Speedwork during "base building" phase?

Amadeus 2014

Greetings...

Quick bit of context first. Once upon a time, a long long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I used to be a runner. Mostly marathons and I peaked at a weekly mileage well north of 70 following a P&D plan. Since then I've gotten older, fatter, busier at work and broadly stopped running.

I'm not a total write off (yet), I'm a whisker under 6' and 74.5kgs and I'm currently doing a light diet of easy runs, trying to just build up frequency of runs and distance and get back in the habit with a vague plan to build to a marathon in Oct. Currently in the 8 miles at 8:30ish range for my "l"sr.

So here's the question. I have a new Garmin 620 and it tracks my VO2 max, HR, recovery times, effort etc. I think its currently misreading based on an artificially low max HR as I've never done a hard session wearing it. That plus looking for a bit of variety has left me pondering a speed session tomorrow. Nothing drastic, maybe 6*400m reps with a 600m jog recovery.

Good idea or bad idea? Does that sound like a sensible session with adequate recovery? All thoughts welcome!

jebuz

Are you considering a speedwork session purely just to bump your Vo2max reading on your watch? Why? The reading while already proven to be quite flattering on most garmins bears no real measure of performance, it's simply an indicator and not a very good one. I barely take notice of the recovery advisor either, just listen to the body not a watch.

If you're building a base, then focus on that for now. The purpose is to condition your aerobic system and a track session may stunt those adaptations. Also, you've been out of the game for a while so jumping into a speed session will probably only improve your risk of injury. When you feel your aerobic fitness is getting stronger and you're comfortable maybe then work in some strides at the end of a run or a fartlek. October is a long way away so steady does it. Best of luck!

RacoonQueen

Is this THE Amadeus?!

mossym

the vo2 measurement on my garmin tends to go higher after a solid easy/steady run where i hold a good solid pace with little hr variation than it does after a hard interval session. at the same time i don;t put much faith in it, it varies all over the place, one run can drop it significantly and make you think you lost a bunch of fitness overnight

i wouldn't sweat it.

RayCun

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Is this THE Amadeus?!

this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVikZ8Oe_XA

no... but I think it is the guy who used to post as --amadeus--

Amadeus 2014

RayCun wrote: »

this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVikZ8Oe_XA

no... but I think it is the god who used to post as --amadeus--

FYP

Netwerk Errer

Amadeus 2014 wrote: »

Greetings...

Quick bit of context first. Once upon a time, a long long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I used to be a runner. Mostly marathons and I peaked at a weekly mileage well north of 70 following a P&D plan. Since then I've gotten older, fatter, busier at work and broadly stopped running.

I'm not a total write off (yet), I'm a whisker under 6' and 74.5kgs and I'm currently doing a light diet of easy runs, trying to just build up frequency of runs and distance and get back in the habit with a vague plan to build to a marathon in Oct. Currently in the 8 miles at 8:30ish range for my "l"sr.

So here's the question. I have a new Garmin 620 and it tracks my VO2 max, HR, recovery times, effort etc. I think its currently misreading based on an artificially low max HR as I've never done a hard session wearing it. That plus looking for a bit of variety has left me pondering a speed session tomorrow. Nothing drastic, maybe 6*400m reps with a 600m jog recovery.

Good idea or bad idea? Does that sound like a sensible session with adequate recovery? All thoughts welcome!

Bit late with a reply. That session sounds completely reasonable to me if the pace is right a base phase workout. It wouldn't be a great Vo2 max indicator though because of the long recovery's and I wouldn't advise any Vo2max workouts in this phase of training.

Speedwork and development is a vital and often overlooked part of base training. The idea of never running faster than tempo pace during it is a myth. Personally, I will hit every pace from sprint to recovery during this phase. The effort and recovery is crucial though. You want to have full recovery between reps.

Speed development and touching on all efforts should be a focal point of base training. Even reps of fast 400's can be an aerobic stimulator if done right and adds a different pace into the equation.

TFBubendorfer

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Speedwork and development is a vital and often overlooked part of base training. The idea of never running faster than tempo pace during it is a myth.

