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Builder's contract

  • 19-01-2015 3:04pm
    #1
    Monfreid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 102 ✭✭


    Hello,
    I have a quote from a builder with a breakdown of all the different costs. I would like to have a contract but he doesn't do one, he said that the certifier signs off each stage of the construction and that the certifier has an insurrance so that cover everything ... Can I ask the builder for a written contract or do I have to contcat a sollicitor to write one for me?

    Thank you


Comments

  • #2
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    you absolutely need a contract.

    ask your certifier to supply you with one


  • #3
    Monfreid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 102 ✭✭Monfreid


    ok, so I was planning to have the same person to act as Desin and Assigned certifier so I need a contrcat with him, I don't need a contract with the builder, is that correct?


  • #4
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Monfreid wrote: »
    ok, so I was planning to have the same person to act as Desin and Assigned certifier so I need a contrcat with him, I don't need a contract with the builder, is that correct?

    NO

    if your certifier is RIAI, get him to organise an RIAI contact between you and the builder.

    so what im saying is get your certifier to organise the contract between you and your builder.


  • #5
    Monfreid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 102 ✭✭Monfreid


    ok thank you for the clarification


  • #6
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    NO

    if your certifier is RIAI, get him to organise an RIAI contact between you and the builder.


    so what im saying is get your certifier to organise the contract between you and your builder.

    +1


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  • #7
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ...doesn't have to be an RIAI contract. Of all the jobs we do, RIAI contract is in the minority.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #8
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    Out of interest galwaytt - what forms of contract do you encounter most?

    (Leaving aside the GCCC ones for public projects)


  • #9
    Will23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭Will23


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    NO

    if your certifier is RIAI, get him to organise an RIAI contact between you and the builder.

    so what im saying is get your certifier to organise the contract between you and your builder.

    It sounds like you have not yet engaged a design professional on the project.

    Also note the Design/Assigned certifier may not wish to get involved in the Contract administration of the project on site.

    and if they do they should charge you for this as it's a separate role to acting as certifier.

    Also be aware of your obligations under health & safety legislation.


  • #10
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Will23 wrote: »

    Also note the Design/Assigned certifier may not wish to get involved in the Contract administration of the project on site.

    and if they do they should charge you for this as it's a separate role to acting as certifier.

    100% correct.

    Don't confuse to role of AC and contract administration...they are different. The AC role has nothing to do with putting in place/and or administrating a building contract.

    There are lots of jobs being undertaken out there at present where there is an (RIAI) architect acting in the traditional role of architect (i.e. contract admin, etc.) and another/separate (RIAI) architect acting as AC.

    I happen to be acting as architect and AC on a project...I know this may sound pretentious...but I met the clients on site last Friday for a regular client/architect/contract admin/progress meeting...today I called to site to do an inspection as AC. The clients just happened to be there too and I simply told them, today I am not your architect, I am your AC, and carried on with the inspection I wanted to do, did the inspection, and left. :)

    BTW, I'm also PSDP...that's for Wednesday's visit! :)


  • #11
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Will23 wrote: »
    It sounds like you have not yet engaged a design professional on the project.

    Also note the Design/Assigned certifier may not wish to get involved in the Contract administration of the project on site.

    and if they do they should charge you for this as it's a separate role to acting as certifier.

    Also be aware of your obligations under health & safety legislation.

    Just to be very clear here ill spell it out slowly...

    I didn't advise the assigned certifier ADMINISTRATING the contract, just to organise the getting of one, which was what the question was.

    It would be preferable if the AC was the administrator, but that should be a separate engagement.


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  • #12
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Drift wrote: »
    Out of interest galwaytt - what forms of contract do you encounter most?

    (Leaving aside the GCCC ones for public projects)

    To be honest, most of our contracts are an inhouse bespoke one direct with client, and only sometimes via a contractor.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #13
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    I'd be quite cautious about allowing any of our clients to use a contract written by agents of the supplier.

    Not trying to cast any aspersions on yours - I'm sure it's fair and professional - but there are some less scrupulous suppliers of building products who like to demand all sorts of inappropriate terms.


  • #14
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    galwaytt wrote: »
    ...doesn't have to be an RIAI contract. Of all the jobs we do, RIAI contract is in the minority.

    Developed jointly between the RIAI and the Law Society and tested in the courts down the years - it is foolish to use any other.

    Foolish for the client that is.


  • #15
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Drift wrote: »
    I'd be quite cautious about allowing any of our clients to use a contract written by agents of the supplier.

    Not trying to cast any aspersions on yours - I'm sure it's fair and professional - but there are some less scrupulous suppliers of building products who like to demand all sorts of inappropriate terms.

