice for our arrival and while the horse man I brought with me looked for signs of drugging, they seemed so genuine that he didn't doubt them.

After a couple of weeks, and no answer to any of my phonecalls, I approached the man again, and when I knocked at the door, the son (age 14) answered wearing a cast with a frame around his arm for pins to hold his bones together. I asked him what happened and he awkwardly made up a story about being kicked by a horse at a show, his father then came to the door and told a totally different story about him falling off a friend's horse.

The son had not been present the day I took possession of the horse. I later learned he had been thrown off and injured by my horse one day prior to them getting rid of him.

In short, I didn't have a leg to stand on, I couldn't prove a thing. It's easy with hindsight for it all to be clear.

I spent a small fortune getting various highly experienced horse people to try and improve the horse's terrible temperament, but it wasn't fixable and in the end I was told outright - get rid of him, he's dangerous. There were questions as to him having some form of brain injury as a foal which caused his bad behavior.

I paid 2,500 euro and ended up taking a loss of nearly 2000 euro because I wasn't going to lie to anyone about his personality. I sold him as is, a fine looking horse with wonderful breeding but I was unable to handle his personality and found him dangerous/too challenging for me.

I don't understand how anyone could offload a damaged animal and not have that on their conscience. On top of the loss in the horse's worth, I spent a fortune trying to improve him, having him vet checked etc, even getting an expert who deals with problematic horses - he was at a loss and recommended cutting my losses and being honest about his issues. Most people including the vet recommended he be sent to the factory.

In your case, you can either sell her on for a loss, cut your losses now before spending a fortune trying to solve the issues which are likely unsolvable anyway. At least she can still do something in life, and will be worth something to another buyer.

I grew up with horses and constantly heard about how you should never trust anyone selling them, no matter how much research you do, etc. I didn't take any heed until then. But I have heard multiple other horror stories since then about this same man and son, who are from a very respectable background, still selling horses who display an entirely different personality a day or two after you take them home...

zoobizoo

IS he a horse seller or just someone who happened to have a horse to sell?

Is his reputation at stake?

Leo12

zoobizoo wrote: »

IS he a horse seller or just someone who happened to have a horse to sell?

Is his reputation at stake?

And also could you contact the internet site to inform them of this ? If the internet site want to preserve their integrity then they have to root out conmen.

LegacyUser

Hi, OP here. I think it was just a once off sale. Yes I am aware its a case of buyer beware. I posted on this site wondering if anyone had an idea of how I could (within the law) encourage him to consider his reputation (from what I hear he may have one), and not behave like a rotten lying conman. Im sure his mum wouldn’t be impressed with him.

Markcheese

If it's a one off not much you can do - you could go to the small claims ,but I wouldn't fancy your chances - if you can ,leave feedback on the original internet site , or articles or links to it -

jimd2

All I can suggest is that you could continuously bug him about it for a week or so. Then call over and suggest that if he splits the difference you will leave it that, if you could get him to give you €300 for you to go away he might be tempted.

zoobizoo

whatcanidoaboutthis wrote: »

Im sure his mum wouldn’t be impressed with him.

Well you know, when my old flat mate left us high and dry owing over a grand in rent and bills, I rang her dad and told him exactly what she had done to us.

I got nothing out of it other than the satisfaction of telling him that his daughter was a liar who cheated us out of our money and informed her of some some other bits of her behaviour.

I'd call the mother and tell her what happened... if she's a decent sort that is. What you don't want is creating a feud of sorts.

I know that if some one called my mother about something like that she'd be morto and would want me to sort it out.

Depends on what type of outcome you want.

ManOfMystery

I'm 99% sure you're going to have to chalk this one up to experience.

In saying that - I was owed some money by a flatmate (and ex-friend) many years ago who tried every trick in the book to avoid repaying me. Eventually I threw the arms up and made a point of mentioning it to his father, who I knew to be a decent and proud man. He chewed the head off his son and the money was in my hands the following day.

whitey1

Leo12 wrote: »

And also could you contact the internet site to inform them of this ? If the internet site want to preserve their integrity then they have to root out conmen.

Is there a way to rate the seller...like on eBay?