Actually, that's a debate that will go on forever. My (former) coach would be very much on the other side of that argument. Apart from the odd strides I would indeed be doing no running at faster than tempo pace during base training.

wrstan

Here's an article by McMillan in Running Times August last year entitled "When speed work sabotages your gains"

Some interesting quotes from the article:

Arthur Lydiard learned this more than 50 years ago. Too much speed work in your base phase will interrupt your fitness development. Olympic bronze medalist Lorraine Moller, whose training was Lydiard-based, says that in the era of New Zealand track domination, "Going to the track to do speed work during the base phase was considered the height of folly and something only the ignorant would do."

Lorraine Moller was the interviewee on the last 2 MarathonTalk podcasts

Given this damaging effect [the negative effect of lactic acid on mitochondria], large and frequent increases in lactic acid during a period when you're building your aerobic energy system (mitochondria and aerobic enzymes) are a big no-no.

• Delay frequent (1-2 times per week) speed training until 4-8 weeks before your peak race. Limit any speed workouts during base to once every 3-6 weeks.
• Keep all of your training during the first 60 to 70 percent of the season either slower than lactate threshold or short enough to avoid breathing hard.

McMillan acknowledges that not all coaches agree with this philosophy and that there are contrary views.

ECOLII

@wrstan I think the points you have listed are ones than most would actually agree with

McMillan : "Too much speed work in your base phase will interrupt your fitness development."

Without a doubt too much will however you if you manage duration and and recovery there is no reason why you can't add it

Moller: "Given this damaging effect [the negative effect of lactic acid on mitochondria], large and frequent increases in lactic acid during a period when you're building your aerobic energy system (mitochondria and aerobic enzymes) are a big no-no."

Again large and frequent the focus during base is to keep any sort of lactate build up to a minimum through short duration and long recovery and this is a point which is highlighted in the latter point

"Keep all of your training during the first 60 to 70 percent of the season either slower than lactate threshold or short enough to avoid breathing hard."

With regards whether or not to use forms of speed work in base comes down to a number of factors:

* Is it a single year peak or multi peak?
* Do you have enough time to incorporate a transition phase to prep the muscles, connective tissues and nervous system to cope with later speed work
* Are hills/ weight training used to supplement training
* Are any forms of plyometrics done

Personally I am a big fan of keeping in touch with all speeds for a number of reasons going beyond just physiological but in terms of the 400s described above personally I wouldn't see a huge benefit in this type of session in base phase as it is too far removed from the goal of base phase (aerobic development) and too slow for physiological stimulus for non energy pathway development.

Ceepo

Amadeus 2014 wrote: »

Greetings...

Quick bit of context first. Once upon a time, a long long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I used to be a runner. Mostly marathons and I peaked at a weekly mileage well north of 70 following a P&D plan. Since then I've gotten older, fatter, busier at work and broadly stopped running.

I'm not a total write off (yet), I'm a whisker under 6' and 74.5kgs and I'm currently doing a light diet of easy runs, trying to just build up frequency of runs and distance and get back in the habit with a vague plan to build to a marathon in Oct. Currently in the 8 miles at 8:30ish range for my "l"sr.

So here's the question. I have a new Garmin 620 and it tracks my VO2 max, HR, recovery times, effort etc. I think its currently misreading based on an artificially low max HR as I've never done a hard session wearing it. That plus looking for a bit of variety has left me pondering a speed session tomorrow. Nothing drastic, maybe 6*400m reps with a 600m jog recovery.

Good idea or bad idea? Does that sound like a sensible session with adequate recovery? All thoughts welcome!

Why not bring some hill work into your runs.
It doesn't have to be structured just run on a hill course once or twice a week in the build phase. Then make it a bit more structured something like the 400'S you mentioned.
You dont have to run the hilly course hard just try hold the pace you are running.
This will benefit you both in aerobic strength and running strength as well as developing good running form.

Tergat1

RE Base Phase some key points below:

1) You MUST lay an Endurance, Speed and Strength base during this phase, this is very important.