    Well you need to look at the other side: the RIAI one is designed for the RIAI, no one else. As for the law society/RIAI linkage, well they did advise RIAI to not sign any DC/AC work, did they not ? And are RIAI members signing such, now ? Yes they are. So you have to look at each on a case-by-case basis.

    If people need legal advice on a contract - any contract, you seek it from a solicitor, not an architect.

    This we do/have done on a regular basis (to client solicitors) and we've yet to have a problem with it. It's also formed part of client paperwork for bank/mortgage applications and I can guarantee you it if it was suspect they wouldn't hand over monies to anyone if they thought it wasn't fair & watertight.
    And I include both UK and Ireland jurisdictions as part of the experience.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #16
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Developed jointly between the RIAI and the Law Society and tested in the courts down the years - it is foolish to use any other.

    Foolish for the client that is.

    In your opinion you mean.

    For clients, they should use a solicitor.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #17
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    galwaytt wrote: »
    In your opinion you mean..

    Every hen thinks she lays the best egg. :)


  • #18
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Developed jointly between the RIAI and the Law Society...

    Just to point out that the RIAI contract was developed between the RIAI, CIF (Construction Industry Federation) and SCS (Society of Chartered Surveyors).

    The Law Society were not involved in drawing up this form of contract.


  • #19
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    galwaytt wrote: »
    It's also formed part of client paperwork for bank/mortgage applications and I can guarantee you it if it was suspect they wouldn't hand over monies to anyone if they thought it wasn't fair & watertight.

    I agree with most of what you say and I'm not holding the RIAI form up as a gold standard. It has its downsides and particularly I'd imagine in your case for a predominantly factory based system. I'm saying a contract should be fair to both sides and many forms that are out there are not.

    Regarding the above though - I have seen leading "pillar" banks provide mortgages based on some TERRIBLE and wrong paperwork that put their clients in serious soup. They really don't review paperwork well at all.


  • #20
    RORY O CONNOR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 270 ✭✭RORY O CONNOR


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    NO

    if your certifier is RIAI, get him to organize an RIAI contact between you and the builder.

    so what im saying is get your certifier to organize the contract between you and your builder.

    You can use a Chartered Engineer or Chartered Building Surveyor as your AC and you don't need to use an RIAI form of contract. Better to keep the contract very simple as to terms and conditions, what you are getting for your money, what you are not getting , defects liability period, retention fees etc.

    The builder should undertake to do the works in compliance with the building regulations as part of the contract-don't let him fob you off saying its the ACs role. He is supposed to be competent and as part of that competency he should know and build to the current regs.


  • #21
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    RORY O CONNOR wrote: »
    You can use a Chartered Engineer or Chartered Building Surveyor as your AC and you don't need to use an RIAI form of contract. Better to keep the contract very simple as to terms and conditions, what you are getting for your money, what you are not getting , defects liability period, retention fees etc.

    The builder should undertake to do the works in compliance with the building regulations as part of the contract-don't let him fob you off saying its the ACs role. He is supposed to be competent and as part of that competency he should know and build to the current regs.

    The RIAI contract is the simplest tried & tested contract, why deviate from this ? Do you have direct experience of dealing with building contracts on domestic builds ?


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  • #22
    RORY O CONNOR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 270 ✭✭RORY O CONNOR


    BryanF wrote: »
    The RIAI contract is the simplest tried & tested contract, why deviate from this ? Do you have direct experience of dealing with building contracts on domestic builds ?


    Yes!


  • #23
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    BryanF wrote: »
    The RIAI contract is the simplest tried & tested contract, why deviate from this ? Do you have direct experience of dealing with building contracts on domestic builds ?

    Its out of date would be one reason imho.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #24
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Its out of date would be one reason imho.

    Why so?


  • #25
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    A strawman assertion.
    GTT, a contractor, prefers to sign his customers up to his own form of contract.
    And who could blame him.

    The_Ant_Bully_Stan_Beals_and_Lucas.jpg


  • #26
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    galwaytt wrote: »
    It's also formed part of client paperwork for bank/mortgage applications and I can guarantee you it if it was suspect they wouldn't hand over monies to anyone if they thought it wasn't fair & watertight.

    Yes. Banks have shown us that they can be trusted.


  • #27
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Yes. Banks have shown us that they can be trusted.

    I agree with your cynicism - and the list is longer than banks btw. ..... and right now its often the same people you're dealing with : even the form's the banks use are out of touch. Witness comments on here recently that banks were not accepting the accurate, higher, figures in modern building suppliled by a poster in his application and were using figures 10 years out of date.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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