FluffyAngel

i see the problem not as the money ,but the trust in humankind ..you took his word ,trusted him and he has twisted that back on you

the 600 euro is minscule in life ..

Dont lose trust in life



(i would be very very careful calling him a conman ,defamtion laws and all that )

Ave Sodalis

As someone who worked with horses that were being bought and sold for many years, there really is very little you can do except learn from the experience. Never look to buy a horse without someone who knows them well. Always ask for a week or two of a trial (will probably be in owners yard) if you plan on keeping the horse. Always get the horse vetted before you buy it.

In terms of broadmare, does she have the breeding behind her? Is it all marked in a book? Is she worth breeding from? It's all well and good saying she'll be good for breeding but you could be left with a foal that's worth nothing if there's no breeding behind it, particularly since you don't know how talented the mare is. Is her dam and sire marked in her book? Is that the correct book you were given? If he sold you a dodgy horse, be careful he didn't give you a dodgy book.

uck51js9zml2yt

Its a private sale and you have absolutely no come back.

For all he knows, you injured the horse in the 3 months you had it..i'm not saying this is true but its a tack he could take.

you didnt get the horse evaluated independently, chalk it up to experience and move on.

blacklilly

OP firstly the owner may have been oblivious to this injury you describe.

Secondly you've relied heavily on one opinion from your neighbour in terms of what your horse will/won't be able to do, I would think it normal to acquire another opinion from a professional perhaps. What injury is your neighbour saying the horse has? Perhaps you haven't given the horse enough rest for the injury it has. It can take months for some injuries to heal.

Thirdly, why did you not ask to take the horse on a short trial basis? did you get it vetted before buying?

You have literally no recourse here from what I can see.

I've bought and sold any horses and I always turned away from buying if the owner wasn't willing to give the horse to me on a short trial.

Littlekittylou

sup_dude wrote: »

In terms of broadmare, does she have the breeding behind her? Is it all marked in a book? Is she worth breeding from? It's all well and good saying she'll be good for breeding but you could be left with a foal that's worth nothing if there's no breeding behind it, particularly since you don't know how talented the mare is. Is her dam and sire marked in her book? Is that the correct book you were given? If he sold you a dodgy horse, be careful he didn't give you a dodgy book.

Agreed.
I know a little about horses not as nearly as much as the above poster though and regarding breeding if she does now have injury issues or temperament issues she might not be suitable.

To be honest there are too many horses out there right now anyway. A foal with no good breeding is meat and you have to invest in care etc. It's the care and time that makes it worth something. The fact that you have a foal means nothing it's practically worthless. And in fact you will have to invest more in that.

Listen cut your losses. It's the number one mistake people make they chase after it all. The guy is a snake (if he knew he might not have) but he is what he is. His family are not going to take your side why would they? The more you engage with con men the more you will be abused and conned by them. Just avoid all further business with the man. I am not sure what you can do with the mare. As you can see now trying to make money out of her is proving difficult. You can't really. She might end up being one of those many horses you see around the country constantly out to grass. It's very common.

I am not saying you are at fault or anything. This is NOT your fault if you were duped. But I would say your best courses of action is to realize you were duped and never associate with the man. I would not make a drama dragging any family in to this. You would only get burned. For all you know he thinks he sold you a good horse. Frequently foals do demonstrate the temperament of a dam. You are aware of her issues and if you are ever trying to sell a foal and later down the line something happened how would you feel?

I think you need some expert advice about this. I personally would simply let it go and never deal with him again. Life is too short and you don't want to risk making an enemy. You don't know what this person is capable off.

Telling his mother seems a little bizarre. I would not consider it simply because I think it's messy and juvenile. It's nothing to do with her. You could try the small claims court. But I would wager it's going to cost you more effort and time. Writing it off now is probably going to save you more in the long term than you have lost.

Life does not always go your way. Roll with it. I am sorry you have had this experience. But now you know what he is like avoid him. It is what it is.

This guy does not have your best interests at heart but his own. I wouldn't get into trying to get your way around him. Conmen have a way of outmaneuvering you. Hold your hands up and say 'I lost this one'. Walk away.

It's not worth it. Sorry OP.