2) Do NOT be afraid to use "Speed" during the base, what everyone on here needs to be careful about is what your definition of "Speedwork" is, that's the key!!! Doing "Alactic" sprint work (Using ATP-CP System) is perfectly fine and works very well for all types of athletes from 800m-Marathon. These should be used predominantly on a short steep hill and for 6-10 seconds with 2-3 mins walk recovery. These are fantastic for laying a "Speed Base", recruiting fast twitch fibers, increasing recruit able fiber pool, improving leg strength and power output.

3) Doing this type of Speedwork there is no detrimental affect to the aerobic system and can be done twice weekly if you wish during the base. Obviously build up number of these sprints carefully over the weeks.

4) We can work "aerobically" during the base phase using many different forms of training such as those listed below. Just use your imagination and manipulate the volume of reps, no of reps per set, length of reps and recovery between reps and sets. That's the key, it's not the paces!!!!

- 200m reps at 3000m pace (2 sets of 6-10*200m with 40-45 secs between reps and 3 mins between sets)
- 300m reps at 5000m pace (3 sets of 5-6*300m with 60 secs between reps and 3 mins between sets)
- 400m reps @ 10km pace
- 1km reps @ 10 mile race pace
- 1 mile reps @ HM Pace
- 2 mile reps @ Marathon Pace
Etc etc so many different ways these are just some examples.

Also for your 800m/1500m type athletes they can train "Aerobically" by doing reps at 800m and 1500m pace as follows:
- 2-3 sets of (6-10*100m @ 800m pace) with 45 secs between reps and 3-4 mins between sets
- 2-3 sets of (6-8*150m @ 1500m pace) with 40 secs between reps and 3-4 mins between sets

This type of work allows an 800m/1500m type athlete to work Aerobically but at paces far more specific to their event, so biomechanically better for them also. Again you can vary this many different ways. The KEY point is these are "aerobic" workouts for these athletes and fully confirmed when you take heart rates and lactate readings and also use RPE scale.

The bottom line is get away from thinking anything below 5km pace is "Anaerobic" it is NOT, it's all about manipulating some factors such as volume, sets, rep length, recovery etc this is what dictates the affect of the workout.

SO in the base phase lay an Endurance, Speed and Strength base not just endurance. This prepares your body for the full benefits of the "Specific" training and the structural loading.

Tergat

ECOLII

This thread seems to be bringing all sorts of boardsies back from the dead

Welcome returns

TRR_the_turd

Good post Tergat1 but have you changed your philosophy on base training? I think a few years ago I remember you recommending more of a lydiard type base as described above with lots of aerobic miles. What you prescribe above is more akin to Magness! Any reason for the change in opinion!

Tergat1

No philosophy is the same but I certainly do have more emphasis on a speed and strength base over the past 2-3 years than I previously would have. Canova has preached this for years followed by Magness of course and I've put it to practice and it works!!! A base should not be just about easy to high end aerobic running, this is a MISTAKE!!!

Tergat

demfad

I think it should be pointed out that these are (apart from hill sprints) LT sessions. These LT reps can be used at any time in the base of course. However, the intensities reached are very close to the ventilatory threshold (the point at which breathing becomes hyperventilated). This intensity might only be reached at the end of a 20 minute threshold run for example.

These intensities should be trained (mostly) in sequence to maximise development.

Therefore in base training, intensities from very easy to Aerobic threshold should be trained first (including the odd progression runs going over the ventilatory threshold for a few minutes.)

Then continous threshold runs can be added to train more fibres aerobically, then its time for the various LT reps to ever more surgically push the threshold up.

FT athletes will utilise more of the reps (targetting more FT fibres aerobically).


The mention of a Magness/Canova "philosophy" is a little confusing as this isn't anything new. I believe Lydiard used fartlek runs for this purpose late in base training and many of the coaches of his philosopy do also. OK. The Canova/Magness stuff use the hill sprints and the main difference beween Canovas base and Lydiards are the pace of the longer runs. Lydiard base athletes run them fastish. Canova's very fast.

Strides are essential though and should be used strategically throughout to ensure good running form. Also a periodic 1500-3000 paced short aerobic intervals session (starting early in the base) can add to good form, keep injuries at bay and help tie the whole base together.
(More a mechanical than LT session).

Hill sprints are good too. Canova uses them to recruit the maximum amount of fibres, so they are woken up and can be used for other training. It also works the heart muscle.
Care is needed with these and a week or two of an uphill stride session might be advisable to lower injury risk.

THe LT reps should be used, and can be used at any time in the base phase, but to greatest affect after continous work from easy to threshold has been maximised.

Amadeus 2014

Absolutely brilliant, detailed and very thought provoking answers so a huge thank you to those who have given time and expertise.

Bringing it back slightly to idiot layman language the message I am hearing is that even in an extended, pre-race-training phase there should be variety to the paces used in training and that mono paced slow running is not the way to go. A mix of fartlek, hills and intervals at a max of 80% effort and with good recovery to supplement the standard runs seems to be the recommendation - have I got that right?

demfad

Amadeus 2014 wrote: »

Absolutely brilliant, detailed and very thought provoking answers so a huge thank you to those who have given time and expertise.

Bringing it back slightly to idiot layman language the message I am hearing is that even in an extended, pre-race-training phase there should be variety to the paces used in training and that mono paced slow running is not the way to go. A mix of fartlek, hills and intervals at a max of 80% effort and with good recovery to supplement the standard runs seems to be the recommendation - have I got that right?

I think so. If youre mileage is very big IMO youd do easy runs first, add steady runs, add threhold runs, then add the LT reps. Use strides to keep youre running form good/avoid injury.

For moderate mileage: mix it right up, vary it, enjoy it! (Use strides to keep youre running form good/avoid injury.)



As were talking about base training: just a note on mileage especially relevant for masters runners:

From John Kellogg.

"Returning to the issue of training volume, remember that high mileage days are more important than high mileage weeks. Even for younger runners, high mileage blocks of three to five days provide ample stimulus to the aerobic system. We tend to operate on a seven day cycle, but that’s not always necessary as far as running training goes! For example, you might build one of your higher training weeks around a Saturday long run by going very short on Friday and Sunday, then going higher on Monday through Thursday. A short, easy swim or bike workout could be substituted for running on Friday or Sunday or both. Where aerobic fitness is concerned, five high days out of seven are just about as good as seven out of seven, and the two low days can actually be somewhat therapeutic."

Getting in high volume days, or blocks of days is more important than high volume weeks in base training.

Knowing high volume days and high volume blocks of days is what triggers aerobic development should make us think twice about how we structure our base training and the foolishness of placing primary emphasis on end of week mileage.

Week volumes arent proportionate to aerobic development. Consistant high days, and blocks of days (followed by recovery) are.

Tergat1

Amadeus 2014 wrote: »

Absolutely brilliant, detailed and very thought provoking answers so a huge thank you to those who have given time and expertise.

Bringing it back slightly to idiot layman language the message I am hearing is that even in an extended, pre-race-training phase there should be variety to the paces used in training and that mono paced slow running is not the way to go. A mix of fartlek, hills and intervals at a max of 80% effort and with good recovery to supplement the standard runs seems to be the recommendation - have I got that right?

Always use a variety of paces, this is important. The only difference is that at certain points in the training plan you will emphasize certain paces over others, BUT you will always maintain what you have worked hard to build. Never leave anything behind, always keep in touch with each energy system throughout the year. This is nothing new coaches have preached this for years.

Demfad is perfectly right in what he/she says, those workout types I listed are done later in base after foundations of easier-steady running have been laid. Training always moves from "General" to the "Specific" (for your event). For an athlete preparing for a 5km race a long run at controlled paces 80-100 mins is working "General Endurance" while a final workout 10 days out from the key race of say 5*1200m @ 5km pace is "Specific".

Using a variety and mix of paces throughout a training plan can reap many rewards!!!

Tergat